I'm shooting a short documentary with a GL2, MA300 XLR adapter, and Azden SMG1X mic, and edited on iMovie. The on-camera dialogue limited to a few head shots (due to limited audio gear). I want to tell the story with pictures but some narration neccessary. Forget the computer mic. Any suggestions on what I need to produce good audio in post?

Thanks, Ed Space

Ed,

Are you asking about how to create good narration (voice over), how to improve the dialog you've already recorded, or both? Couldn't quite tell from your post what specifically you were looking for.

- Martin

Thanks for the reply, Martin.

I'm asking how to record good VO audio on my Mac 10.5 computer. The computer mic audio is very poor. What kind of mic do I need? Am I asking to much of iMovie to handle? Final Cut is down the road.

Ed

What you need is experience. Nothing will substitute. Good luck.

Hi Ed.

The order of importance is as follows.

1. The script
2. The voice talent.
3. The recording environment
4. The audio recording chain
5. The microphone

Another way to say this is that if start with a good script and have a qualified VO Talent, you can typically put them in a clothes closet with a 20 year old analog tape recorder and hand them a $100 microphone and end up with something that NOBODY will question when they hear it on a narration track.

On the other hand, you can spend endless amounts of money on numbers 3 thru 5 - and never get beyond mediocre results because all you're doing is making better and better recordings of poor quality scripts and/or performances.

The REASON for the rigid order is easy to understand if you think about it a bit.

A bad script plus a good performance is just that - a good performance of a BAD script. End result: Poor

And a good script can certainly be ruined by a bad performance.

But given a good script and a good performance, the quality differences made by the RECORDING differences will typically be minor.

Want proof? Watch David Letterman. Watch the great moments in Presidential speeches gag he does about Bush. You'll hear recordings that by today's standards are CRAPPY - recordings of Franklin Roosevelt, or JFK, or the like, done decades ago on gear we'd laugh at today - but we are still mesmerized by the incredibly powerful communications they represent.

A great read of a good script even if it's plagued by a little hiss, or a lackluster level, or some other problem STILL communicates well!

Sure we want to record things well. But the fact is that a great script, read well - generally will not be greatly affected by the recording gear - simply because today's modest priced microphones and recording equipment are typically WAY good enough to record things just fine, thank you.

So the answer to recording "good VO audio" on your Mac 10.5 computer is to start with a good script and a good reader.

While I don't generally recommend using your camcorder mic directly, the truth of the matter is that if you took your camcorder into a quiet coat closet and read directly onto a rolling tape with the on-camera mic using narrator quality voice level, tone and diction - you'd probably end up with a usable track. Yeah, you'd have some minor camcorder transport noise, but if the read was good, that stuff should be WAY below the recording noise floor and listeners could ignore that pretty easily.

So, yes, it's better to use an exterior plug in mic to separate it from the camera noise. But that's not absolutely critical.

So don't worry so much about what you record ON. Worry more about WHAT you record.

Hope that helps.

Good luck.

Now there is a great example of a very useful reply, and above it, unfortunately a more or less completely useless one yet from a very knowledgeable user. I like helpful folks on this board, like Bill in this particular case.

Hey Ed, lots of options. It sounds like you want advice on a mic and other gear and possibly advice on production. To talk about that, we need to know how much you can spend. I'm a big believer that good audio doesn't have to cost a lot, but it will cost something. What you really want for the mic is a large diaphragm condenser (good ones start at about $400), a way to power it and something to record to. First off, I wouldn't record to the computer. The preamps aren't likely to be that great, and computers are noisy (fans, hard drives whirring, etc.). You're better off recording to the camera in a quiet, acoustically dead environment, like a closet with lots of coats or something hanging in it. I'm unfamiliar with the mic you mention (and Azden in general), but the brand doesn't seem well regarded. Still, if you can get the mic close and record in a quiet, dead environment, humble gear can sound surprisingly good. A better mic is always a good investment though, and decent phantom power units can be had for about $120. Then you'll want other stuff, like a dedicated recorder, mixer, etc. Only you can decide if all that's worth the expense, but there's no question you'll get better results.

While I support 98% of Bill's comment, saying that what you record it on isn't important is erroneous. The on-camera mic is very likely to pick up transport noise, especially if it is one of the cheap "built in" models instead of a removable XLR connected hyper cardioid, ESPECIALLY if used in a quiet room or closet.

Recording to tape and then importing into the NLE is not a bad way of doing VO on a budget; however, I strongly recommend using a separate mic connected via balanced audio cable with the camera some 20+ feet away where possible.

In terms of mics, one can get a reasonable quality mic from a pawn shop for very little money or spend many thousands of dollars. I used to use Shure SM58 mics back when I had no budget, then "invested" $100 in an Apex medium diaphragm condenser on a boom stand with a pop filter (very important). Now I have an AKG C2000 I'm quite fond of.

Bill is right that the most important things are the script and the performance but the wrong mic or the wrong mic-ing technique can ruin an otherwise brilliant read.

You guys seem to be overlooking the fact that it is perfectly possible to record great audio directly into the computer, just not very often using the usually somewhat marginal stock soundcard and its iffy analog inputs, etc. Removing the OEM soundcard or disabling the on-board audio and replacing it with a good quality external firewire or USB audio interface, coupled with a pro-quality mic and perhaps a compact mixing desk for convenience in level control and monitoring, plus software such as Soundforge, Audition, etc, or even freeware Audacity, can give fully professional results. After all, a good interface is also needed for monitoring during the rest of the postproduction sound editing and mixing tasks, so why not use it to record your VO too? Roger McGuinn released a video a couple of years ago showing how he put together some the songs on his recent CDs using a laptop running Audition as the recording device, worth taking a look at.

Actually, my old Mac G3 blue and white 450 is running pro tools LE with the digi 001 breakout for exactly that sort of thing. I can fly program audio to talent in my closet soundbooth as well as send them "wet" or "dry" mixes of their v/o track in "real"time (a couple of millisecond delay due to cables and processing - no one seems to mind).

What you need is experience. Nothing will substitute. Good luck.

Hi Jimmy,

"The longest journey begins with but one step" I need to know what I need to add "some" post narration to my project. My on tape audio was recorded with camera mounted XLR condenser mike. What kind of mic do I need for narration and do I record on computer or on camera tape? Thanks for reply.

Ed

You guys seem to be overlooking the fact that it is perfectly possible to record great audio directly into the computer, just not very often using the usually somewhat marginal stock soundcard and its iffy analog inputs, etc. Removing the OEM soundcard or disabling the on-board audio and replacing it with a good quality external firewire or USB audio interface, coupled with a pro-quality mic and perhaps a compact mixing desk for convenience in level control and monitoring, plus software such as Soundforge, Audition, etc, or even freeware Audacity, can give fully professional results. After all, a good interface is also needed for monitoring during the rest of the postproduction sound editing and mixing tasks, so why not use it to record your VO too? Roger McGuinn released a video a couple of years ago showing how he put together some the songs on his recent CDs using a laptop running Audition as the recording device, worth taking a look at.

Thanks for reply, Steve. Your method of using the computer to record VO is beyond my pay grade. Need a more basic system. Ed

I have a similar set up, a Canon XM2, a MA300 XLR adaptor using a Senni M66 mic and for the V/O:

1] Put tape in camera

2] Point your Mic at mouth of V/O person

3] Record.

. .and just let the tape roll and roll and roll. Mistakes included.

What I have also done is to have the visuals run on a VCR VHS tape on a TV, sound off, and use a remote/zapper for the V/O to review again and again. It works and it is very easy=budget to attain. Once you have the "camera" V/O audio tape done capture that to your NLE and just align what you want to where you want it.

Oh, the one I did exactly like this won a competition for a Central London Public authority where the spoken word was essential for the video.

Grazie

ps: my "boom-pole" consisted of several bamboo canes gaffered together. I have subsequently traded up to a Rode Boom pole with internal wiring - such is progress!

Kind of a wild off the wall thought, but I've been very pleasantly surprised by the little Sony PCM-D50. Generally I'm not too impressed by these little all in one mic - recorder setups, but for the price it's really quite good. After recording it's really simple to upload the recording over USB and it doesn't have the complexity, bulk, cabling, etc associated with recording into a PC. You'll probably get handling noise when hitting the record button, but what the heck, easy enough to cut off the noisy sections in post, or add the little remote control.

It has a standard 1/4 - 20 camera tripod socket and sits on a little table top tripod just fine

I think it sounds reasonably good and I give it really high marks for simplicity.

Just a thought, for what it's worth.

Hi Ed.

The order of importance is as follows.

1. The script
2. The voice talent.
3. The recording environment
4. The audio recording chain
5. The microphone

Another way to say this is that if start with a good script and have a qualified VO Talent, you can typically put them in a clothes closet with a 20 year old analog tape recorder and hand them a $100 microphone and end up with something that NOBODY will question when they hear it on a narration track.

On the other hand, you can spend endless amounts of money on numbers 3 thru 5 - and never get beyond mediocre results because all you're doing is making better and better recordings of poor quality scripts and/or performances.

The REASON for the rigid order is easy to understand if you think about it a bit.

A bad script plus a good performance is just that - a good performance of a BAD script. End result: Poor

And a good script can certainly be ruined by a bad performance.

But given a good script and a good performance, the quality differences made by the RECORDING differences will typically be minor.

Want proof? Watch David Letterman. Watch the great moments in Presidential speeches gag he does about Bush. You'll hear recordings that by today's standards are CRAPPY - recordings of Franklin Roosevelt, or JFK, or the like, done decades ago on gear we'd laugh at today - but we are still mesmerized by the incredibly powerful communications they represent.

A great read of a good script even if it's plagued by a little hiss, or a lackluster level, or some other problem STILL communicates well!

Sure we want to record things well. But the fact is that a great script, read well - generally will not be greatly affected by the recording gear - simply because today's modest priced microphones and recording equipment are typically WAY good enough to record things just fine, thank you.

So the answer to recording "good VO audio" on your Mac 10.5 computer is to start with a good script and a good reader.

While I don't generally recommend using your camcorder mic directly, the truth of the matter is that if you took your camcorder into a quiet coat closet and read directly onto a rolling tape with the on-camera mic using narrator quality voice level, tone and diction - you'd probably end up with a usable track. Yeah, you'd have some minor camcorder transport noise, but if the read was good, that stuff should be WAY below the recording noise floor and listeners could ignore that pretty easily.

So, yes, it's better to use an exterior plug in mic to separate it from the camera noise. But that's not absolutely critical.

So don't worry so much about what you record ON. Worry more about WHAT you record.

Hope that helps.

Good luck.
Thanks Bill for some good advice. I continue to be amazed at the unselfish help offered on this forum. Years of writing copy and making presentations will help W/items 1 & 2. The on camera audio was recorded with an XLR condenser mic mounted on a MA300 XLR adapter. I can detach the mic. Are you saying I can rewind the tape, step into a closet and record VO on my recorded tape using my detached mic? Patience Bill, audio is new territory to this old photographer. Ed

I agree wholeheartedly that a good script and a good performer are the top priorities.

For the script, I'd say keep it simple and straightforward. I'm very much of the "less is more" school of thought when it comes to voiceover. As for finding talent, do you have a community, college or public radio station near you? If so, ask around, or put up a flyer asking for help. Many of those old-school disc jockeys and news announcers have great voices and are comfortable reading into a microphone. If you're lucky, maybe you can even borrow their studio to do the recording, especially if it's a nonprofit/educational kind of documentary.

As for the recording environment, if you can't find an actual recording studio, there are other options. What you're looking for is a room that's as close to acoustically "dead," with no echoes, as you can find. Small carpeted libraries with lots of books on the shelves are great, since the irregularly shaped books act as natural acoustic baffles. A while ago, Douglas Spotted Eagle had an online tutorial about how to make a recording box out of foamcore and acoustical foam. I'm sure you could Google it and find it.

Remember to get the microphone close to your talent. A cheap mike 1.5-2 feet away from the talent, in a room with no echoes, will ALWAYS sound better than an expensive mike 3-6 feet away in a hard, echoey room.

If you are looking to invest in some equipment to help you, I have a couple of ideas:

1. Audio Technica makes a very good large diaphragm microphone, the AT2020, that does a nice job for about $99. You'll need some kind of preamp or mixer and a recorder, or if you have a camera with XLR inputs and phantom power, you can probably record right into the camera and be O.K. AT just came out with a USB version of the same mike [ http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/552791-REG/Audio_Technica_AT2020_USB_AT2020_USB_CARDIOID_CONDENSER.html ]
which might be just the ticket for your needs.

2. I recently picked up a Zoom H4 compact flash recorder for under $200. I'm really impressed with the quality of the built-in mikes. I've recorded some radio documentaries with this unit, and would have no hesitation using it for voiceover work as well.

One last thought: check out "Producing Great Sound for Digital Video" by Jay Rose (Focal Press). It's a great primer on all things audio, including some good, practical, low budget suggestions for voiceover production.

You definitely want to detach the mic. You will pick up camera noise, like the tape transport, if you don't. In fact, if you go the closet route, your going to want to quiet the camera even further, maybe by putting a coat over it or something.

I have a similar set up, a Canon XM2, a MA300 XLR adaptor using a Senni M66 mic and for the V/O:

1] Put tape in camera

2] Point your Mic at mouth of V/O person

3] Record.

. .and just let the tape roll and roll and roll. Mistakes included.

What I have also done is to have the visuals run on a VCR VHS tape on a TV, sound off, and use a remote/zapper for the V/O to review again and again. It works and it is very easy=budget to attain. Once you have the "camera" V/O audio tape done capture that to your NLE and just align what you want to where you want it.

Oh, the one I did exactly like this won a competition for a Central London Public authority where the spoken word was essential for the video.

Grazie

ps: my "boom-pole" consisted of several bamboo canes gaffered together. I have subsequently traded up to a Rode Boom pole with internal wiring - such is progress!
Bless you, Grazie! I have read many of your postings and have been impressed with your "Yankee ingenuity" (pardon the expression) approach to video problems.

For step #2 I assume you mean detached mic. I have no shame Grazie, what does NLE mean?

Planned a trip to the UK but cancelled when the dollar tanked, but still hope to go. Like to see you sometime. Thanks,

Low Budget Ed

Thanks for reply, Steve. Your method of using the computer to record VO is beyond my pay grade. Need a more basic system. Ed

Yoiu don't need to get expensive or too fancy. A decent audio interface can be had for a couple of hundred, a small mixing desk from Mackie, Tapco, or Behnringer another hundred, and a couple of hundred for a proper microphone and you'll be in business. For that matter, you can get a USB mic designed for Podcasting that will combine the mic and interface for a few hundred as well., perhaps something along these lines - http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/503926-REG/Rode__Podcaster_Studio_B_H_Kit.html As for software, Audacity is available free in both Windows and Mac versions and does a very capable job.

NLE = Non Linear Editor (your edit software/hardware)

You have a mic attached to the MA300? Then that is the one to use - you WILL need a longer xlr cable. Pop a fresh tape in the camera and just record the v/o.

Grazie

Thanks Bill for some good advice. I continue to be amazed at the unselfish help offered on this forum. Years of writing copy and making presentations will help W/items 1 & 2. The on camera audio was recorded with an XLR condenser mic mounted on a MA300 XLR adapter. I can detach the mic. Are you saying I can rewind the tape, step into a closet and record VO on my recorded tape using my detached mic? Patience Bill, audio is new territory to this old photographer. Ed

Ed,

No, there's no reason to take an "overdubbing" approach.

Leave the original shot tape alone.

Just load up a fresh tape, and record your audio directly to it.

You can just leave the lens cap on the camera, or if you like, point the camera at your face and hold up papers with the scene/take info, or even just flash finger symbols to indicate the "takes" or "breaks" or whatever you like.

All that matters is that you record your narration to tape, then digitize that into your NLE just like your visuals.

You combine them in your NLE at the time of editing.

It's the simplest way to do VO narration.

Good luck.

Yoiu don't need to get expensive or too fancy. A decent audio interface can be had for a couple of hundred, a small mixing desk from Mackie, Tapco, or Behnringer another hundred, and a couple of hundred for a proper microphone and you'll be in business. For that matter, you can get a USB mic designed for Podcasting that will combine the mic and interface for a few hundred as well., perhaps something along these lines - http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/503926-REG/Rode__Podcaster_Studio_B_H_Kit.html As for software, Audacity is available free in both Windows and Mac versions and does a very capable job.
Thanks again, Steve. The USB system sounds interesting. Will check with B&H.

Ed,

No, there's no reason to take an "overdubbing" approach.

Leave the original shot tape alone.

Just load up a fresh tape, and record your audio directly to it.

You can just leave the lens cap on the camera, or if you like, point the camera at your face and hold up papers with the scene/take info, or even just flash finger symbols to indicate the "takes" or "breaks" or whatever you like.

All that matters is that you record your narration to tape, then digitize that into your NLE just like your visuals.

You combine them in your NLE at the time of editing.

It's the simplest way to do VO narration.

Good luck.
Thanks for an uncomplicated way to record my VO. I will record exactly as you have advised.

Ed

You have a mic attached to the MA300? Then that is the one to use - you WILL need a longer xlr cable. Pop a fresh tape in the camera and just record the v/o.

Grazie
Spot on, Grazie. Will get a long XLR cable, step into my clothes closet, and have at it. Thanks again,

Ed

NLE = Non Linear Editor (your edit software/hardware)
Thanks Shaun. Will check website.

Ed

You definitely want to detach the mic. You will pick up camera noise, like the tape transport, if you don't. In fact, if you go the closet route, your going to want to quiet the camera even further, maybe by putting a coat over it or something.
Thanks Marco. I'll get a long XLR cable and make a camera cover out of 2in foam & gaff tape.

Ed

Thanks Marco. I'll get a long XLR cable and make a camera cover out of 2in foam & gaff tape.

Ed


It seems to me like using the camera as the recording device for VO is going the long way around. If you can record directly into your workstation with a decent mic and interface, you'll have much more flexibility and control plus potentially much better audio quality in general ... for example, the camera would not allow you to "punch in" and record multiple takes of a line you were flubbing yet such a facility is standard equipment with most audio software. You also don't have to capture the tape afterwards.

Take a look at this clip on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGb_Z44iymA

like this...

http://centrance.com/products/mp/

Regards,

Ty Ford

like this...

http://centrance.com/products/mp/

Regards,

Ty Ford

Oh Ty:

Why did you have to post that, now I really want one!

Dan

$149 at B&H?
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?ci=0&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=desc&InitialSearch=yes&O=jsp%2FRootPage.jsp&A=search&Q=*&bhs=t&shs=micport+pro&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=desc&InitialSearch=yes&O=jsp%2FRootPage.jsp&A=search&Q=*&bhs=t&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=submit

CHEAP!!!! I think I need to get one! Thanks, Ty.

I agree wholeheartedly that a good script and a good performer are the top priorities.

For the script, I'd say keep it simple and straightforward. I'm very much of the "less is more" school of thought when it comes to voiceover. As for finding talent, do you have a community, college or public radio station near you? If so, ask around, or put up a flyer asking for help. Many of those old-school disc jockeys and news announcers have great voices and are comfortable reading into a microphone. If you're lucky, maybe you can even borrow their studio to do the recording, especially if it's a nonprofit/educational kind of documentary.

As for the recording environment, if you can't find an actual recording studio, there are other options. What you're looking for is a room that's as close to acoustically "dead," with no echoes, as you can find. Small carpeted libraries with lots of books on the shelves are great, since the irregularly shaped books act as natural acoustic baffles. A while ago, Douglas Spotted Eagle had an online tutorial about how to make a recording box out of foamcore and acoustical foam. I'm sure you could Google it and find it.

Remember to get the microphone close to your talent. A cheap mike 1.5-2 feet away from the talent, in a room with no echoes, will ALWAYS sound better than an expensive mike 3-6 feet away in a hard, echoey room.

If you are looking to invest in some equipment to help you, I have a couple of ideas:

1. Audio Technica makes a very good large diaphragm microphone, the AT2020, that does a nice job for about $99. You'll need some kind of preamp or mixer and a recorder, or if you have a camera with XLR inputs and phantom power, you can probably record right into the camera and be O.K. AT just came out with a USB version of the same mike [ http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/552791-REG/Audio_Technica_AT2020_USB_AT2020_USB_CARDIOID_CONDENSER.html ]
which might be just the ticket for your needs.

2. I recently picked up a Zoom H4 compact flash recorder for under $200. I'm really impressed with the quality of the built-in mikes. I've recorded some radio documentaries with this unit, and would have no hesitation using it for voiceover work as well.

One last thought: check out "Producing Great Sound for Digital Video" by Jay Rose (Focal Press). It's a great primer on all things audio, including some good, practical, low budget suggestions for voiceover production.
Thanks Brian, some good practical ideas here. Script: I'll take your advice and limit VO to short intro at beginning. I want pictures to tell the story. My years of writing copy will assure a simple, concise script. Talent: Since this is a low budget non-profit project, I'm the talent. Again, years of making presentations with mics to large groups will help. Equipment: I have GL2 with XLR input, a good condenser mic W/long cable, and a walk-in clothes closet. Did find the Audio Technica a low cost possibility.

Ed

It pulls phantom power from the USB port? That's pretty cool.

Me too me too!

It pulls phantom power from the USB port? That's pretty cool.
If I read it right, the condenser mic must be powered. No?

Ed

Condenser mics need to be powered, yes.

Condenser mics need to be powered, yes.
Thought so. Thanks for confirming Marco.

Ed