I have a Zoom H2. Lovely little gadget, but after the audio is brought into Vegas, I find it doesn't match. Very gradually over time it is out-of-sync.

What feature do I need in a new recorder so that it will match my video footage?

I am fed up with wireless mic hassles and interference. Mind you the wireless interference has only greatly affected two wedding videos in two years, but that is two too many. I never again want to tell a bride her video was f*****d up because of interference.

well what wireless are you using ? like anything else, people tend to buy cheap, get burned, then realize that sometimes you have to just pay the big bux for the great gear and not look back. in the end buying cheap is more expensive because you buy twice :(

realisitcally the new Zaxcom 900 series is the tool. since the transmitter can record to a SD card for 12 hrs, RF hits taking out the signal is a thing of the past as you have a backup that will be 100%. stepping down just a little, a used lectro 200 series would be a great option in the $2k range.

now that said, have you lost large chunks of audio, or simply taken a couple of small hits and lost a word or two ? how often are you shooting to say that twice in 2 years is a lot ? if you work 2 a weekend on average, about 100 days a year thats pretty good actually.

Using PR 81 (AKG) and the quality is outstanding when it works, which is most the time. I do about 40 weddings a year. I worked a church a month ago and it was mostly static due to the place being some kind of "hot spot" as the church's sound guy tells me AFTER the ceremony.

Over $1000 is not going to happen.

I have a Zoom H2. Lovely little gadget, but after the audio is brought into Vegas, I find it doesn't match. Very gradually over time it is out-of-sync.

What feature do I need in a new recorder so that it will match my video footage?

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To be certain that a double-system recorder will maintain sync with the camera over longer takes, you need some way of slaving the sync clocks in the camera and the recorder together. Note that these are NOT the same as the timecode clocks. There are a variety of ways to accomplish this but the most economical solution I can think of off hand is to upgrade your audio recorder to a Tascam HD-P2 that accepts composite video, blackburst, or tri-level sync from your camera and slaves its clock to it. Of course if you're looking for something to slip into the groom's pocket like you can with the Zoom the Tascam's a bit too big. There are other ways of doing it but they require a camera with genlock I/O and/or much more expensive recorders and things like Lockit boxes.

Thanks for the input. I suppose I might look at new wireless system. Mine was considered pretty good in it's day. Can anyone offer guidance as to what to look for in a new one as far as the ability to avoid interference?

I have a Zoom H2. Lovely little gadget, but after the audio is brought into Vegas, I find it doesn't match. Very gradually over time it is out-of-sync.
What feature do I need in a new recorder so that it will match my video footage?


You may find some of the comments in this thread (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=112398) useful, particularly those from Steve House.

Thanks Roger, very informative. Bottom line, I can use the Zoom, just chop up the audio. Since I'm primarily concerned about the vows, it's not a huge deal. Again, exellent thread, thanks for directing me there.

I would not be too happy getting married with a zoom h2 in my pocket. Or suggesting it to someone else. They are not 'that' small. It would ruin the hang of most suits would it not?.

They are bulky, no doubt. Any suggestions for a smaller one that is as good or better for less than $500?

you need to be realistic about this. a reliable solution at the price you want to pay isn't going to really happen. you're going to have to pick your level of reliability vs price at under $1k. also, how much have you already spent on cheap solutions that aren't working ? add them up. take what you've got, send them to ebay, and roll the cash over into something new.

a high quality wireless is a long term investment. unlike your camera which is near worthless in 3 years or so, a solid wireless will last you 10+ years. once you look at it that way, its a pretty cheap investment, never mind the peice of mind.

1st go to lectrosonics.com and look for the frequency tables. it will show you which freq's are open in your part of the country. once you know what freq's are open, you can then pick a wireless unit which should be ok.

you could try a audio technica 1800 which is diversity ( well the atennea's are really too close together for best results ) and there is a 2 transmitter 1ch receiver setup for $700 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/497600-REG/Audio_Technica_ATW_1813D_ATW_1813D_Wireless_Microphone.html

or the full 2 channel reciever 2 transmitters for $1300
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/460224-REG/Audio_Technica_ATW_1821D_ATW_1821_Dual_Wireless.html

since they are tunable its possible that this might meet your needs and price range. people here seem to like them, but lectro's they aren't.

Thanks for the info Steve. Actually the kit I'm using was a favorite in this forum at one time. I suspect at this point in time it is simpy outdated.

I appreciate the link to B and H, I had seen the $700 kit, but the two reviews for it were dismal. I'll look into it further.

you need to be realistic about this. a reliable solution at the price you want to pay isn't going to really happen. you're going to have to pick your level of reliability vs price at under $1k.
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but lectro's they aren't.

Just for a reality check on the going price for the level of quality necessary to have a pocket-sized recorder that holds sync for those longer shots, take a look (okay, have a drool over) at the Zaxcom TRX901 wireless transmitter with internal backup CF card recorder, a mere $2150 or so not including receiver (but even it's tracks might eventually drift off).

( well the atennea's are really too close together for best results )

Are these things spatial diversity? I always assumed they were frequency diversity (because the antennas are so close to one another).

I'll stick my 2cents worth in here since everyone seems to be talking about the AT1800. I have it, use it alot and frankly love it. I have not suffered any hits with it, the only noise I hear is minimal the receiver is a treat the body pak is plastic but solid. I do not use the stock mics I use Countryman EMWs one for the body pak and anXLR connection mic which I run thru a phantom box and the AT plugin transmitter. I use that on the lectern and for receptions I use the plugin on my Sennhiser e604 mic in front of the speakers.
I like the fact that I can adjust the levels (at least somewhat) on the receiver and I can also MIX the 2 mics on the receiver to go to seperate outs or to the same output-depending on what the need is.
The one thing I'm not crazy about is the miniXLR output connection. While they give you the cable to go from that to standard XLR I don't like the idea of having to use an intermediate cable to go from the receiver to my camera or mixer (depending on what my needs are). If the camera is on the tripod then I don't need the extra cable but there are times I do and I would prefer not having to use it. Time to make up a couple cables.
My take is the 1800 is definately a 5 star unit for the money. Nope, it's not a Lectro but for the work I do it works just fine and so far no complaints.

Don

Thanks for sharing your experience on the wireless, Don. Interestingly, if I get ANY noise from my current mic, I cannot hear it. Mine has worked so well and has such beautiful sound quality I hate to abandon it. I am sure I will use it until it's not usable anymore, even if only as a back-up.

That being said, I have liked Audio Technica products in the past, though never has a wireless made by them.

I probably will order a new kit at some point soon, and I will look hard at the AT1800.

Now, back to digital voice recorders! Can anyone recommend one with the quality of the H2 without the bulk? I've accepted I will have to chop the audio up when I use it to keep it synced.

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Now, back to digital voice recorders! Can anyone recommend one with the quality of the H2 without the bulk? I've accepted I will have to chop the audio up when I use it to keep it synced.

m-Audio Microtrack II might do it. Not much smaller than it or the H2 on the market that's not a toy.

well I think the point is, if you get a good wireless, you don't need the pocket size voice recorder. the AT or lectro body pack is much smaller. the zaxcom is amazingly small for its features.

Really appreciate the generous feedback.

First I think I will use a digital voice recorder as backup whenever I can, which I currently do not do. It is not always easy, and placement of the backup unit will be awkward if not impossible at times, but I will try. I have had many opportunities to use it and didn't out of sheer laziness. I've had it for almost a year and used it twice.

If I read the specs at the B&H website correctly, the microtrack II is twice the size, though probably better quality than the Zoom. And it weighs much more, over a pound compared to the 3.8 ounces of the Zoom. It's obviously a really nice recorder for the money however. I spent a long time researching devices before selecting the Zoom, and I see why now. I have a fine device for the money. I didn't understand the difficulty in obtaining audio in syncing up with video at the time. I must live with it not being perfect if I'm using a inexpensive recorder. And as Steve said even with an expensive unit there is no guarantee.

The Zaxcom you recommend, Steve, appears to be an amazing device, but way out of my price range.

The AT1800 is highly recommended by Don, and if Don says it's five-star for the money, it's five stars.

Lastly, I'm going to invest in a better shotgun for my rear cam. The Sony PD series comes with horrible shotguns, and the audio is useless to me, I use it only for syncing video footage. I run a Rode Videomic on my primary cam for the ceremony and it has saved me on the two occasions when my wireless failed.

I've said it before and I'll says it again, I don't know of anyplace where so much attention is lavished on an individual member in need of assistance as these forums. I literally can't imagine what I would do without DVinfonet. Thanks everyone.

Know just what you mean Jeff as I too have an H2 but was greatly disappointed to find it lost sync pretty quickly. Excellent in all other respects though and for the price the audio quality even from the inbuilt mics is a-a-mazing.

Thing is I 'upgraded' to the Zoom2 from Minidisc, and I have had three of those - one Sharp and two Sony machines. And all three of them have kept accurate sync with whatever camcorder I'm using at the time. Better still, the machines are so tiny there's no problem with slipping it into a groom's pocket, and the other machines can be dotted around the church.

You can never have too much audio backup. With Minidisc being so mechanical yet accurate sync-wise, how come the Zoom H2 (electronic and silent) can't manage better?

tom.

Tom, now that you have both mini-disc and the Zoom, which do you use for the groom? I had originally wanted a Sony mini-disc but for reasons I forget now I went with the Zoom.

The mini-disc recorders aren't produced any longer, are they?

Minidisc every time. 1) it stays in perfect sync. 2) It's really tiny - the recorder is the size of 3 MDs stacked up. 3) hard-wired - never any chance of interference 4) has lock button to disable all controls. 5) picks up the vows from the couple and priest as well when they wander off to the alter.

Downer is it must be loaded into my pc real-time, analogue in. I bought my last two second hand. This Saturday though I'll go with my Sony diversity radio, but it's far more intrusive fitting a belt clip transmitter than slipping the MD recorder into a nervous stranger's inside pocket.

tom.

Tom, I want one! Which models do you recommend?

I can't do other than recommend the model I have - the Sony MZ-R900. It has a slim flat-pak NiMh cell. But I'm sure there are countless other models out there - all going cheap because it's not MP3.

Here's a snap of my MD audio recorder in action - this one shown with the Sharp MD recorder that was 'lifted' from the top table at a wedding. Huh!

http://www.fortvir.net/gallery2/tom-s-photo-album/Mini_recording_studio.jpg.html

tom.

Nice little setup Tom! Thanks for the model #. Jeff

Bid on one in e-bay, they are inexpensive. Should be a decent backup audio source, especially if it stays in sync!

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Lastly, I'm going to invest in a better shotgun for my rear cam. The Sony PD series comes with horrible shotguns, and the audio is useless to me, I use it only for syncing video footage. I run a Rode Videomic on my primary cam for the ceremony and it has saved me on the two occasions when my wireless failed.

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Don't make the mistake of thinking the poor performance you're getting on the audio from your rear camera is due to the poor quality of the mics. They may well be c**p and due for replacement but that's not the source of the problem with your sound - distance and the physics of acoustics is. Shotgun mics are NOT the acoustic equivalent of a telephoto lens - such a device is phyiscally impossible - and even the most expensive of the breed needs to be close to the sound source to do a proper job recording dialog. A $250 Videomic at 3 feet from the talent will sound better than a $2500 Schoeps CMIT 15 feet from the talent. You'll get sound, maybe even be able to understand what they're saying if they're projecting, but it will sound like the ceremony is being held in the bottom of a well.

Spot on Steve, and it's why the cheap lapel mic feeding the MD sounds so good - it's up close and personal. In fact so up close that it sounds 'too good' and has to be mixed with church ambience from my far-away shotgun to souund more real.

I understand what you're saying Steve. As I said, as it is now the mic on the rear cam is useless for the church, and often cannot hear anything from the back of the church. It is great for environments where clipping is an issue, such as the dj's music at the reception, but in quieter places it's no good.

While the audio from the rear cam won't be useful for final recording, $200 isn't a lot for an added layer of better audio.

Bid on one in e-bay, they are inexpensive. Should be a decent backup audio source, especially if it stays in sync!


There's no quarantee it will. Tom has had a good experience with his, others have not. The same issues apply to mnidisc as to mp3 players - they both have sample clocks that need to be 'on-spec' as does the camera. All products have certain tolerances - consumer gear is usually manufactured to a looser tolerance than is professional gear, purely due to the economics of the consumer market place. If the luck of the draw is that your camera and your recorder are right on the money or are both slightly off-spec but by the same amount and in the same direction, you'll be able to hold sync over longish shots - 10 or 15 minutes. But if the Force was disturbed the day your particular camera or recorder came off their assembly lines and they're slightly off nominal but in opposite directions - perhaps the camera is a tad fast while the recorder is a skosh slow - your shots will drift out of sync fairly quickly. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

I notice he is transferring the recording in real time from the minidisc to the computer via analog. That can help with the sync issues because now you're playing back with the same sample clock that recorded it and what was recorded in 10 minutes will play in 10 minutes.Then it's being re-digitized with a clock that is probably closer to specthan the one in the recorer. The same technique could help an mp3 recording as well. But bear in mind that a digital->analogue->digital conversion chain can cause loss of quality.

I understand what you're saying Steve. As I said, as it is now the mic on the rear cam is useless for the church, and often cannot hear anything from the back of the church. It is great for environments where clipping is an issue, such as the dj's music at the reception, but in quieter places it's no good.

While the audio from the rear cam won't be useful for final recording, $200 isn't a lot for an added layer of better audio.

That's just it - I would expect it to be no better because I think the problem at hand is due to the distance rather than the mic and replacing the mic doesn't change that.

I have not been permitted to run cameras in several of our conservative churches any closer than from the back of the church, hence I have run the two from virtually identical distances, and the difference is startling. The Rode destroys the Sony mic. From the back of the church of course even the Rode is pretty poor, due to the distance, and I understand that. But it is 100% better than the OEM mic

Thanks Steve - and you may well have nailed it. Minidisc having to replay in real-time analogue in has seemed like a pain to me when the H2 is a file transfer from the SD card, so just maybe (fingers crossed) I can download the H2 analogue as well and keep (tighter if not perfect) sync. What a good idea.

Oh, I forgot to say. Yes, agree there'll be a audio quality loss, and especially so as I take the MD's signal from the headphone socket. But as I say, a cheap mic up close beats a posh one far away every time, so much so that I have to 'downgrade' the MD audio as it sounds so good.

Yes, I'll try that also!

What about Irivers? I've got six which I couple to Giant Squid mics (have 4 black and two white - about $us50 per recorder and mic) and at a wedding wire the groom, officiant, fathers, lecturn, and one spare for wherever - and shove an H2 up high in the middle of the church. Plus I have the camera mics with one camera having a Videomic...