Hi there,
I need a small, 2nd camera... frustrated because AVCHD is so difficult to work with (I'm on a Mac, edit with AVID).
Just wondering if the Samsung SC-HMX20C is AVCHD, or perhaps something else that's more Mac (and hopefully AVID) friendly.
Cheers,
Malcolm

This article indicates that it is:

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6517472.html

According to http://product.samsung.com/digitalcamcorder/ it's using H.264 or some derivative of it, so it may or may not be AVCHD. Samsung is a member of the AVCHD consortium but so far there doesn't appear to be any conclusive information about AVCHD in the HMX10 or HMX20.

Thanks guys,
I guess I'll bide my time, wait and see. Something's going to break this AVCHD/editing logjam, I hope.
Malcolm

Samsung SC-HMX20C HD camcorder review (http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/06/17/samsung-sc-hmx20c-hd-camcorder-review/)

http://www.engadgethd.com/photos/samsungs-sc-hmx20c-1080p-camcorder-hands-on/856851/

The Samsung SC-HMX20c is not a bad little camera. I played around with it at Circuit City and played with the files created by the camera:

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/06/17/samsung-sc-hmx20c-hd-camcorder-review/

See:
For what it is (and for what it costs), Sammy's latest HD camcorder excels. After a week with it, we simply couldn't find enough niggles to tell you to look elsewhere if you're already close to pulling the trigger. Do we wish the LCD backlight was a wee bit brighter? Sure. Do we wish the low-light performance was a smidgen better? Of course. But at the end of the day, is the SC-HMX20C a solid buy for the price? We think so. Take a peek at the (completely unedited) clips below to get a very loose feel for what this unit can do.

Right-click and Save As...
27.5MB: 480p clip at the ball field

84.9MB: 1080p clip at the ball field

38.3MB: 1080p clip in dimly lit hallway

47.7MB: 1080p shot, leisurely walk in the neighborhood

35MB: 1080p shot of flower bed

10MB: SlowMotion capture of pitcher

The image sensor is 0.55", which is larger than most HD consumer cameras. The camera uses the Sony IMX017CQE chip for the image sensor.

You may want to download the clips and try editing them. Also, your local Circuit City or Best Buy may have the camera in stock. Try going there and playing around with it.

If you bring in a good quality SD memory card, or better yet SDHC memory card, you can try recording your own files to the card. Just remember to select the memory card as the output. (The camera has its own 8GB internal memory.)


Bob Diaz

About european version of Samsung camcorder VP-HMX20 here - >
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/camcorders/0,39029423,49297077,00.htm

I bought one for about $650 at Circuit City and love it. I took it on my family vacation to the Black Hills last week, along with a DSLR, and I used the HMX20 for stills more often than the DSLR because it takes fast sequential images, and is just plain fun to use. Zooming leads to a lot of shaky cam, and the anti-shake feature adds a sort of periodic jerkiness to the image which bothers me, but I love the image quality and not having to deal with DV tapes.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/06/17/samsung-sc-hmx20c-hd-camcorder-review/You may want to download the clips and try editing themBob Diaz

Hi Bob,
For whatever reason, I can't get to the page to download some test files. And where I live (in Ottawa, Canada), no store seems to carry this camera, so I can't test it out myself.

I'm interested in it, even though I'd prefer the Sony, say (my other camera is a Sony, and I'm looking for compatibility), or the just-announced Canon, especially if it's got the higher frame rate - - except that I use Avid to edit and from everything I gather, AVCHD is a pain (extra steps, extra time) to edit...
My hope is that the Samsung HMX20, which records mpeg (is it mpeg 4?) would be a better fit with Avid.
Any chance you could send me a file... or do you know another way for me to get one?
Or... any comments about my editing conundrum? (MacBook Pro, 4GB RAM, Leopard, Avid Media Composer).
Cheers, Malcolm

All the files are way too big for email, most email systems barf at 10MB or less and the files are well beyond that. You can try a left click on the links below. This assumes a fast connection. With dial-up, this will take forever just for one file.

IF you still can't get the files into your computer, try going to a friend's house and using their computer. It could be your WEB Browser has problems with the links...

http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/engadget/videos/480p_baseball_clip.MP4

http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/engadget/videos/Baseball_Clip_001.MP4

http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/engadget/videos/Hallway_clip_001.MP4

http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/engadget/videos/Samsung_Boardwalk_Clip.MP4

http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/engadget/videos/Samsung_Garden_Clip.MP4

http://stadium.weblogsinc.com/engadget/videos/SlowMotion_baseball_clip.MP4

The Samsung HMX20 does record in MPEG-4 H.264 and with an Apple, one could use Final Cut Pro or Final Cut Express. It should work with iMovie. I have not worked with AVID, so I don't know the answer...


Bob Diaz

Thanks Bob,
Just downloaded the first clip. I'll see what Avid can do.
Do you know if it's generally conceded that mpeg-4 is more edl-friendly (maybe less time-consuming to work with) than AVCHD?
Cheers, Malcolm

Hi again,
Well, the 24-second clip imported into Avid in maybe 50 seconds... very easily done.
The video is sharp... I notice that movement (the players pitching or running) is a bit jerky... but not bad.
I haven't tried AVCHD, but I imagine I'd have to go through an extra step or two to get anything from AVCHD into Avid.
Does anyone on this forum (who uses a Mac) have experience with both AVCHD and mpeg-4?
Cheers, Malcolm

hi.
can anybody explain, what does it mean:
in hmx20c user manual samsung states, that it's sensor (most likely Sony’s IMX017CQE but why largest world cmos manufacturer... whatever), so it is [quote]"1/1.8” CMOS (Complementary Metal-Oxide Semiconductor) (Max: 6.4M pixels/Effective: 4M pixels)[end of qoute]
1. so 4M out of 6.4M converts 1/1.8 to smth like 1/2.5-2.2, right?
2. HD image is roughly 2M, thats ok, interpolation and so on, but it even bakes jpeg's, you know, at 3264*2448 (7.99M), 2880*2160 (6.2M), - and all that out of 4M effective pixels?

just curious

The image sensor is very flexible. In 1080 mode it can read 2 x 2 pixels, add them together, and output the result. It can also skip pixels and only use 2 or 4 MP for output. It can also capture still images using all the 6 MP.

For additional information, please see:

http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news/vol47/pdf/imx017cqe.pdf

http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news/vol47/pdf/featuring47.pdf


Bob Diaz

Hi there,
I need a small, 2nd camera... frustrated because AVCHD is so difficult to work with (I'm on a Mac, edit with AVID).
Just wondering if the Samsung SC-HMX20C is AVCHD, or perhaps something else that's more Mac (and hopefully AVID) friendly.
Cheers,
Malcolm

AVCHD is Sony/Panasonic marketing name for MAIN or HIGH PROFILE H.264 multiplexed into a Transport Stream that has 4 extra bytes. The Samsung is not going to be any easier to edit. In fact, depending on the NLE it might not be possible to edit: Vegas still doesn't edit Panasonic AVCHD.

When writing my SR12 book I found iMovie 08 and Media Composer worked very well together.

But, AVCHD is not going to be EZ to edit until we all have 3GHz QUAD core computers -- and it will still be SLOW to edit until one gets a pair of QUAD core chips.

That's a lot of compute power for editing a "consumer" format. Of course, Japan doesn't make any money on NLEs. I predict they will introduce BD recorders with a harddisk that includes editing software.

In fact, the camcorders already have editing software built-in. They know the vast majority of consumers only need to delete clips, trim clips, and place them into the correct order. Then burn your playlist to BD.

I downloaded a couple of those clips, and the images look SD soft to me.

AVCHD is not going to be EZ to edit until we all have 3GHz QUAD core computers -- and it will still be SLOW to edit until one gets a pair of QUAD core chips

Hi Steven,
Thanks for your reply... and I know you're right about all of this, but boy, does it ever have me scratching my head... why can I so easily import 35Mbps clips from my Sony EX-1, and then have trouble importing clips from something nowhere near as good. I realize it's simplistic of me to think that just because a little Sony SR12 is small doesn't mean the clip-size is... anyway, it's still kind of counter-intuitive to me...

Now in fact I was able to import one of the Samsung's mpeg clips directly into Avid Media Composer, and I liked being able to do that.
But you're saying, I think, that I could use iMovie to convert a Sony SR12's clips (or the Canon HF10's clips) to something I could then import? Would the quality be better than the Samsung's? Would it take a lot more time to do it this way?
Thanks for your advice,
Malcolm

Hi Steven,
Thanks for your reply... and I know you're right about all of this, but boy, does it ever have me scratching my head... why can I so easily import 35Mbps clips from my Sony EX-1, and then have trouble importing clips from something nowhere near as good. I realize it's simplistic of me to think that just because a little Sony SR12 is small doesn't mean the clip-size is... anyway, it's still kind of counter-intuitive to me...

Now in fact I was able to import one of the Samsung's mpeg clips directly into Avid Media Composer, and I liked being able to do that.
But you're saying, I think, that I could use iMovie to convert a Sony SR12's clips (or the Canon HF10's clips) to something I could then import? Would the quality be better than the Samsung's? Would it take a lot more time to do it this way?
Thanks for your advice,
Malcolm

My story on H.264 just arrived in the August issue of Broadcast Engineering and it details HOW h.264 is an amazingly powerful codec. But, it is VERY complex and requires very hi-performance chips in camcorders and BD disc players. It just is NOT a codec that can be used with today's computers.

In fact, it is a crazy development. Assume you buy an AVCHD camcorder that can average 21Mbps. It still will provide LESS visual quality than your EX-1 running "old fashioned" MPEG-2 at 35Mbps. So we are have a codec that offers us no greater image quality even at it's maximum!

The only thing it offers is a slightly lower data rate. But, with $1,000 camcorders offering 120GB -- who cares about the difference between 21Mbps and 32Mbps?

And, the price we pay for the UNNEEDED storage efficiency is a codec that won't be able to be edited like MPEG-2 for several more years -- perhaps half a decade! CLEARLY, the Japanese did NOT consider editing to be part of their goals for this new format.

What I don't understand is why, given "HDV" can be written to disk AND that it can scale-up to 30Mbps (JVC HD7), Sony developed AVCHD? The codec in my "old" HD7 beats any shipping AVCHD camcorder. Sony could have done what JVC did -- stick with MPEG-2.

The only advantage of 24Mbps is with SD cards. If that was the goal -- then Sony made the same error as Panasonic did with P2 -- introduced a format 5 years before the storage media was cheap as tape so it can be used once.

PS: to top it off -- Panasonic's AVCHD camcorders get terrible reviews. And, all the manual controls have ben stripped away from Sony. Frankly, the Japanese are repeating every error the US car companies made in staring in the late 60's. AVCHD makes as much sense as "fins" on a car. Do anything possible via MARKETING to get customers to buy the next model even though it offers no real benefit. And, just like GM today -- Sony os losing money.

But, it is VERY complex and requires very hi-performance chips in camcorders and BD disc players. It just is NOT a codec that can be used with today's computers.

How about this - the Toshiba Qosmio G55 with "Quad Core-HD processor", which basically is a Cell processor used in PS3. They promise a reduction in rendering time by a factor of 6 (though did not specify compared with what... ). The price is not too scary either.

http://explore.toshiba.com/laptops/qosmio/G50

Wonder why Sony has not come up with something similar sooner.

What I don't understand is why, given "HDV" can be written to disk AND that it can scale-up to 30Mbps (JVC HD7), Sony developed AVCHD?

One reason could be the fact that HDV is limited to 1440x1080i, while AVCHD can go all the way to 1920x1080p and with 5.1 audio. We all know the resolution figure does not represent the picture quality the camcorder can produce, but it does mean A LOT in the consumer market. The way they can boost "True HD", and can convince people to "upgrade".

AVCHD is Sony/Panasonic marketing name for MAIN or HIGH PROFILE H.264 multiplexed into a Transport Stream that has 4 extra bytes. The Samsung is not going to be any easier to edit. In fact, depending on the NLE it might not be possible to edit: Vegas still doesn't edit Panasonic AVCHD.

When writing my SR12 book I found iMovie 08 and Media Composer worked very well together.

But, AVCHD is not going to be EZ to edit until we all have 3GHz QUAD core computers -- and it will still be SLOW to edit until one gets a pair of QUAD core chips.

That's a lot of compute power for editing a "consumer" format. Of course, Japan doesn't make any money on NLEs. I predict they will introduce BD recorders with a harddisk that includes editing software.

In fact, the camcorders already have editing software built-in. They know the vast majority of consumers only need to delete clips, trim clips, and place them into the correct order. Then burn your playlist to BD.

In a way, I'm surprised no one makes a consumer editing package that only allows cuts between each GOP. Thus, when the final result is produced, there's no re-rendering required, the only thing the software would need to do is copy each GOP into the final sequence.

I assume there's a bit more than that, but I'm sure that such a simple package would take far less processing power (and time) than the current editing packages.


Bob Diaz

...One reason could be the fact that HDV is limited to 1440x1080i, while AVCHD can go all the way to 1920x1080p and with 5.1 audio. We all know the resolution figure does not represent the picture quality the camcorder can produce, but it does mean A LOT in the consumer market. The way they can boost "True HD", and can convince people to "upgrade".

HDV specifications are limited to 1440x1080, but there's no reason it can't be "upscaled" to 1920x1080, like "upscaling" to 30Mbps or more (either does not strictly conform to HDV specs). MPEG-2 compression is not limited to 1440x1080 resolution or 24Mbps. There's nothing to prevent recording 5.1 sound either (again, of course, that would not conform to the HDV spec either).

What Steve is pointing out is that Sony could have developed a format using MPEG-2 video compression (similar to, but exceeding the limits of the HDV specifications), rather than develop a new (and very different) format using MPEG4 AVC.

A format using MPEG-2 video compression (and whatever audio), that has a total maximum bitrate around 30-35Mbps (or even a little more perhaps) could be quite workable with Class-6 SDHC too. There really wasn't a compelling need to use a video codec, that requires more horsepower to edit gracefully than what we have available with today's mainstream desktop computers.