I am not a seasoned pro... FAR (far far) from. Yet I probably mirror the abiliity level of a lot of folks on here.... want better than amateur, cannot afford pro equipment as a rule... Yet want/wish I could produce pro results on a beer budget. (I'll give that up grudgingly... stay with me as I progress. More posts coming up on this journey.)

This weekend I had a chance to compare many things "pro" against some more "amateur" stuff.... All I can say about the difference is "WOW".

This post is about boom poles only.

I have a "home made" aluminum painters pole boom pole. I was rather proud of my cleverness and thought it was not too bad for under $50 - with mount. I used a Gizmo carbon fiber pole this weekend. The difference?

No comparison.

Lets' talk about it. The overall weight may have tipped towards the 2 piece aluminum. But the 6 section carbon fibre allowed me to distribute the weight towards the butt of the pole as I played out the needed length. Winner? Carbon Fiber.

Noise. Anything and everything I did, touched even thought about in the 2 piece aluminum pole translated into sound... and yes I was using a shock mount. For handling noise? Winner? Carbon Fiber.

There was a time or two I used a fish pole mount for a static boom. In that case, tie.

Overall.... I want a carbon fiber boom pole. It is worth it. If you shoot a single movie you can use a painter's pole.... but the poor sound guy is gonna have to wear gloves and be GOOD! Rent a carbon fiber pole. If you plan to shoot more than 1 film, buy a carbon fiber pole.

Next up...softies and blimps from a low end perspective.

Your observations are very astute Chris, and they mirror my own experience. While I have done my share of DIY and cross-purpose gear, it seems I usually come around to the realization of needing/wanting the best gear to do the job right. As others on the forum have observed, buy right and it hurts once, buy wrong and it hurts every time you use inadequate gear.

I have been through a similar experience with my audio interface for studio and location recording. I bought a cheap M-Audio interface, then a not-so-cheap but still mid grade MOTU. Finally I'm a happy owner of an incredible interface made by Prism Sound and there is simply no comparison.

Rode makes a 10 ft boom (about three feet collapsed) that can be had for $100, or $110 depending on where you shop. It's pretty sturdy, doesn't sag too much even when fully extended, and you can thread an XLR cable through it (you'll have to sever and re-attach one end, though, to get it through). I haven't used it like boom operator yet, only had it on C-stands, so I can't speak for handling noise, but it seems pretty decent on all other counts.

One thing is that it's somewhat heavier than other booms I've held. The thickest extension is also too thick for the fishpole holders that a lot of people use to hold the boom (they're $9 compared to the $65 Boom Mate or whatever the "official" piece is called), at least with the foam on, so I have to waste that one extension generally when mounting it on a C-stand, and use the second extension.

Noise. Anything and everything I did, touched even thought about in the 2 piece aluminum pole translated into sound... and yes I was using a shock mount. For handling noise? Winner? Carbon Fiber.

There are both carbon fiber and aluminum sectional boom poles. The weight is less on the carbon fiber, but for longer lengths, the aluminum poles work out better since they don't bend nearly as much. But while the pole is part of the handling noise solution, the biggest difference will be heard in the shockmount itself. Until Sennheiser released their shock mount for the 8000 series, I was very disappointed in the mic. The Ktek shockmount simply didn't provide enough isolation for me, but once a mount with more isolation was installed on my boom pole, most of the handling noise went away.

So, while you do get less handling noise with a carbon fiber boom pole vs. a painter's pole, the mounting system tends to make a bigger difference.

Wayne

I have fairly low end pro stuff and it works fine. Lightwave MiniMount (the old one, not the weird looking new one) and a Gitzo carbon fiber 11' boom, uncabled. Sometimes I wish that I had gone for the cabled pole but when I bought this many years ago, the cheapest cabled poles were in the $800.00 range and up and I couldn't afford it. The Gitzo has been great, have dragged it all over the world and it has never let me down.

Wayne's correct, buying a high quality mic mount is more important than debating aluminum vs. carbon. Either work well if you have a quality isolated mount.

Dan

I got a gitzo mount that was $65.

Thank you all for the replies, especially Wayne and Dan. For the record I was using the same elastic corded shock mount on both poles, so that does not account for the difference in handling noise I experienced (my clumsiness might), but the fact it was a painter's pole and not an aluminum boom pole could also explain it. I am confident aluminum boom poles are better engineered for sound than paint.... and vica versa. Still... my first good boom pole will be carbon fiber.

I hope a lowly amateur perspective is useful... and it is certainly more so when experts chime and and offer their perpectives from a "low level".

Again, thanks to all.

One other thing to remember about boom poles vs. painters poles. While there certainly are externally wired boom poles, a majority of boom ops/sound recordist in the US purchase internally wired poles. This means you don't have the cable possibly generating additional handling noise. For whatever reason, in Europe externally wired boom poles are still the preferred way of wiring a boom. But all of these things factor into handling noise:

- pole (you found that out)
- shock mount
- microphone (and how well internally the mic is isolated and mounted)

All three of these things determine how handling free your recording will be. Change any one of the three and your results will change. Although as I said earlier, the shock mount probably makes the biggest difference, followed closely by the microphone.

Wayne

Man, this is rule one. Don't skimp on the pole. I agree with Wayne though. Sometimes aluminum is better than carbon fiber. It's not that much heavier, and can be way stiffer. As far as the K-Tek Avalon series goes, the aluminum has slightly higher handling noise, but to me, the extra stiffness is worth the tradeoff.

Is the rode considered skimping?

While there certainly are externally wired boom poles, a majority of boom ops/sound recordist in the US purchase internally wired poles.
Wayne

Hmm, I have been told "it's and east coast/west coast thing." not sure I believe that either.

I use a Carbon Fiber, 16 ft. K-tek with an external cable. No problem. It's a skill like anything else. I can extend or retract while booming hot to accommodate weird spaces I get crammed into, like Senator's offices on Capitol Hill where I'm forced to be 4 feet from one person and eight feet from another and my back is up against a literal wall.

The guys I know who use internal coiled cables say they can sproing closed on you unless they are tightened. I'd miss the ability to change length. The cords eventually lose their form and you can't close the pole down all the way and the coiled cables will kink. They also say you have to be careful of noise caused by the cable moving around inside the boom. None of that make any sense to you, Wayne?

Regards,

Ty

A lot of that makes sense Ty. You do have to tighten the knuckles on the boom or they will collapse on you, but you don't have to get them so tight that you can't make adjustments onset. Wexler's boom op, Don is amazing at doing this. Me, not so. ;-)

You could be right on the internal/external being an east coast west coast thing. This poll shows US use internally wired poles more often:
http://www.trewaudio.com/poll/?poll=21
But I haven't worked on the east coast, only middle America and the west coast, so I don't know how things fare there.

I have one of my three boom poles that won't close all the way because the cable is stretched, but that pole is 10 years old, so I kind of expect that. I always teach people how to do maintenance on the boom poles, so the cables are less likely to not get stretched, but it does happen. Noise is probably the only thing on your list that I have rarely seen or heard be a problem. You have to shake the boom pretty good to get cable noise and if you're handling the boom that roughly, you're going to have a whole lot more issues first. ;-)

Wayne

As useful as Trew Audio is to the audio industry, I'm hesitant to believe any Internet polls. They are too easy to finagle.

Good research is valuable, but like good audio, good research takes time and energy.

Regards,

Ty Ford

As useful as Trew Audio is to the audio industry, I'm hesitant to believe any Internet polls. They are too easy to finagle.


I agree. But this poll mirrors what I see in the west and mid sections of the country. Again not having worked on the east coast, I don't have a clue what is more popular there.

Wayne

i've got an avalon w/ internal coil. The internal is great for fast geurilla setups, but its true, the coiled cable inside *can* move around and make noise, especially if you are extended quite far. Knowing that its not much drama to handle it accordingly, but its pretty clear that would be a preference thing.

I have the Avalon as well, and as Wayne says, you've got to shake that sucker hard to get any noise, and in that case you'd most certainly get rumble or other problems. It's never ruined a take. Mine won't collapse all way any more, by the way. But that's okay, because I never close it all the way anyway.

Is the rode considered skimping?

I'd like to know the answer to this as the Rode Boom Pole seems the cheapest in price out of the options discussed on this thread.

But if I was to go the K-tek route (carbon fiber or aluminum), for someone new to the boom pole world and still fairly new to the AV world, would you guys recommend getting a boom pole that's internally coiled or no? It seems both require careful handling to avoid getting noise. So, what's easier to work with?

The nice perk of the route without the coiled cable is that it's cheaper, although on the aluminum Avalon, the price diff doesn't seem too bad. There's about a $70 price difference on the carbon fiber though - if I was going to go that high.

For me I use a external cable, that way if any thing should go wrong just switch the cable out. I guess I like to see whats going on.

One of my poles is a Panamic carbon fibre job, 29" collapsed, 88" extended, four sections. A very useful range for one man band work as it will reach nicely from the back seat of a car through to cover the driver underneath yet extend far enough for most walking/talking shots. I am an 'outside wiring' man, using a curly cable but supported on each section with cable ties, loose enough to slide, to stop rattling. This gives the option of changing length during a shot. No droop.
Another pole I have is 49" collapsed to 160" extended. it's another carbon fibre, 4 section Panamic. A bit droopy with a Sennheiser 816 in its gag on the end at full extension, but perfectly controllable.
With these two poles I find I can cover nearly every situation. Longer poles are available, of course.
From time to time I lubricate the poles with dry silicone spray, the sort used for curtain track. I would hesitate to use WD40 or any wet lubricant.

I'm not a boom expert by any means, but I think one think to consider is how you'll use it. Now, I knew getting mine that rare was the time I would ever use it like a boom operator. I'd either be working as a one-man band, which would mean putting it on a C-stand, or I'd have another crew member operate it.

The rode, while it seems sturdy, and is 10 ft when fully extended, is probably one of the bulkier/heavier poles you'll come across. I understand that a boom operator probably wants the lightest rig that'll do the job, and the Rode is definitely a heavy boy. Not a problem for me, but might be something for you to consider.

Sasha - sounds like a good reason to go with the external cable. I'll remember that.

Josh - thanks for the heads up on the weight of the Rode. That's something to definitely consider if I decide to go that route.

Nick, The Panamic sounds cool, but I tried searching online for it and couldn't find anyone selling it or a price. I have a feeling that it'll be expensive though. I liked that in my Google search I saw how on Panamic's site, it said that the pole is designed in such a way that any part can be replaced if something goes wrong. That sounds pretty cool. Thanks posting your pole maintenance advice too.

I myself am really looking to buy something entry level if I can only find it new, but preferably something better if I can find it used (hopefully a Boom Pole is something which can be a safe purchase used if the old owner seems like he too good care of it.

If anyone has any other brands and models, please do post. For every brand and model that's been discussed so far, I've tried to looking on bhphoto.com, ebay, the classifieds here, etc. A good part of the decision on what to purchase is what's available.

Panamic dealer in USA is:
Trew Audio (Nashville)
220 Great Circle Road, Suite 116, Nashville, TN 37228-1798
Tel: 800-241-8994 (Toll-free)

I suppose worth considering if you are after something hard to get and are happy to pay the international carriage is BB List (http://www.bblist.co.uk)

It is very popular over here for professionals to buy and sell used gear, and the system really works well. Just a thought.

"for someone new to the boom pole world and still fairly new to the AV world, would you guys recommend getting a boom pole that's internally coiled or no?"

Internally cabled all the way. Using an externally cabled pole is exponentially harder. You really don't want to skimp on the pole. I consider the K-Tek to be the absolute minimum. Not only are cheaper poles usually heavier, as Josh points out, but they also usually have way more flex. The K-Tek (especially the aluminum) is very stiff, and that's a good thing.

I prefer internally wired so I can shorten or lengthen the pole quickly with no cable management issues like hanging loops of cable. My preference only...

Edit: Just saw Marco's post and I agree 110%. I had used the carbon fibre K-Tek but BOUGHT the aluminum K-Tek Avalon. NO regrets. For docs and training/promo videos, the 9-ish feet is plenty for me.

Panamic dealer in USA is:
Trew Audio (Nashville)
220 Great Circle Road, Suite 116, Nashville, TN 37228-1798
Tel: 800-241-8994 (Toll-free)

I suppose worth considering if you are after something hard to get and are happy to pay the international carriage is BB List (http://www.bblist.co.uk)

It is very popular over here for professionals to buy and sell used gear, and the system really works well. Just a thought.

Thanks for the advice Nick.
I saw Trew Audio as the USA seller on panamic's site, but didnt see any panamic merchandise listed on there except something about a panamic mount part of a used package. Perhaps if I call.

I checked out the BB list and just saw one thing for Panamic as part of a $2800 GBP audio kit so that's kind of out. He is willing to split up, but I have no idea what to offer. I'll keep an eye on here though for Panamic and other stuff.

"for someone new to the boom pole world and still fairly new to the AV world, would you guys recommend getting a boom pole that's internally coiled or no?"

Internally cabled all the way. Using an externally cabled pole is exponentially harder. You really don't want to skimp on the pole. I consider the K-Tek to be the absolute minimum. Not only are cheaper poles usually heavier, as Josh points out, but they also usually have way more flex. The K-Tek (especially the aluminum) is very stiff, and that's a good thing.

I prefer internally wired so I can shorten or lengthen the pole quickly with no cable management issues like hanging loops of cable. My preference only...

Edit: Just saw Marco's post and I agree 110%. I had used the carbon fibre K-Tek but BOUGHT the aluminum K-Tek Avalon. NO regrets. For docs and training/promo videos, the 9-ish feet is plenty for me.

Thanks for the feedback guys. So it seems internally is definitely the way to go, and I keep seeing votes for the K-Tek Avalon Aluminum so I think that's what I'm leaning towards. it's approx double the price of the Rode, but that's not too bad - esp if I can find it used somewhere.

Shaun - you said the 9ish feet is plenty for you. Looking on bhphoto.com (k-tek avalon | B&H Photo Video (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?ci=0&shs=k-tek+avalon&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=desc&InitialSearch=yes&O=jsp%2Fproductlist.jsp&A=search&Q=*&bhs=t&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=submit)), it seems that the max size for the K-tek aluminum avalon is 6.7'. If I don't get an Avalon, and get the KE110CC instead, that hits the 9ft mark and seems to be a little bit more. I also may be able to get this used from the same seller that sold me my XH-A1 a few days ago.

As mentioned before, if anyone has anything else they'd like to suggest for a boompole, then please do as I'd like to look around new and used for options.

My next round of questions once I get this settled will be on the shockmount to attach the mic to this boompole, but I'll hold off on getting too deep in that discussion and taking this thread off topic.

I've got a Rode - and it's also rather useful with a small comsumer cam on the top! - I use it sometimes just to get wide angle shots from above - it's quite strong and light enough to be used this way.

...
As mentioned before, if anyone has anything else they'd like to suggest for a boompole, then please do as I'd like to look around new and used for options.

My next round of questions once I get this settled will be on the shockmount to attach the mic to this boompole, but I'll hold off on getting too deep in that discussion and taking this thread off topic.


I bought an internal coiled cabled 12 foot carbon fibre Loon Boom with a Rycote Invision mount just a few weeks ago. Very light weight, almost no sag or flexing with my Schoeps mounted, you have to really shake it to get cable slap and whack it to get handling noises. Also has incredibly smooth extension and retraction action. Their system for mounting the cable is such that removing or replacing it because of a fault is very speedy and the gadget the internal coil version attaches to at the base, the "Wing," is perfect to position and protect a plug-on wireless transmitter if you want to go that route. Highly recommended. Also recommend the Loon coiled jumper cable to connect the boom to your mixer if you're working from a bag ENG style. http://loonaudio.com/index.php

Shahryar: My boom is indeed a 110CC in the Avalon Aluminum line. Not sure where to find it on B&H's site as I bought mine quasi-locally up here in Canada.

Edit: For the record - as much as a LOVE my Avalon, if I were buying again, I would look seriously at the Loon Boom Steve mentions. You won't go wrong with either solution though.

Interesting discussion, here's my two-pence worth, based in UK. As the others have mentioned, internally coiled isn't as popular here, and I can't say I've used one.

I initially bought one of those cheap Rode 3m boom poles that has been discussed after trying to find some place on the internet that told me its weight, but couldn't find anywhere.

It said: "In fact it is only a fraction heavier than the carbon-fibre offerings that cost much more." So, I decided to buy it. When it arrived I was so shocked how heavy and thick the thing was I put it on my kitchen scales and it weighed in at 1kg! Most carbon fibre poles of similar length are getting towards half that weight - Panamic's 3m is 580g! So, I'm afraid that review is way off the mark. The foam padding at the bottom of the pole isn't the most sensible of materials to cut down handling noise, either, as any little squeeze transfers its way up.

After a couple jobs, I decided to take the plunge and get a Panamic 4 piece 2.29m (450g) having used them before in studio and from hire companies - there really is no comparison - it is leagues ahead of the VDB pole which I also tried out. Panamics are VERY expensive but will last a lifetime if looked after. The mechanisms are just so much better and smoother - I can lock/unlock the collars easily with one hand and the nylon webbing is comfortable and pretty noiseless. Anyhow, enough plugging Panamics.

I keep the Rode now as a backup and in case I need that extra couple feet for anything. For the mount, I have a full Rycote suspension basket which is very effective - if you're buying 2nd hand do note that there are a few different models of their mounts, some with a full circle around the mic holder, offering more stability (the rubber bands therefore cross the mic in an X shape), and some with the horseshoe shape holder which I don;t think is as stable. I bought one of those cheap suspension units from India on ebay as a backup for another 416 - I have had to make some alterations that involved plastic tape to make it usable - it's nowhere near as good as the Rycote but isn't too bad at all.

Anyhow, I'm probably one of those that has fallen into the trap of trying to save money buying cheaper gear and then eventually being frustrated with it and then forking out for the more expensive stuff eventually. I keep saying to myself 'I can always keep it as a backup once I've got a new one...'

Best,

Baldwin

Shahryar: My boom is indeed a 110CC in the Avalon Aluminum line. Not sure where to find it on B&H's site as I bought mine quasi-locally up here in Canada.
....

Thanks Shaun. I wonder what the difference is between the 110CC in the Avalon version you have vs. the (non-Avalon?) 110CC that B&H photo has. The seller of the used K-Tek 110CC I'm considering had given me the B&H Photo link for the product (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/406098-REG/K_Tek_KE_110CCR_KE110CCR_Aluminum_Boompole.html) as reference so I assume that's the one he's selling.

...
Edit: For the record - as much as a LOVE my Avalon, if I were buying again, I would look seriously at the Loon Boom Steve mentions. You won't go wrong with either solution though.

I'm sure both the Loon Boom and the Panamic (that's been mentioned recently by Baldwin but earlier by others) are superior, but the price is quite a bit up there for both. For where I am in DV journey, I think I've ultimately decided to grab either a Rode or the K-Tek.

The Rode (Rode | BOOMPOLE f/NTG-1/NTG-2/VIDEOMIC | BOOMPOLE | B&H Photo (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=392860&is=REG&addedTroughType=search)) comes in at $149.99 new at B&H
There's also a Rode mini boom pole too that's $129:
rode boompole | B&H Photo Video (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?ci=0&shs=rode+boompole&sb=ps&pn=1&sq=desc&InitialSearch=yes&O=jsp%2Fproductlist.jsp&A=search&Q=*&bhs=t&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=submit)
That goes to 81"

(btw - have the prices gone up? I remember back in May 2007 I was looking at the Rode Boom Pole and it was $72 on B&H Video's site).

If I do go with the Rode, I wanted to make this note for myself from Baldwin's latest post:

...The foam padding at the bottom of the pole isn't the most sensible of materials to cut down handling noise, either, as any little squeeze transfers its way up...

I'll remember that.

...Also recommend the Loon coiled jumper cable to connect the boom to your mixer if you're working from a bag ENG style.
....[/url]

Could you elaborate more on this? I'm not sure if this (or something like this) would be available for the K-TEK or Rode Boom pole I will probably go with? Is this something for me to get if I'm planning on recording to a Hi-MD (I own a Sony MZ-RH1). I think I'd like to have versatility to take the sound from the boom pole either to the XH-A1 or my Sony MZ-RH1 Hi-MD (I don't have a mixer). Sorry if this is a newbie question...

Also, I appreciate the comments on the mounts. I think I finally understand boom poles a bit more so now I'm trying to figure out what exactly to look for in mounts. I saw that Baldwin and Steve use the Rycote one - Thanks Baldwin for the heads up if I'm buying this used what to look out for. (btw - In buying the used Boom pole, is there anything I should look out for too? Although I do find the seller to be pretty trustworthy so I think he maintained his stuff well and I'm not too worried).

I was eying the K-Tek GPS (K-Tek | K-GPS - Universal Microphone Suspension Mount | K-GPS (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292933-REG/K_Tek_K_GPS_K_GPS_Universal_Microphone.html) ) because the seller of the boom pole I'm considering is also selling this. So I thought it would be nice to get both in one shot. However, at $155 new, it seems pretty pricey and I assume the used price wouldn't be terribly lower. The Invision is under $70 I believe on B&H Photo. I remember once the Rode shockmount was recommended as well and I believe that's also fairly inexpensive.

Would the K-Tek be perhaps over kill for someone at my hobbyist level? (please say yes).

A little update on my situation. Much as I wanted a carbon fiber pole, the price exceeded my means.... and along the way I picked up a nice aluminum Gitzo pole that was internally wired.

It makes me think my trepidations about an aluminum pole were due to the fact it was a painter's pole and not something specifically made for sound use. The Aluminum Gitzo is a terrific pole and I don't experience the handling noises I had (have) with my painter's pole.

Or maybe, I'm just getting better.

Anyway I withdraw my complaint about aluminum poles. I'm more experienced and smarter now.

My first pole was a Gitzo. They are nice poles.

I'll remember that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve House
...Also recommend the Loon coiled jumper cable to connect the boom to your mixer if you're working from a bag ENG style.
....[/url]

Could you elaborate more on this? I'm not sure if this (or something like this) would be available for the K-TEK or Rode Boom pole I will probably go with? Is this something for me to get if I'm planning on recording to a Hi-MD (I own a Sony MZ-RH1). I think I'd like to have versatility to take the sound from the boom pole either to the XH-A1 or my Sony MZ-RH1 Hi-MD (I don't have a mixer). Sorry if this is a newbie question...


The internal cabled poles have an xlr connector at the base. You plug a cable into it to connect the boom, hence the mic, to your mixer. The Loon jumper I mentioned is coiled and very flexible, extends from 18" to 5 feet. That makes it easier to keep everything tidy when holding the boom overhead while carrying the mixer in a bag at your waist ENG news team style then it would be with say a 6 foot straight XLR cable.

The internal cabled poles have an xlr connector at the base. You plug a cable into it to connect the boom, hence the mic, to your mixer. The Loon jumper I mentioned is coiled and very flexible, extends from 18" to 5 feet. That makes it easier to keep everything tidy when holding the boom overhead while carrying the mixer in a bag at your waist ENG news team style then it would be with say a 6 foot straight XLR cable.

Thanks for this info Steve. Still in debate on what to do, but with no used Rode Boompole out there, the price diff between the new Rode vs. my available used K-tek 100CCR is not too bad. I think I'd rather lean towards the K-tek as that seems to be the more favored Boom pole. One day later I'll get something like the Panamic or the Loon Audio.