I am finding conflicting information regarding the EX format meeting the HD broadcast standards of Discovery HD. Nigel's review mentions the EX format meets the full broadcast standard of Discovery and others----yet Discovery.ca said they don't accept the XDCAM EX format at 35mbps, but they do accept the XDCAM HD format at 35mbps. Has anyone else heard the bottom line on the EX series for broadcast?

Are you asking because you are producing content for Discovery HD? If so, then your contact at Discovery should be provide you with all the specs you need.

If you aren't producing content for Discovery HD, why does it matter?

Broadcasters all have their own specifics when it comes to the technical details of content. Best place to know is to get it straight from the horse's mouth.

Isn't the quality of the codec, of the Sony EX XDCAM HD not at least as good as that of the bigger camera's? (same bitrate, higher resolution)?

I'm not talking about the lenses or so, but purely codec...

Yes they accept xdcam with 35mps.

www.videoscope.com/pdf_files/Discovery_HDSpec.logo.pdf

Cheers
Holger

Yes they accept xdcam with 35mps.

I think that predates the EX1 launch. I've seen subsequent notes that impose the same limitations on EX1 footage as the HVX200.

And not just with the Discovery Channel - the same is true of the BBC.

This is where I take a deep breath and accept that these are not TECHNICAL limitations, they are to set the bar high enough to prevent them being swamped by a flood of so-so productions filmed on Z1s.

Now, there's a documentary that's called The Family That Walks on All Fours:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_That_Walks_On_All_Fours

filmed on Z1s, sold worldwide, marvelous production, who cares what it was shot on, looks great and more importantly is a riveting bit of documentary. It was edited in an outhouse in Wiltshire, UK (a fine part of the country I may add). On Final Cut Pro. Who cares.

The Discovery Channel and the Beeb are not going to turn down an amazing documentary like that. But if you buy a Z1 knowing that the Discovery Channel accepts it as an origination format, you and the rest of the world are going to be beating a path to their door with infomercials about cake mix and somebody who discovered the face of Conan in a cookie, so the best way of preserving their sanity is to put a big huge filter on their door:

Thou Shalt Film with a 2/3" chip.

Trouble is, a lot of first rung producers won't get this, so they publish a helpful list of cameras that are affordable to first rung producers, and state that This Will Not Do.

Of course, if you have access to an amazing story that will keep millions of people from switching channels during commercial breaks, I guess you could film it on a Nokia.

If you really think that hamster bedding is a worthy subject of a documentary, and you manage to secure funding that enables you to shoot it on high end kit, then the Disco channel may deign to watch a bit of it because you've obviously worked hard to make it. But if you hand them a tape that's iMovie's take of a Sony A1, it's going to be hard work.

The trouble is, there may be something to be said about hamster bedding and only somebody with iMovie and an A1 could afford to do it without funding, and that's where the web is going to win over TV.

Ranting - sorry. Shoot the format you can afford, but just tell a good story and the rest is fine. Disco, Beeb and rest will be toast in 10 years.

these are not TECHNICAL limitations, they are to set the bar high enough to prevent them being swamped by a flood of so-so productions filmed on Z1s.

I 100% agree to this! It's not only Discovery and BBC which set the bar so high in their specifications. But for most Tv-Stations the key is to have something they really would like to broadcast.

So it happend two times to me that TV-Stations changed their contracts and acepted DVCam or even MiniDV tapes, because they still were interested in that product.

Dear All:

The URL below links to a New York Times story about the incredible "DV" footage shot by tourists at the Kruger Wildlife preserve in Northeast South Africa with a Canon ZR50MC camera. The footage caught a battle between a herd of buffalo, a pride of lions and a crocodile over a buffalo calf. I won't give away the ending.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/10/arts/television/10kruger.html?th=&adxnnl=1&emc=th&adxnnlx=1210414257-f7UPI9AEgt6wv0DqnjVZug

In the beginning, the majors like National Geographics and Animal Planet, rejected the footage because it was below spec. But later, when they found out that this footage had garnered 30 million views on YouTube, National Geographic came crawling back to the producer, Mr. Budzinski, who originally pitched it. Now it'll be broadcast Sunday night at 9 pm EST repackaged a 60-min documentary utilizing the 8-min DV segment. I hope the producer doubled his fees!

Matt Daviss got it right when he noted here, "Of course, if you have access to an amazing story that will keep millions of people from switching channels during commercial breaks, I guess you could film it on a Nokia."

Quoting the NYT article, "Enhanced by professionals, the television video is clearly superior to the blurry and heavily compressed version viewed online."

So much for so-called broadcast standards. Check it out on the YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnhaCt0z_yY

Collis Davis

Discovery don't keep to their own guidelines and never have! They are currently shooting a show in the US following a group of storm chasers that are trying to drive an armored truck into a tornado. They followed the same group last year and that season is currently being shown around the world. The budget for the new series is around the $1million USD. They have several crews following different aspects of the chasers. It is all being shot in HD... on Z1's!

I have been informed by a college that did some of the acceptance trials for Discovery that the EX1 is accepted as Silver.

I understand where you guys are coming from--however since I'm looking at purchasing my next camera--there's nothing worse than shooting something in HD worthy of broadcast and then having BBC or Discovery HD reject it because of it being shot on in HDV vs XDCAM. If it has to be something so remarkable for them to accept in HDV, then alot of good projects out there will never see the light of day on those networks. So the decision of an XL-H1 vs an XDCAM EX3 becomes very important.

Other than to support Matt Daviss excellent reply I don't really have anything important to add.

I just wanted to participate in a thread that had THREE "Davis(s)" posting to it.

(Hey, Matt - did you LOSE an 's' somewhere? Or were my ancestors just too lazy to scribble it twice when they arrived from Wales back in the dawn of the 1500s?)

Nice answer, whatever the case.

I understand where you guys are coming from--however since I'm looking at purchasing my next camera--there's nothing worse than shooting something in HD worthy of broadcast and then having BBC or Discovery HD reject it because of it being shot on in HDV vs XDCAM. If it has to be something so remarkable for them to accept in HDV, then alot of good projects out there will never see the light of day on those networks. So the decision of an XL-H1 vs an XDCAM EX3 becomes very important.

Unless you have a contract or 'high up inside source' with either organization or a well known Director or Producer attached to the project the chances are not better for them (DSC, BBC, or PBS) to even look at your footage regardless of what flavor of HD you are shooting with.

Television like film is more 'who you know' vs 'how well you do.' There are exceptions to this rule but they are rare.

Doug, I agree 100% and it sucks that so much great content does not make it thru the filters and is shelved for those very reasons.... you see it in Television, Movies, and Music everyday....Guess that is why I am starting to get a bitter taste for mainstream media outlets... I have found content that very much deserves to be seen and enjoyed by the masses but sadly is not seeing the light of day. Things are changing very quickly for us though with new independent outlets and with more bandwidth becoming available we will be able to start our own channels...

Yeah, don't get me started on some of the content that is put out as broadcast simply because the Executive Producer's cousin twice removed wanted to make a movie...

I'm looking forward to the future as well! It's all about making a great story and gathering a large audience...

Discovery don't keep to their own guidelines and never have! They are currently shooting a show in the US following a group of storm chasers that are trying to drive an armored truck into a tornado. They followed the same group last year and that season is currently being shown around the world. The budget for the new series is around the $1million USD. They have several crews following different aspects of the chasers. It is all being shot in HD... on Z1's!

I have been informed by a college that did some of the acceptance trials for Discovery that the EX1 is accepted as Silver.

What is "Silver?" Nigel Cooper said in his review that the EX line was accepted for 100% acquisition for Silver.
I've also heard the D-HD series Deadliest Catch is entirely shot with Z1s.

NASA sets the bar the highest. You have to use a Z1 or A1, shoot with a highly compressed format, and probably be a rocket scientist. Even with that, from the vacuum of space your footage will not be aired.

But seriously, I think the HD networks have it right, and that the current bar can and should be expected to be escalated further. If the Z1 had existed 5 years ago when HDNet was the only exclusive HD network broadcasting 18 hours a day, when ice hockey and football were broadcast without scoreboards, banners or marquees, the network would have accepted it eagerly.

Discovery have 3 tiers. Gold is the best and is HDCAM, HDCAM SR and is expected for drama and high end docs. Silver is next, normally HD Docs and Factual and is XDCAM HD, DVCPRO HD (Not HVX200) and Bronze includes HDV and HVX200 but you cannot use Bronze for more than 20% 0f the entire production.

If your trying to choose between the XL-H1 and EX3 purely on image quality then there is no contest. The H1 (which I have owned and did really like) is HDV and the extra 10Mb and VBR encoding make a massive difference, especially in post production. Also you can fit a far wider range of lenses to the EX3 thanks to the fact that the hand grip doesn't get in the way as it does on the H1 and the 1/2 inch sensors.

Hi Alister,
What are some models for the HDCAM, HDCAM SR & XDCAM HD, DVCPRO HD that i could look at in the Sony range.

Cheers
Simon

HDCAM SR is really very big boys toys. HDCAM is realistically priced as it is really the HD equivalent to Digibeta. Normal cameras would be 790/750/730. If editing would need a feeder for the editing system such as HDW1800 if you are going to lay back to tape, still big bucks! Makes the EX3/EX1 look attractive. I think real XDcam HD is a good and sensible way to go as you do not need a VT machine.

Usually the BBC commissions rather than buys in documentaries, so you'll have the budget to shoot on which ever format they require. It's a pretty tough business getting a commission, which, if you're a newcomer, can involve working with an established producer - yes, they're after material to put in as proposals. However, you'll need to have done something that demonstrates your talent (or be be a relative).

Currently, I'd say the BBC regards their HD channel as a flagship, so it's going for high end content. As they create more HD channels they'll be wanting more lower budget programming, however, by that time HDV will not be in the picture.

There's no problem with HDV or the EX1 on SD programmes. However, the Sony PDW 700 seems to be the minimum for BBC HD, although perhaps the Scarlet might pass next year.
http://www.sony.co.uk/res/attachment/file/44/1193315636944.pdf

Alister, thanks for the info. Are these tiers for a European Discovery HD channel (if there is one)? If so, I am wondering if there are separate standards for the US version.

Alistar and crew,

Thanks for your experience. Sounds like I should realistically shoot for SD programming.

I am finding conflicting information regarding the EX format meeting the HD broadcast standards of Discovery HD. Nigel's review mentions the EX format meets the full broadcast standard of Discovery and others----yet Discovery.ca said they don't accept the XDCAM EX format at 35mbps, but they do accept the XDCAM HD format at 35mbps. Has anyone else heard the bottom line on the EX series for broadcast?

Discovery.ca is independant from Discovery US.

I am sure that the broadcasters have not thought about it yet. From the quality of some of the stuff they put out I am sure the EX1/EX3 will get used without a problem.
As someone else has posted, a few years down the line and they will be running anything they can get cheap as the viewers will have gone to surf the net for what they really want to see not what a jumped up commissioning editor thinks they should watch.

I am sure that the broadcasters have not thought about it yet. From the quality of some of the stuff they put out I am sure the EX1/EX3 will get used without a problem.
As someone else has posted, a few years down the line and they will be running anything they can get cheap as the viewers will have gone to surf the net for what they really want to see not what a jumped up commissioning editor thinks they should watch.

Unfortunately, there will always be a limitation on bandwidth on HD channels (especially if you want lower compression), so there will be a selection process.

The problem that internet distribution has to work out is how you realise a return on your investment in a production. The porn industry does it, but I suspect most people in the forum won't be using that particular model and really want higher production values. Although, I do know one businessman who used their selling techniques for his on-line business.