Hi,

I'm new to the whole Glidecam world, but have successfully set up my Glidecam 4000 Pro and Canon XH-A1 camera. The problem is, that if I leave the camera and Glidecam set up overnight with good balance, when I come back to it the next morning, the balance is *way* off.

Any ideas why the balance keeps shifting? Everything is locked down tight.

Weird. It should stay balanced. You keep everything the same? I mean LCD at the exact same position, tape inside...
And how do you leave it overnight? Standing, hanging on a c-stand or just laying it down?

Yes, everything is the same! I left the rig and camera on an old mic stand so that it was hanging vertically overnight. This morning, it wasn't vertical anymore!

Someone mentioned this before on this forum, can't remember who right now but he had a plausible theory that graviational pull has a part to play in the balance shift over a period of a few hours +

Just thinking here- It would be intersting to see if it would be roughly back in balance at the same time the following night.

That must mean that I have it *incredibly* well balanced... :-)

Funny thing is... it's back in balance now (8 hours later). Hmmm. Very strange.

isn't it every 8 hours the tide changes?

Could be... but I was out all day, so 8 hours after I last checked was the first opportunity I had to look at it again! :-)

Julian - I have a 4000 on a smooth shooter rig. My camera is a HVX200. I am interested in your opinion about getting that static balance that is so elusive. Now I have been told that the heavier the rig is with the camera attached the more inertia that I have working for me in maintaining the COG and static balance. I try to keep it light for obvious reasons. What is your experience in that regard?

As far as the shifting of weight, all I can say is I remove EVERYTHING off of the camera that is not needed, I put everything that remains in exactly the same position that it would be in when I needed it. I use a quick release slide plate and a white grease pencil to mark where I place the unit when it is balanced.

Now it is possible for the unit to "settle in" but if everything is tight and remains unmoved I cant see how it would chance COG on you. Anyway, try this grease pencil idea and see if it helps. If something moves you should be able to spot it pretty fast. Best regards.

Julian - I have a 4000 on a smooth shooter rig. My camera is a HVX200. I am interested in your opinion about getting that static balance that is so elusive. Now I have been told that the heavier the rig is with the camera attached the more inertia that I have working for me in maintaining the COG and static balance. I try to keep it light for obvious reasons. What is your experience in that regard?

Well, I'm brand new to all of this... my Glidecam having arrived only yesterday, so I'm probably not the best person to ask. That said, my rig is pretty heavy as it is, and my back is complaining mightily! I have a total of 6 weights on the base plate. When I originally set it up, I had only 4, but found the rig was too light and moved off vertical too easily.

As far as the shifting of weight, all I can say is I remove EVERYTHING off of the camera that is not needed, I put everything that remains in exactly the same position that it would be in when I needed it. I use a quick release slide plate and a white grease pencil to mark where I place the unit when it is balanced.

I have nothing attached to the camera at all. I've marked the LCD position by cutting marks into the camera's plastic LCD mount. If I align the marks, it's always in the same position! I have a quick release mount on the Head Plate too, and once I achieved static balance, I used a sharp knife and scratched into the paint at the front and rear ends of the QR plate. So far, I haven't removed the camera from the Glidecam 4000 Pro since getting it... though my internal speaker on the XH-A1 just quit, so it'll have to go down the road to Canon Irvine for repair. I'm sure when it comes back, I'll have to go through the entire re-balancing act again after they shift wires around inside!

Now it is possible for the unit to "settle in" but if everything is tight and remains unmoved I cant see how it would chance COG on you.

I was wondering about "settling in" myself. We'll see what happens over the next few weeks or so.

I've just watched a Steadycam setup video on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns9gkbizph4&feature=related), and boy, he balanced the entire thing in about 15 seconds! The thumb screws which move the head plate forward/back and left/right REALLY make life easy... unlike the Gidecam's "pull the plate with your fingers and hope you move it enough/not too much" experience. It would be really nice to be able to modify the Head Plate so it has the same adjustment dials as the Steadycam.

By the way, take a look at my other post, tell me if you think I'm barking up the wrong tree!

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=119788

Julian:

It doesn't surprise me much that a rig can appear to shift weight if left hanging on the gimbal for hours--there may be just enough play in the gimbal and yoke that it can settle over time to a slightly different enough position to be noticeable. I don't know if GC offers a standard docking bracket for this size rig that allows it to be hung above the gimbal/under the stage but that is the appropriate way for it to be left unattended, not from the gimbal.

Charles, anything you have to say I'll take for gospel when it comes to these systems.
I assume since you haven't entained the theory that its not worth entertaining :)

Julian:

I don't know if GC offers a standard docking bracket for this size rig that allows it to be hung above the gimbal/under the stage but that is the appropriate way for it to be left unattended, not from the gimbal.

That makes perfect sense!! I'll see what can be done about getting a suitable bracket. Thanks again.

It might be, but here's the thing--we adjust the balance of the rig every time we put it on, trimming the tilt to preset headroom for every shot, sometimes even between takes. It's a given that things will shift slightly. It's pretty much of academic interest whether the gravitational pull will affect the balance of the rig, I mean it would be sort of fun to know what it does, I guess...

It might be, but here's the thing--we adjust the balance of the rig every time we put it on, trimming the tilt to preset headroom for every shot, sometimes even between takes.

I can see that would be the case. With the Steadycam brand of stabilizers, you at least have those nifty thumb-wheels for adjusting the camera balance. On the Glidecam, it's a question of loosening 8 thumb-screws and shiftin the Head and/or Mid Plates with your fingers, hoping not to overshoot! I guess you get what you pay for! I'd love to be able to replace or modify the Head and Mid Plates of my 4000 Pro so that it had a nice set of adjustment wheels!

I'm familiar with the Glidecam top stage. It's a deal killer for me personally but of course I'm used to geared adjustment knobs. It's how they've kept the cost down on that system, but it's a major flaw as far as I'm concerned--the smaller/lighter the rig, the more the need to touch up balance in a delicate fashion.

Hi everybody!
I bought a Flycam Pro 5000 (without any accesories) from a local dealer in my country (Romania). Well... at a first glance I'd say that everything it's working as Indian manufacturer of this unit says: nice and smooth. But there is a problem: after I balance the unit with my camcorder mounted ( XM2 + high capacity battery + wide angle converter - pretty heavy :-) ), I pick up the flycam with (let's say) my right hand and everything is fine. But if I grab the unit (by it's handle) with the other hand - let's say left hand - and the handle is oriented now to the left side of the main pole, the balance is broken. And so, I can't perfectly rotate the camcorder around the main pole axis, it's moving like a pendulum.
I rather say that the Flycam 5000 "precision manufactured" gimble is not so precise. I mean the line between the 2 screws is not the same with the ball bearing diameter.
My question is if other people met the same problem with similar stabilisation units? I mean could it be an accident and only my flycam has this problem? Maybe during transportation something occured...
I guess these days I'll go back to the dealer and try another unit. If it has the same issue well... that's right "you get what you pay for".

I can't remember if it was with my 4000 pro or with the Smooth Shooter but one of them did come with a bracket to hang the sled from that fits onto your average mic stand. Having said that it is designed to rest the gimbal on the bracket while at rest so it may not be the best situation. I do the wrong thing myself generally and hang the sled from a mic stand inserted through the handle, I don't use the bracket.

Quick release plates helps immensly btw. Generally I can be pretty confident that if I have set up static balance on the rig and then remover the camera, putting it back on with the quick release plate is pretty close to always back in balance.

Thumbscrews on the top stage.....they blow. Someday I'll see about DIYing some sort of threaded adjustment.

That is a sign the unit wasn't machined precise enough. My glidecam has the same problem. Turned one way its in balance, turn it the other way (or change hands) and the static balance is off. It makes panning shots more difficult.

Chris

Hi everybody!
I bought a Flycam Pro 5000 (without any accesories) from a local dealer in my country (Romania). Well... at a first glance I'd say that everything it's working as Indian manufacturer of this unit says: nice and smooth. But there is a problem: after I balance the unit with my camcorder mounted ( XM2 + high capacity battery + wide angle converter - pretty heavy :-) ), I pick up the flycam with (let's say) my right hand and everything is fine. But if I grab the unit (by it's handle) with the other hand - let's say left hand - and the handle is oriented now to the left side of the main pole, the balance is broken. And so, I can't perfectly rotate the camcorder around the main pole axis, it's moving like a pendulum.
I rather say that the Flycam 5000 "precision manufactured" gimble is not so precise. I mean the line between the 2 screws is not the same with the ball bearing diameter.
My question is if other people met the same problem with similar stabilisation units? I mean could it be an accident and only my flycam has this problem? Maybe during transportation something occured...
I guess these days I'll go back to the dealer and try another unit. If it has the same issue well... that's right "you get what you pay for".

sigh...the ONLY real moving part on a stabilizer is the gimbal (plus the arm if applicable), and if that is built incorrectly, ya got problems.

Perhaps this can serve as a counterpoint to those who dismiss the Steadicam brand products as too expensive as they feel they are "paying for the name". On the less expensive side, Indicam takes pains to make sure their gimbals are as linear as possible also.

I have the Merlin myself and it is a seriously precise little unit.
When i first took it out of the box I couldn't believe I had forked out €900 (yes €900) for a small piece of metal but the more I read on this forum and experience using this device the more it feels worth the money.

So am i correct then in the belief that the heavier the sled and the overall unit is the steadier the shots become?

I believe that is the case, as the more weight you have on the sled, the more force it takes to overcome the inertia of the system to start it in motion. Of course, once it's moving, it's going to take more effort to stop it!

Yes and yes and yes. However, as the weight of the system increases, the need for good design increases also, as a ill-fitting vest with poor weight distribution will contribute to operator fatigue very quickly, likewise the arm components are prone to much more torque and stress and binding. I've tried some inexpensive larger rigs that are just frustratingly terrible and I would be a little afraid to put a pricey camera on them.

Charles -

Have you ever operated the Smooth Shooter rig? If so how does it substantially differ from the steadicam experience?

I can appreciate the knobs for adjusting COG and that sounds wonderful to be honest. I own a Smooth Shooter and have accepted it's difficulties in many ways and perhaps I have just learned to "live without plumbing" so to speak. I have tried and tried to eliminate the floating feeling as I film, but it always feels like my skills only give a POV type shot from a fighter plane or something! Whats wrong?

Also I have tried to LIGHTEN the load - not increase it. Am I going about this the wrong way? ARE THE TWO ISSUES RELATED?

Thanks,

Yes, I have used the Smooth Shooter on an actual shoot and played with it at other times. Have not flown the current dual arm version but did a "reach-around" (no chuckles please) while a gent was demoing it at a trade show to check out the spring action.

There is a definitive difference between that and the current Steadicam brand arms. Even a novice would be able to detect that the action of the Steadicam arm is much more fluid and responsive. I'm not a shill for the Steadicam brand--my high-end rig is from different manufacturers--but in this end of the market, they are producing gear that is unequaled in performance.

The more weight you load onto your system (up to its limits), the more stable and inert it will be, which will make it easier to achieve smoother results. The arm will also be more responsive.

The skill of operating a stabilizer cannot be underestimated. Without proper guidance, some people will have a very hard time getting the rig to "settle down" and respond properly. Steadicam (Tiffen) is now selling their classic "EFP Training Video" which covers a lot of operating ground; even though the rigs are quite different, the technique is the same.

Steadicam (Tiffen) is now selling their classic "EFP Training Video" which covers a lot of operating ground; even though the rigs are quite different, the technique is the same.

Charles,

Would you please post a link for this video? I cannot find any mention of it on the Tiffen website. Do you have any other suggestions for operating training videos for stabalizers?

Charles,

Would you please post a link for this video? I cannot find any mention of it on the Tiffen website. Do you have any other suggestions for operating training videos for stabalizers?

James,

The part number for the DVD is DVD-200504.

You have to call Tiffen to order. It is listed on the website but its on one of the PDF documents for accessories. You can't search for it and there is no product page for it.

You can read a bit of discussion about it here - http://www.steadicamforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7100

Chris

"Good news everyone! In fact, I have bad news..." quote from Futurama 3000 :)
Yes, bad news for my Active Industries flycam. I went to my local dealer (finally) and I tried (the) other unit available. I balanced my camcorder but it happend the same thing: when I changed hands on handle, the balance is broken, even worse than first flycam unit. The dealer motivated that it might have be some "secret recipe" to correctly balance a flycam and he is not a specialist and he can't help me. Anyway, he admitted my demonstration that the unit shouldn't get into pendulum motion when spinning around ballbearing's axis and returned my money back.
At the and of this month he will bring Glidecam 2000 from US. I'll try one of these too. The dealer told me that I won't obtain a better result with Glidecam 2000 or 4000. I'll see...
Chris, you said that you experienced the same pendulum effect when change hands on handle. What brand of unit was it? You may send a private message if you don't want to make bad advertising to some certain brand.
On the other hand I'm interested to purchase directly from US an genuine Glidecam 2000.... is there anybody who use such unit with XM2 camcorder + large battery + wide angle lense? Is it functioning right?

"Good news everyone! In fact, I have bad news..." quote from Futurama 3000 :)

Chris, you said that you experienced the same pendulum effect when change hands on handle. What brand of unit was it? You may send a private message if you don't want to make bad advertising to some certain brand.
On the other hand I'm interested to purchase directly from US an genuine Glidecam 2000.... is there anybody who use such unit with XM2 camcorder + large battery + wide angle lense? Is it functioning right?

Hi Florin,

The model I have that changes balance between left and right hands is the Glidecam 2000. The newer ones I've seen have a different gimbal design than mine. I would try one and balance it before purchase if possible.

I set mine for about a 2.5 sec drop time so any balance problems will show up as a strong tilt. When I change hands it throws the static balance out quite a bit. I'll put it on the balance stand and take a couple of pictures to demonstrate.

"At the and of this month he will bring Glidecam 2000 from US. I'll try one of these too. The dealer told me that I won't obtain a better result with Glidecam 2000 or 4000. I'll see...

Hi Florin, I have tried the Glidecam, Flycam, Steadicam, Indicam, etc I like u to note that u need achieve dynamic plus static balance for good control. Dyn balance means when u spin the sled (with the handle mounting on say.. a mic stand), the sled should rotate quite well along the sled axis. One of the impt parameters to achieve balance,is to shift the CG to be slightly below the gimbal. The drop time to be 2-3sec.You may wish to note that some of the brands does not have the option to adjust the gimbal position. So that is a disadvantage alr. The next thing is u need to understand that the stage adjustments needs to be very precise to get tit right. If u have a budget issue, the Indicam is a fine product for all the adjustments it can do plus the quality. If u have the $$, u can go for the Steadicam Pilot. Below is a video which will help u understand the balancing. Hope this helps!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3PgqKF6ugY

That UTUBE Vid is a blast! Thanks - Its a desktop keeper!

Hmm... I'm afraid that I might have not paid too much attention to the dynamic balance. Sean, in the movie you pointed...they say about pendulum effect and how to prevent this thing from happening (adjusting the battery or the LCD). Damn, I might have returned my Flycam 5000 for nothing. :(
Anyway, tomorrow I'll go to another dealer who brings Glidecam 2000 PRO and 4000 and over the phone they say I can bring my camcorder and try the units before buy. Works for me.
I want to use a glidecam system for wedding videos but only for a few special shots. That is why I want to purchase only the sled and ... for budget reasons :)
Chris, you say that there are some differences between Glidecam old and new models? Are there some characteristics of the gimbal to determine if it's old or new one type?

I don't have any technical info to know exactly what the differences are Florin. All I can say is my GC has a bearing that is in a collar and it appears to be pressed together. The one I saw at NAB had a gimble with a plate with screws in it that held the bearing. I don't know why the are different but only that they are.

Tonight I'll be setting up and balancing my Pilot sled and I'll rig up the GC2000 as well.

I have dubbed this the "year of dynamic balance" for the small stabilizer market because between this (excellent) video and a new awareness in the message boards about the concept, there's a lot of buzz about DB. Unfortunately there are just as many misconceptions and folks are hoping to pin down many issues with their rigs to dynamic balance problems (not to mention issues with their operating). The reality is that unless you are noticeably out of whack with dynamic balance, it won't have that much of an effect on simple shots particularly walking in a straight line--it's when one does significant pans in a shot that you might find the rig dipping one way or another. Florin, the situation you described where the rig would lose STATIC balance when the gimbal was rotated around the post had nothing to do with dynamic balance, rather a non-linear gimbal as I think we discussed. Here's the breakdown: make sure the rig is statically balanced first. Pan it 90 degrees and stop it, then repeat at 180 degrees. Does it still hang level? If not, there is an issue with the gimbal and no matter what you do with dynamic balance, it will not spin flat. If it does hang level, give it a full spin. If it starts precessing (wobbling), go through the steps to balance it dynamically. Precessing however is not the pendulum effect; that is what happens when the rig is too bottom-heavy and a fast move through space will cause the rig to kick out like a swinging pendulum.

It is important to learn how to balance one's rig for sure. Static balance is 100% critical; dynamic balance is less so, depending on the operator ("The Shining" was shot on a version of the Steadicam that turned out to be massively out of whack dynamically, although nobody knew about that then--how do those shots look to you??! pretty good, right?). A mis-aligned, non-linear or friction-laden gimbal will cause many problems. Most of all though, it's about spending the most time in the rig practicing properly, because even a perfectly tuned rig will still require a good operator to make the shots sing.

Take Charles's advise.. its GOOD ;p thks for the pointer! Florin, if u r using for weddings then maybe u might wanna consider having a small cam to be used on the merlin. Thaz what some folks do as the medium sized cams are heavy for long/intermittant shots. Means have the medium cam on handheld, and the sapre small cam on the merlin permanently.

Pan it 90 degrees and stop it, then repeat at 180 degrees. Does it still hang level? If not, there is an issue with the gimbal and no matter what you do with dynamic balance, it will not spin flat. If it does hang level, give it a full spin. If it starts precessing (wobbling), go through the steps to balance it dynamically.
As I said a few posts ago it doesn't hang the level, even at a rotation of 45-60 degree. I believe the problem is a mis-aligned gimbal (simply physics laws) but after I saw the movie about Pilot Steady I thought maybe I was wrong. As I said, I tried another U-Flycam and the result was worse. Strange, isn't it? On the other hand, the dealer had only those 2 units on stock for a few months. Strange again. :)
However tomorrow I'll try genuine Glidecam 2000 and 4000 and of course, I'll let you all know the results.

As I said, I tried another U-Flycam and the result was worse. Strange, isn't it?

For what they are charging for it, no, not really.

Continuing on the "non-linear gimbal" part of this thread, I got an email from Tom at Glidecam today. They received my 4000 Pro in record time (it took just two days via USPS from Southern California to Massachussetts!) and worked on it today. He said they re-aligned the gimbal, and that when I receive it, I should be very happy with the result. There were a few other issues with the 4000 Pro which he didn't address in that email. One issue was that the telescoping section which attaches to the base plate, did not screw onto the base plate at exactly 90 degrees. When I screwed it in, I noticed the top part of the telescoping section would wobble around like crazy. This would mean that if you lower the telescoping section, the GC would move forwards, backwards or sideways, depending on how the tube was leaning.

So, it sounds like I'll be getting a linear gimbal, which should fix some of my problems. I still don't know how to get rid of the "right-sidedness" of my XH-A1 camera though, so that when the rig is held horizontally, the camera will not rotate right-side down. Or maybe this is unimportant?

Just get whoever your shooting to keep leaning to the right -)))

"Good news everyone! :)"
Today I've purchased a brand new Glidecam 2000 PRO. The dealer was very kind and allowed me to try before buy. Well...Glidecam is something else than Flycam even if the Indians copied very well the first one. Is very well manufactured, it looks like an original product.
My first concern when trying was changing hands on handle. Nothing happened, the camera remained in the same stable balance. I would like to bring my Glidecam 2000 PRO to the previous dealer and demonstrate to him what mens a REAL stabilisation system.
Once again, what you get is what you paid for. Thanks to all folks that helped me in resolving my issue. I can't wait to use my unit at an event on Saturday. I will be back with some edited footage next week , I hope.

u have 72hrs to practise =)

Florin, glad you got your issues worked out and let's perhaps all keep this thread in mind next time someone posts "anyone have experience with the Flycam"? as that comes up every other week around here.

I would like to bring my Glidecam 2000 PRO to the previous dealer and demonstrate to him what mens a REAL stabilisation system.

It's slightly ironic to me to hear this said about Glidecam, but everything is relative and as long as you are happy that's what counts...have you had the chance to try a Merlin, by the way?

I have never tried a Merlin, I'm sure that there are many other better stabilization systems than Glidecam. I only would like to demonstrate to the dealer (the one with Flycam) that he was wrong and he was trying to convince me that I didn't know how to properly balance de unit. Also he told me that is enough that the sled is balanced and I don't have to rotate it or change hands on handle. Anyway, the more arguments I was bringing the more irritated the dealer was getting. Now I am convinced of the "quality" of Flycam units because one unit can be an accident but a second one is certain bad quality.
I hope my unpleasant experience can be useful for other people

It's a rare reseller that actually understands what is involved with flying a stabilizer--none of these surprises me really.

Hi,
As I've promised, I'm back with a video sample with my camcorder mounted on Glidecam 2000 PRO. It's not perfect, but I am very pleased. The quality of video file is not very good (the image is a little foggy when panning) but I guess it's enough to illustrate flying a camcorder.
http://www.filebox.ro/download.php?key=9ff2ade241e85842661625d97e315680&lang=en

Florin, I think you forgot to post a link to your footage.

UPS has my Glidecam 4000 Pro "Out for delivery" right now. Unfortunately, I won't be back home until late tonight, so I won't have a chance to try it out until probably Thursday. I'll keep you all posted.

I uploaded at http://www.vimeo.com/1068928 a clip where for the first time in my life I used a glidecam. You can check the link in my previous post with some raw footage shot using glidecam.