Has anyone turned the Zebras off (both of them) and just relied on the "High Light" warning? I have been underexposing a bit recently and I tried this with good results. The High Light warning is center waited but it still seems very effective. My eyes are not the best and in bright light I must use the viewfinder and not the LCD and small amounts of zebra and highlights get confused.

Zebras are really useful. Set to 95% and keep them off the image to protect your highlights. When you say you've been underexposing, do you mean that the image looks dark straight out of the camera? If so, that's not neccessarily a bad thing, there's probably lots of info in the shadows that you can pull out in edit, and your highlights will be preserved so you'll end up with a very balanced image.
From clips I've seen of EX1 it's obvious that more people need to "underexpose" a bit more as there are plenty of clipped highlights and yet this camera has 10 stops dynamic range so shouldn't be happening.
Steve

No, I didn't mean it just looks dark. I mean where the waveform monitor only goes to like 85 and not 106. But while we are talking Zebras you say 95 but a lot of guys here say 106! Now I know the zebra level is somewhat tied to the cine choice but as the year has progressed and everything here in the desert is getting very bright I'm having difficulty just seeing what I am doing. I do wish there was a hood for the LCD that really worked. I've tried them all.

Set at 95 you're just being extra cautious to control those highlights - if folks have them set at 106 maybe that's why there's a lot of clipped skies out there! Difficult to know what to do about viewing - the LCD as you say is really difficult to see outdoors, and the EVF, let's face it, is bloody awful for focussing!
Steve

You guys still seem to be forgetting that setting Zebra 1 to "106" will show stripes starting at 96 and up to 116%. Now, what kind of precision control can this be?

You guys still seem to be forgetting that setting Zebra 1 to "106" will show stripes starting at 96 and up to 116%. Now, what kind of precision control can this be?

Having tried all combos I think Sony fixed zebra 2 at 100 threshold for a reason and it is the one to use, but here is my problem. The camera records without blowing up to 106 and in my bright desert I'm finding zebras set to 100 with striped just gone is underexposing! Knowing just what stripes to allow seems key. As i said to Serena somewhere else last spring when light was good I had no problem but now in the harsh bright desert i either can't see the zebras or I need leave more of them showing. My problem is exasperated by it being to bright to use the LCD even with all the hoods I've tried.

I hear you, Mike - the only solution I guess it to let it appear distinctly enough to notice it, and then gently stop down (fortunately enough, the iris ring is very precise).

As to the LCD visibility, I agree - even with my Hoodman 400, when the sun is behind my back I can't see much...

Probelm is though that if you open up your exposure any more then the dunes will clip. If there is no way to keep the dunes unclipped and enough exposure in the shadowy areas then I guess you've reached the limits of the camera's dynamic range and you just have to decide what you can sacrifice. .
Steve

I think the problem is that Sony Zebra 2 should really be controllable to 109 (the max the camera handles I believe before clipping).

Yes 100 can be too low when you want to stretch things to the max. 100 might be a ceiling for "broadcast" but there are many circumstances, as some are noting here, where 109 indicator would be more useful.

Having tried all combos I think Sony fixed zebra 2 at 100 threshold for a reason and it is the one to use, but here is my problem. The camera records without blowing up to 106 and in my bright desert I'm finding zebras set to 100 with striped just gone is underexposing! Knowing just what stripes to allow seems key. As i said to Serena somewhere else last spring when light was good I had no problem but now in the harsh bright desert i either can't see the zebras or I need leave more of them showing. My problem is exasperated by it being to bright to use the LCD even with all the hoods I've tried.

What zebra's are most users using ?
I use both,usually 65% and obviously 100%

Paul.

I think having one around 65% is pretty useless unless you're shooting skin tones, and having 2 zebras at once tends to get in the way.
Steve

Yes that's what i meant,65% for skin,and i try not to show any 100%.

What zebra settings do you use ? And why ?

Paul.

Have hardly ever used EX1, but most cams I tend to set 95% and get rid of it to make sure highlights don't get clipped - the hallmark of (bad) video! It's always amazing what you can get from the shadows.
Steve

Steve,what sort of stuff do you shoot ?
And do you ever need a 2nd cam ?
If so could you give me a shout,i'm not far from Wales and don't mind travelling.

Thanks,Paul.

Exclusively wildlife, mostly for BBC. It's generally 1 man op, or with producer/ap/researcher helping out - even the NHUs budgets and crew sizes are shrinking!
Steve

Ok,no worries.

Thanks,Paul.

What about you Paul, what sort of stuff do do? And how're you finding the EX1 in general - any plans to buy an EX3? That's why I'm having a little play with the EX1, to see if it'll be worth getting the EX3 when it ships, especially to use with Flash XDR.
Steve

I'm trying to make a living from videography/filming,been bitten by the bug and all that.
I'll film anything,i'm still a relative beginner although i'm learning fast.
I'll work with anyone who'll give me some experience,i don't mind doing a bit of free work if it means i can pick someone's brains.

Just started a business doing property video tours.link below

www.propertyvideosonline.co.uk

I've done some other stuff,interview shoots,easy stuff really,couple of bands,
i covered some bands at Cheltenham Folk Festival a few months ago,8 hours of constant folk music, and recently shot a theatrical performance,clips on vimeo,link below

www.vimeo.com/paulkellett

And i'm loving my EX1,brilliant workflow.
I can't justify (or afford) buying an EX3,it's not much different to the EX1 unless you start adding the extra lenses.

I just love filming and would love to do it for a living,even just part time.

Paul.

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=876418&postcount=39

People really need to understand how Zebras work on EX1.
If you set the user controllable Zebra 1 to 95 it can begin to peak at 85 (+-10).
Zebra2 is locked to 100.

I use Zebra 1 set to 70 for interviews where skin tone is most critical.
I use Zebra 2 when I must avoid clipping (although I'd wish for a 109 settings instead of 100 in some cases).

I also find using both Zebras confusing to the eye.

I also find it confusing that one may not know one has turned off the Zebra button. Then I don't know if I'm not seeing Zebra because nothing is in that range or I accidentally turned them off.

It would be nice if the LCD displayed Zebra 1, Zebra 2, Both, Off. Toss that on the "wishlist."

.

It would be nice if the LCD displayed Zebra 1, Zebra 2, Both, Off. Toss that on the "wishlist."[/QUOTE]

And a "peaking" icon


Paul.

peaking defined as a "hard" 109? Yes.

Now if only Sony could do this as a firmware update. I don't think it's likely they'll do it though.

.

It would be nice if the LCD displayed Zebra 1, Zebra 2, Both, Off. Toss that on the "wishlist."

And a "peaking" icon


Paul.[/QUOTE]

And that.

I meant the peaking as in focus,sometimes i'm not sure if the peaking is on or not.

Paul.

Sorry for the "me too" post but yes it would be important to know whether peaking is on or off also. For that reason I've pretty much given up on that and just use expanded focus.

At least with Zebra one MIGHT quickly point at an object that "should" kick in the Zebras and then toggle on/off.

That's much harder to do with peaking focus with any reliability and I just don't have time to fiddle with that rush rush world of time is money shooting.

And that.

I meant the peaking as in focus,sometimes i'm not sure if the peaking is on or not.

Paul.

Don't know about you but I find the EX1 peaking useless, not at all like peaking on pro cams. Sorry, broadcast cams. Sorry, 2/3" cams. Gotta be careful these days!.
Steve

I hear you, Mike - the only solution I guess it to let it appear distinctly enough to notice it, and then gently stop down (fortunately enough, the iris ring is very precise).

As to the LCD visibility, I agree - even with my Hoodman 400, when the sun is behind my back I can't see much...

i have a solution for you. move to england. we have the sun for 9 days a year. we have used up 6 recently so not much left. lots of grey skies and great lcd visibility!

I shoot a lot of bright ocean/beach/coastline scenery. It works for me to shoot with Zebra 2 @ 100, using Cine 1 and stretched blacks, and to actually allow the pure whites to "blow out" a bit. If I do a comparison shot of the same scene stopped down so that there is no zebra in any of the whites, it looks a little underexposed. This is only for Cine 1 and may not apply to the other gamma settings.

I shoot a lot of bright ocean/beach/coastline scenery. It works for me to shoot with Zebra 2 @ 100, using Cine 1 and stretched blacks, and to actually allow the pure whites to "blow out" a bit. If I do a comparison shot of the same scene stopped down so that there is no zebra in any of the whites, it looks a little underexposed. This is only for Cine 1 and may not apply to the other gamma settings.

I concur. You are saying for you correct exposure is trial and error. If I set zebras at 100 and just back off I am often underexposed. I have tried using the histogram but as it does not go to the far axis it's not easy to interpret. Often when the Zebras are well blow the vector-scope shows 108 and there is no blowout. This is the whole problem.

I think both cases here are talking about extreme situations where the limits of the camera (and possibly any camera) have been exceeded. These wave and dune highlights are very likely many stops above the scene average and to stop down enough to remove the zebras would crush the blacks into nothing.
Have you tried the button that shows the luminance level at the centre point, can't remember what they call it, on Varicam it's "Y Get"?
Steve

Have you tried the button that shows the luminance level at the centre point, can't remember what they call it, on Varicam it's "Y Get"?
Steve

It's called "brightness level indication". I always have this and histogram showing. I choose zebras and peaking when wanted. Being able to declutter the screen at the touch of a button lets me have all useful data displayed. Just as Adam Wilt commented. Relying on the camera saying "highlight" or "lowlight" is a bit crude -- I regard these as warnings to consider corrective action.

These wave and dune highlights are very likely many stops above the scene average and to stop down enough to remove the zebras would crush the blacks into nothing.

Steve

Agree. Have to control these extreme ranges with graded filters or, where that can't be done, choose the areas of the image that can be let go. Burnt out highlights are very ugly, but sometimes have to be tolerated because shadow detail is where the picture is -- recompose the frame in those cases.

Agree Serena, some times you just have to accept ugly clipped highlights. I think the best way to go is use zebras at around 95-105% and get used to what they show you, use them to get a general idea of what is going on, and if the scene is not too extreme get rid of them so you know nothing is clipped, but if it's too extreme then just use your eye and common sense to make the neccessary sacrifices. I think there are many situations with really bright skies or white birds in bright sun where you just know that it'll clip unless you basically make the whole rest of the scene black, then it's just judgement. I think the EX1 does a pretty good job here as the DR is pretty good.
Steve

Agree Serena, some times you just have to accept ugly clipped highlights. I think the best way to go is use zebras at around 95-105% and get used to what they show you, use them to get a general idea of what is going on, and if the scene is not too extreme get rid of them so you know nothing is clipped, but if it's too extreme then just use your eye and common sense to make the neccessary sacrifices. I think there are many situations with really bright skies or white birds in bright sun where you just know that it'll clip unless you basically make the whole rest of the scene black, then it's just judgement. I think the EX1 does a pretty good job here as the DR is pretty good.
Steve

Scenes such as these ?

Paul.

Scenes such as these ?

Paul.

Yes, they're excellent examples of scenes where the highlights must not be blown out and deep rich blacks are important. "Don't be afraid of black", as Pieter de Vries ACS advises in this elementary presentation:
http://www.sony.com.au/articles/article.jsp?categoryId=23808&articleId=3500
Dark areas add drama to a composition, but I'm generally averse to glaring holes. I prefer to under-expose, provided this doesn't result in noisy blacks when I balance in post.

EDIT: I should add that I expect to grade my material in post, so in shooting I'm more concerned with getting the data than in getting it spot-on in camera. Once data is lost (choked blacks and burnt highlights), there is no recovery.

I shot those scenes,,well the whole play actually with Bills settings but with Cine 2,am i correct in thinking that Cine 2 limits the highlights ?
I tried Cine 1 and it had quite a bit of 100% zebras all over the lcd,but as soon as i switched to Cine 2,most of them dissapeared,this made the whole exposure easier to control.

Because of the placement of spotlights and the other lights that follow the actors i had to allow some slight 100% zebras throughout most of the performance.

Clips on vimeo if anyone wants to see,link below

www.vimeo.com/paulkellett

Paul.

Yes, Cine 2 limits at 100. So you can't over expose, in a sense, but high lights can be all 100 and so not differentiated. Intended for delivering material within standard, but I think it of little use. But was effective in your video.

Yes,i usually use Cine 1 but went with 2 for this because of the highlights.
it was just a better Cine for the situation,actors where running around the stage,exposed correctly then blown then correctly then blown etc,because of the spotlight's. It would've looked terrible if i was trying to follow that with the iris/another gamma.

I also find Cine 2 is good for outside on very bright days,ie bright sun and white window frames on houses in the background.

Paul.

Yes, Cine 2 limits at 100. So you can't over expose, in a sense, but high lights can be all 100 and so not differentiated. Intended for delivering material within standard, but I think it of little use. But was effective in your video.

You can see this in the flatness of the girls white shirt that looks blown because it has no detail

Whites/hot spots/peaks can show detail up to 109. When picking a Cine setting think about not only the peak but how it rolls off.

For broadcast you can pull them in in post being careful about retaining detail. Much of people's work is not for broadcast so one might not want to sacrifice the detail up to 109.

Was this my enexperience showing ?
What would've you guys done on a shoot like this ?

Thanks,Paul.

Stage lighting is difficult for videography and if your client was happy then you did well. The portions of clips I watched (slow download) looked quite acceptable, good colour and adequate latitude. There is clipping (choking, really) in the highlights and you could have gained some there by not using cine 2. Perhaps your best approach would have been to rely on Z2 only and adjust iris for small bars in peak highlight. If the key light stayed at near constant intensity you might have used a constant iris set for highlight exposure. The brightness measurement is valuable, which is the same as the exposure meters familiar to those who've worked with film. Very likely I would have been relying on the histogram and Z2, but I wasn't there. I think your clips look fine.

And just to add, for dark scenes like you have you would better use Cine4 - what Sony calls the "brighter cine". And don't forget to adjust the master black and to open up the shadows with black gamma. With the black gamma go easy or you will get noise especially if you are using much gain.