Hi.

My friend asked me to make a dvd from a sony hdd sd camcorder.
i connect the cam with usb cable, and copy the mpg files to my HDD.
100 piece of simple pal 720x576 (16:9) mpg files.

Only importing to vegas 8 require about 2min!
maybe this would be not a problem.
after placing clips on the timeline, memory usage go higher and higher, up to 1,3GB! (nothing else program is running, when i exit vegas, mem usage is about 200MB)

this is normal? I dont think so, it seems that vegas handle mpg files very bad.
and when i cut the unwanted parts and go to render to a single file, memory usage go higher and higher again, and render fails. (because it reach the 2GB).

I thinked 2GB would be enough for HDV editing too!
And the reality, that with this system i cannot work not even a 100 mpg SD file project?

help

http://www.relaxvideo.hu/vegas-mem.jpg

Prech, I've seen one of your videos, very nice. Sorry no one has an answer for you yet.

Your english is quite good, however it is a tiny bit unclear what is happening, though you explained it as best you could I know.

Have you found a solution yet?

One question: What means "Importing to Vegas"? Do you mean dropping them on the time line or what are you doing with them upfront?

Axel, San Jose

Jeff,

thank you! i just love nature :)

What's happening with vegas: my proble is memory usage is very high, a lot-lot higher than working with dv avi files. Some days ago i upgrade my pc to 2gb ram, and thinked this would be enough also for hdv editing. And the reality is, that i cannot work with 100 sd mpg files on the timeline and render.
solution was: place only 20 clips on the timeline, rendering to dv avi, then the next 20... etc. editing the dv avi, and rendering this to final single file. this works, but i know, quality degrades :(

Axel,

importing means click on the import media button and getting the files to the bin. What else?
i wrote that when i dropping to the timeline, mem usage go higher.
and when its time to rendering, vegas crash.

Well, we are glad you found a solution.

You explained it correctly the first time, but wanted to make sure I understood.

Glad you found a solution!

Best wishes!

Prech you still shouldn't be getting the problem that you're getting,i've dropped 115gb of EX1 footage on my vegas timeline,all at the same time,with no problems.
I also have a Sony hdd cam,DCR-SR90,i don't get any problems with this cam and vegas either.

Paul.

Hi, Paul.
this sounds interesting to me!

How much ram do you have? Can you grab me a task manager screenshot, that shows the memory usage during importing clips?

I dont know whats wrong with my system.

Hey all,

Are the HDD files from the cam in dv or mpeg2 (the same as dvd video?)

Just wondering as I've pulled footage off of dvds and damn if it isn't a sob to work with.

DV is gloriously smooth in multiple streams but one stream of mpeg2 just makes my Vegas s....l....o....w.... d....o....w....n.... and I'm using a dualcore laptop.


just sayin'

sincerely,


ian

Some files require Vegas to fall back on a less-memory-efficient decoder, or cause the decoder being used to be less-memory-efficient.

The "File->Import->DVD Camcorder Disc" option is specifically for this need. It fixes up the files in question.

You could also change the files to an intermediate working format by batch conversion. Ideally, this would be transparent, but handling these files on the fly would be exceedingly difficult.

Hello Ian:
have you read the topic title?
have you read the second and the third line of my first post?
then you have the answer: it's mpeg files, mpeg2 exactly with ac3 audio.

Matthew:
i heard this less-memory-efficien decoder of vegas, but what this really meant? i have to install another mpeg codec? right now only coreavc is installed, and standard xp mpg2 codec. Are you say, vegas use those? Which one? And where can i adjust, what to use for decode?

thx,
Marton

Prech, Matthew told you what to do - use the File - Import - DVD Camcorder Disc option to import those files. That's why that option was added to Vegas - to handle cameras that record to DVDs.

thx Edward, but this is not a dvd camcorder, it has a hdd.
i transfer the files via usb.

...it's mpeg files, mpeg2 exactly with ac3 audio.


Yup. Sounds like it recorded straight to the codec that DVDs are rendered in.

Ed, correct me if I'm wrong there.

sincerely,


ian

thx Edward, but this is not a dvd camcorder, it has a hdd.
i transfer the files via usb.

Which model camera are you using?

unfortunatly this was not my cam, and isnt here yet.
i dont remember the model number, just it was from a hungarian shop.
but why is this important? it write simple mpeg2 SD PAL files as the other.

Just wanting to make sure of the video format.

MPEG is more difficult to edit than DV. They are totally different methods of compression.

It does seem odd that you are having trouble with the SD video though. As a comparison would it be possible to take a short bit of video from a DVD and see if it has the same effect to your memory usage?

Also, more information about your computer would be helpful.

Chris

I know its harder to work with mpg files, but i dont think 2gb ram isnt enough for a 1,5 hour long project!...

ok, i will try it with other mpg files.
my config is:
Asrock Conroe 865PE, E2160, 2x1GB Dual DDR400, Gigabyte 7600GS AGP, Audigy card, 250GB Sata Samsung and 160GB Pata Maxtor hdd.
XP SP2 hungarian, dx9.
have i forgotten something?

There are several things that can cause per-clip memory use, and that can result it big failures in 32-bit applications.

Let's say that each clip has to use the Mainconcept MPEG-2 decoder (you can look at the media properties to see what plug-in Vegas is using), and that, ballpark, each clip takes 10MB to be ready to play back. Unfortunately, with 100 clips, you're pushing it (1GB). With 150 clips, you're toast.

Now you may have noticed that I said "what plug-in Vegas is using." To answer the earlier question, Vegas handles files via dll's that internally are called "plug-ins." These can, in turn, make use of existing file services (DirectShow, Quicktime, Real, etc.), but the application does not use those services directly. From the application's perspective, it's just talking to some thing that knows how to handle a file for it.

Matthew, thanks for information!

Yes, clip properties says: this is a mainconcept mpeg2 file.
And every file need 10MB for importing.
What can i do? What other codec should i install, and where can i inform vegas, to use another codec?

really thanks!
Marton

Unfortunately, if Vegas has decided to use a specific component, it's because of some characteristic of the file.

You could convert the files to another format (like DV or MXF) that doesn't suffer from these issues. This was a common practice with Vegas and HDV before work was done to make HDV memory-efficient when natively used in Vegas.

-Matt

solution was: place only 20 clips on the timeline, rendering to dv avi, then the next 20... etc. editing the dv avi, and rendering this to final single file. this works, but i know, quality degrades :(

I recently put together an hour long video of regatta footage shot from a consumer HDD camera. The files it stored were muxed MPEG2 and there were over 100 clips total. I found that I was running into the same problem as you (I too only have 2 GB of RAM) and that transcoding from MPEG2 to DV AVI was the easier solution for editing when compared to trying to edit the MPEG2 files.

I found that I was running into the same problem as you (I too only have 2 GB of RAM) and that transcoding from MPEG2 to DV AVI was the easier solution for editing

So, then nothing is wrong with my system?? argghh.
The bad thing that i see the quality loss, because of mpg->dv->mpeg compression :(

Matthew:
Can i not uninstall the mainconcept codec? I rarely render from the timeline with this codec, instead use frameserver and render with procoder. It produce better video at lower bitrate. And maybe vegas use another (memory friendly) codec to importing mpg files..

BUT why Paul doesn't have this issue??

Ok Prech.
I just pulled some MPEG2 footage from my HDD cam,about 20 clips,around 5 mins in total.
Footage was 720x576,upper field first. Cam was Sony DCR-SR90.
I first imported the footage from the cam to my external hard-drive,then from the external drive into vegas.
It was the first time that these clips where put on the vegas timeline so the mxf files were built for the audio peaks,total import time was around 20 secs while i waited for audio peaks to build,obviously next time will be near instant when i drag the clips to the timeline.

During import/building peaks i looked at the task manager,
1.9gb being used at the highest and 58% of ram,at the highest,but around 40% average.

This is on a Vista pc,quad core q6600,4gb ram.

Hope this helps.

Paul.

Thanks, this helps.
Do you think it is normal? 1,5 hour long SD project requires 2GB of ram.
I was learned programming at university, and i think it is a BIG programming failure, or bug, or laziness, whatever you call.
i dont want to buy 4gb of ram just for this.

I personally would try to always have at least 3, better 4 Gbs RAM. I used 2Gbs of RAM years ago, and have been using 4Gb. While it might be frustrating, we must remember we are editing video, which is resource hungry. Good luck!

Prech, you're going to have a per-clip memory cost for any format, period. Unfortunately, for some formats/readers, that per-clip cost ends up being too high with certain use-cases. This has been targeted for many formats with development efforts in the past, but I can assure you that there's no laziness involved.

Many-an-engineer have braved grey hairs, cases of Red Bull, and strained home-lives for Vegas, but, in the end, you have to decide where to focus efforts. It can't all be done in one revision.

Additionally, don't bother getting 4GB of RAM. The issue is one of virtual address space, not of physical memory. Having 4GB of RAM in your system might allow it to fail sooner (less disk thrashing), but it won't keep it from failing.

That said, running Vista, I much prefer a system with 4GB (or 8GB) of RAM over 2GB. It greatly reduces thrashing.

I dont agree. 2gb is enough for every other program that i use.

"we must remember we are editing video, which is resource hungry."

I edit DV video since when i have only Celeron 300 processor and 256MB ram. It worked very well, even with 2 hour project with effect!
So, today i have to add 4GB of ram ONLY because the files is now mpg2 instead of dv avi? This is insane. I know the editing apps are smarter, and faster, but this should not be increase the memory requirement so high, IMHO.

Prech, MPEG-2 was never meant to be an editing format, only a delivery format.
It's several times more CPU intensive than DV-AVI ever will be.
If all you want to do is trim a few clips and save the final project, take a look at the products form Womble and VideoReDo as they're designed to work with MPEG-2 material.
Vegas wasn't.
Unfortunately, camcorder manufacturers keep making "new and improved" models without bothering to figure out how the poor consumer is going to edit this footage :-(

My suggestion to add RAM was misguided. I've taken MPEG 2 from a DVD before and it is just unbelievably unwieldly. They are right Prech, Mpeg 2 just doesn't handle well on the Vegas timeline and isn't meant to.

To explain this a bit, there is a critical difference between MPEG-2 (or any MPEG) and DV.

DV is an intra-frame format, which means that reading any frame requires only the information for that specific frame. When you ask for frame 10, the DV reader just has to go and fetch the data for frame 10 and decompress it.

MPEG-2 is an inter-frame format, which means that reading any frame may require the decompressed information from a number of other frames. When you ask for frame 10, the MPEG-2 reader may have to read/decompress, for example, frames 1, 4, 7, and 10. Now, that's an awful lot of work, and you typically expect to play back frame 10 after frame 9 (which was after 8, which was after 7). How would you avoid paying the price for reading/decompressing all of those frames over again? You'd cache the data.

That's where the problem lies. There was virtually no performance advantage to holding extra information in memory with older intra-frame codecs, but there is a huge performance advantage with newer inter-frame codecs.

Again, adding more RAM will not keep the app from crashing. If it is crashing (and you have a sufficiently large page-file), it's because you're running out of virtual-address space. This can/will be fixed with further development effort on Vegas.

I dont agree. 2gb is enough for every other program that i use.

"we must remember we are editing video, which is resource hungry."

I edit DV video since when i have only Celeron 300 processor and 256MB ram. It worked very well, even with 2 hour project with effect!
So, today i have to add 4GB of ram ONLY because the files is now mpg2 instead of dv avi? This is insane. I know the editing apps are smarter, and faster, but this should not be increase the memory requirement so high, IMHO.

Prech, I have been having the same problems with using MPEG2 files directly off the camera. Vegas crashes once I add around 70 or so, with files ranging in size from 10Mb to 250Mb.

Interestingly, though, with Vegas 7e these same files can be loaded onto the timeline with no difficultly and no crashes. Version 7 appears to be more memory efficient.

I assume that V8 is decoding a lot of stuff into RAM in order to make editing easier, but since I am loading a large number of clips, it is hitting a resource limit and terminating ungracefully.

I eventually loaded everything into V7, rendered out to AVI (DV) and went from there.

Good luck,

regards,

marks

but i like vegas8 because of smart rendering (no recompression)

Today i see an interesting thing:
when i import a previously (smart) rendered single HDV file to vegas8 it import as mainconcept mpeg2 file, and requires 30-50MB of ram. just for importing a single file.
but when i import a file that was captured with vegas and not edited yet, vegas import quickly, it seems that required very little RAM, and properties says: it an mpeg2 transport stream. Ahha!!!
It use different DLL to handle the file, not the mainconcept plugin.
So, is there a utility to convert (smart again) my rendered files, to transport streams? I think the video itself is the same (resolution, fps, 25mbps, gop structure, etc), just the file header is different.
Would be good, to have these files as transport streams. Or only vegas seems so. Maybe Open AS command?

thank all of you.