Everyone that bought the EX1 bought it for a reason, weighed the pro's and (possible) cons and decided to buy it.

If you really needed different or interchangeable lenses or genlock or timecode, or a semi-shoulder mount then you either compromised or bought the wrong camera. My guess is that most EX1 owners did not need these things.



George/

You are speaking as if "all" the buyers of the EX1 had the EX3 to compare to, i am sure if they did, then "some" of them would have saved or waited for the EX3 if they had knowledge of it...

If Sony had released an EX1a that fixed the flaws a lot of us have been dealing with then I would have been at the front of the group of angry villagers with my pitch fork. This is a more expensive camera that for all we know could suffer the exact same issues as the EX1, although I'd be shocked if Sony made that mistake again!

The EX-3 is not by any means a replacement for the EX1.

-------------------------------
I disagree and is why many are now selling their EX-1s to buy the upgrade.
-------------------------


Different form factors,

--------------------------------
Not really just a semi shoulder mount.
--------------------------------

different lens options,

------------------------------
The ability to remove the lens was one option that appealed to most of the EX-1 Target market
-------------------------------------

considerably different price points.

---------------------------------
No its not only £1500 difference in the UK
-------------------------------------

It's like saying the the old XL1 was a replacement for the GL1. Two completely different cameras with different target markets.
The only difference here is that Sony released the fixed lens version first.

---------------------------------------
Yes just a coincidence
-----------------------------------------

So when the EX5 comes out and costs $20,000, will you still be angry that you bought an EX1 when a "better" camera was "just around the corner

------------------------------------------
Im not angry Im annoyed. You can try to twist this anyway you want but the truth is This is a replacement for a camera after less than four months old that was kept secret much earlier denying people a choice and getting many to buy twice.

which is exactly what is happening Many here are stating they will replace their EX-1 with the EX-3

THAT is what you would call replacing and makes it a replacement camera.

Yes, I'm having a hard time understanding how anyone could feel short-changed with the EX1. Think about it, it is still the same exact performace straight out of the box as the next newer model up which is double the cost. And it is still comparable to the F350 and even the F900 but with even better low light.

I dont feel shortchanged I feel annoyed because I was not given choice. The question is why was that choice denied? And its not double the cost here in the UK its £1500 dearer.

If Sony had released an EX1a that fixed the flaws a lot of us have been dealing with then I would have been at the front of the group of angry villagers with my pitch fork. This is a more expensive camera that for all we know could suffer the exact same issues as the EX1, although I'd be shocked if Sony made that mistake again!

They did its called the EX-3 As you just said you would be shocked if sony made the same mistake again. The EX-3 Is the same camera with few added extras and interchangeable lenses Improvements over the EX-1 for many here who would have liked the choice but were denied it.

Before I join the argument, I need to ask one essential question.

Did Sony fix the rolling shutter issues on the EX3?

I have yet to see anyone post a comment on this issue and yet it seems to be the most significant flaw in the EX1. Personally I could care less about what button was where or why it was hard to push ... those things I’ll learn to deal with.

But the fact that the rolling shutter had such a hard time with rapid flashes was really a problem for me.

My company services the pyrotechnic industry and their fore rapid flashes are what my footage is all about. Having the rolling shutter issue made the EX1 totally useless to me ... even though I loved everything else about it.

Even with all the advancements over my ole Z1U if the EX3 suffers the same rolling shutter issue than the EX3 is just as useless to me.

Now on the other hand, if the rolling shutter issues have been fixed ... than the EX3 is the freaking greatest thing since sliced bread!

Anyone know if Sony solved that problem with the EX3?

I actually tend to think that Sony's decision had more to do with the Cinealta division's own excitement over the new 1/2" CMOS tech than the market excitement. They were given a project to make a camera with it and holy crap it worked phenomenally, which motivated them to build upon it. For people involved in the forefront of creation, their biggest concerns when it has to do with timing is, is it really ready? finally not going to change much by the time it is released? They didn't announce the EX1 any sooner in the process.

Also I think the timing may be more of a method for them to illustrate a reflection of their excitement. There is pride behind the people that create, and it is most likely that waiting for a moment like NAB to reflect their excitement was a long hard wait for them as well.

Dave Ive nswered your points one by one No offence meant just defending my right to be annoyed.

OK, isn't the EX3 several thousand $$ more than the EX1??? That's an entirely different price point/market.

------------------------------------
No here in the UK the EX-3 is £1500 more
-----------------------------------------
SO the argument that you wanted to buy the "better" camera and Sony denied you that option sounds a little strange to me (hey, I can't afford either one...) to say the least.

----------------------------------------
Im sorry you cant afford to buy one.
--------------------------------------------

I buy and sell gear regularly in order to "upgrade" IF I can afford the difference.

-------------------------------------
What upgrde within three months of buying a product just out?
----------------------------------------------

That would seem to be the logical solution rather than getting mad at a big company that is just releasing cameras as they can

-------------------------------------
Yes I imagine replacing a product every three months and customers upgrading would be good business practice..
Im not mad at Sony Im annoyed
------------------------------------

(with all the teething problems with the EX1 and Z7, I'd imaging product delays are making sense to someone at the company right now). Be happy for the technology you have, and if you can afford the upgrade, just get on with it.

--------------------------------------------
What just shut up and go away? Im curious why you are keen to defend Sony or is it your moral duty to put me right? Well to your way of thinking anyway? Which of course I dont accept or agree with.
-------------------------------------------

There's always going to be something "newer and better", that's life in the age of technology. Go make timeless video - maybe it will make you feel better.

-----------------------------------------------
Dont worry I am just a little annoyed thats all. And dont think Im on my own because many are too. But most will never complain but they may think twice next time around I guess thats business though.


Not challenging your right to vent (and it appears most of that is coming from the UK...). It's just rather a waste of bandwidth... and no doubt when the moderators return from checking out the new toys and enjoying LV, this thread will magically disappear, as it's a bit out of character for DVi...


1500GBP = 3000 USD = SEVERAL THOUSAND DOLLAR PRICE DIFFERENCE, I believe roughly 50% more in USD, maybe less in the UK, that's a different price point if I ever saw one. If I'm shopping for a camera with a $5K budget, I'm not looking at $7500 cameras...

Sony has released a new camera, I'm not defending their choice to do so, they can do business as they wish, and if they release products that meet the needs out there, they will continue to do business. I'm just glad that they create good usable products. If someone else has a "better" product and I can swing it, I'll gladly buy that, so should you <wink>!

I fully expect that because of product release and marketing considerations, the camera I just bought (or the computer or TV or whatever) a couple months ago will be replaced with an "upgraded" model in less than a year (or at least one will be announced - I'm actually watching carefully for just such an announcement right now, that may cause me to drop two cams I just bought for something else... but I knew that was a possibility - I've got one other I wish there was a replacement in the works, but it didn't do well in the market, so may not be in line for replacement).

Just about all my shiny "new stuff" is obsolete, but I tend to find it better to enjoy it than worry too terribly much about the next big thing coming down the pipe... Sure it's a bugger to buy something only to find "something better" (or worse yet they just dropped the price...), but not sure it's anything to get riled up over, really... if that doesn't make sense to you, well, that's perfectly fine too. 'nuf said.

I dont feel shortchanged I feel annoyed because I was not given choice. The question is why was that choice denied? And its not double the cost here in the UK its £1500 dearer.

You do know that the EX3 is not expected until another 3 months or so. And first roumors have been buzzing for about a month (maybe even longer).

There is no secret conspiracy. This is just cam 2 in the EX line. It has some more industry features, that won't be that interesting for the EX1 target market of single camera shootists.

I doubt very many EX1 owners would have gone for the EX3. I'm sure there are some that would liked to have the option of interchangable lenses or would have liked timecode, or the semi-shoulder mount but even some of those would rather have put that $3k extra towards SxS cards or a good rig.

Now I'm not speaking for anyone but myself and I'm sure there are a few that could and would have gone with an EX3, and they still can. In three months or so.

The EX1 was announced a year ago as the first of a new series. After the first models, you don't take another year to follow it up with a model aimed at the higher end...

And if Sony was out to get you they would have started with the higher priced EX3 model and then intruduced the EX1, 9 months later. See how "you" (not you, Mark just anyone) liked to have payed 13k only nine months ago "and now they're bringing out a unit for 8k that delivers the same footage, just lacks some of those features I never needed anyway!".

Come on... Could they ever have gotten it right?

George/

P.S. My confrontational style of writing is not intended to offend anyone. I really just can't help being outspoken.

...exactly!

Not challenging your right to vent (and it appears most of that is coming from the UK...). It's just rather a waste of bandwidth... and no doubt when the moderators return from checking out the new toys and enjoying LV, this thread will magically disappear, as it's a bit out of character for DVi...


1500GBP = 3000 USD = SEVERAL THOUSAND DOLLAR PRICE DIFFERENCE, I believe roughly 50% more in USD, maybe less in the UK, that's a different price point if I ever saw one. If I'm shopping for a camera with a $5K budget, I'm not looking at $7500 cameras...

Sony has released a new camera, I'm not defending their choice to do so, they can do business as they wish, and if they release products that meet the needs out there, they will continue to do business. I'm just glad that they create good usable products. If someone else has a "better" product and I can swing it, I'll gladly buy that, so should you <wink>!

I fully expect that because of product release and marketing considerations, the camera I just bought (or the computer or TV or whatever) a couple months ago will be replaced with an "upgraded" model in less than a year (or at least one will be announced - I'm actually watching carefully for just such an announcement right now, that may cause me to drop two cams I just bought for something else... but I knew that was a possibility - I've got one other I wish there was a replacement in the works, but it didn't do well in the market, so may not be in line for replacement).

Just about all my shiny "new stuff" is obsolete, but I tend to find it better to enjoy it than worry too terribly much about the next big thing coming down the pipe... Sure it's a bugger to buy something only to find "something better" (or worse yet they just dropped the price...), but not sure it's anything to get riled up over, really... if that doesn't make sense to you, well, that's perfectly fine too. 'nuf said.

I'm not even venting Dave All I did was state my point of view and now getting criticised for it. I am annoyed about what I see as a replacement camera. OR a better version of the EX-1. Its no ones moral duty to protect Sonys interests or mine However it seems many would protect Sonys marketing decisions and deride any criticism of it. Is that how you see this? My opinion nd defence of it lowers the tone of the forum. Thats pretty sad. We ll have a right to question things. I must admit though the moral majority seem to have had a bit of a field day defending Sony Although Im sure you and others may not always feel that way in the future. Anyway good luck with your new EX-3 OR 5 Sorry about having n opinion will try to only say good things about Sony in the future.

You know, good things may come of this for all of us. We may finaly get to know if some of the issues are with the lens, the sensors or the firmware. All we needed was the EX3!

Much better to get Sony to fix the issues with existing EX1's than to mull over what could have been.

Also, EX1's will be harder to get as Sony by it's own admission has a hard time keeping up with demand for the EX-es and the 3 uses alot of the same components. That ensures a good fair market value should you trade in an EX1.

See, its all positive :)

George/

P.S. Mark, very often introductions start at the higer end to capitalize and then features 'trickle' down to the common man, like me.

On the topic of Sony hiding the goods ...

(Please pardon the random nature of these comments, I’m about to go into a rant!)

I always want one feature or another in my equipment and fortunately Sony is very good at finding what people want and then building that into their products. Every time I ever use a camera I say "I wish this camera had ..." and the next version of camera has that feature! It's great!

So before you gripe, just be happy for what you have ... your EX1 is better than my Z1U! But regardless of the technical advancements there are creative minds that could run circles around both of us with a VX1000! Having the newest piece of equipment doesn’t make you good ... being good makes you good ... so use your EX1 to make something good!

Yea yea, so maybe you would have paid the extra cash for an EX3 so you could have the interchangeable lens ... but would you have really used that feature? You do realize that a good 1/2" or prime lens is going to cost twice as much as the camera right? So if you have that kind of money to be buying those lenses than why are you complaining about having to buy the EX3?

And if you want to talk price points ... look at your batteries ... they cost what? About $100 bucks each? Upgrade to a full size camera and you can pay $600 for your batteries and your lens (which won’t come with the body) will cost you another $12,000! These small cameras are the bee’s knees in whatever configuration!

When I started my interest in media I was using single chip VHS-C cameras and editing on a 486 PC or a linear system! (Yea I know, if you’re older than me you where carving you video on stone tablets one frame at time!) That was 10-12 years ago and now we have all this awesome HD technology and stock laptops that can render 20 layers of HD video in real time ... and we can all give George Lucas a run for his money for under $15,000!

That is of course, assuming that we learn how to actually use our equipment and not just complain about it or show it off.

Since I like to distill things . . .

What it comes down to is if both the EX1 and EX3 had been available (or at least announced) at the same time, some number of people would gladly have spent a few more grand for the EX3.

IMHO they are priced far enough apart that one has to consider whether one wants to pay a few more grand for the option to have interchangeable lenses . . . and then a few more grand to get those lenses. Alas only those CURRENTLY considering the two have that option.

Those who bought the EX1 will now have to consider whether it's worth it to sell their EX1 and get the EX3. I think one problem that is peeving some is that some bought the EX1 many months ago but are FIRST getting a working version back from the Sony shop now. They've had no chance to do some business to cover some of the lose in value on the sale of the slightly used camera.

I do NOT think one can call the EX3 a replacement of the EX1. It's not like with Panasonic where they went from DVX100 to DVX100a and then a longer pause, DVX100b. Those all seemed to be fixes for issues.

Maybe I'm psychic or something but it seemed obvious to me at the time the EX1 was announced that an interchangeable lens with shoulder mount ability would be announced by NAB. It seemed plain as day to me that Sony would want BOTH options on the market ASAP. I posted as much on some threads. It seems this was less obvious to others though. I think the whole thing was even more obvious when Sony had both the Z7 and Z270 hitting the market.

I'll say it real LOUDLY (although Sony won't) but I wouldn't be surprised if you see either and/or MPEG2 4:2:2 or 2/3" chip (think competition with Panasonic and Scarlet) by next NAB in the EX series. Will you be kicking yourself if you get the EX3 in August or September when 3 to 5 months later the EX5 is announced and delivered?

I don't think losing this thread would be a bad thing at all, getting to be a real waste of bandwidth.

While I wouldn't want to lose it I think it's time for Chris to lock it.

It is an argument worth having but at this point all the "points" have been played.

I believe that waiting for NAB was simply a way to best reflect Cinealta's excitement of the product.

The most important point that everyone needs to keep in mind is that when the EX1 was announced, it *was* specifically announced as just the first of a new line. That indicates that we should anticipate incremental improvement. They didn't have to tell us that.

I agree Mike.

As to marketing, if one is coming out with an entire new line, the spacing is going to be VERY TIGHT. That's why I wouldn't be surprised if a third camera EX camera is announced within months.

Just as there's the F335 and F355, the third EX camera may be the equivalent of the PDW-700.

If SxS XDCAM is going to be competitive to P2 DVCProHD it's all got to get out there FAST. Sony probably wants to match the P2 series from bottom to top.

I believe that waiting for NAB was simply a way to best reflect Cinealta's excitement of the product.

The most important point that everyone needs to keep in mind is that when the EX1 was announced, it *was* specifically announced as just the first of a new line. That indicates that we should anticipate incremental improvement. They didn't have to tell us that.

I agree Mike.

As to marketing, if one is coming out with an entire new line, the spacing is going to be VERY TIGHT. That's why I wouldn't be surprised if a third camera EX camera is announced within months.

Just as there's the F335 and F355, the third EX camera may be the equivalent of the PDW-700.

If SxS XDCAM is going to be competitive to P2 DVCProHD it's all got to get out there FAST. Sony probably wants to match the P2 series from bottom to top.

Well to add my speculation

But is the EX A new line? Whats new about it? from the XDCAMS? Its price portabilty and fixed lens? I disgree this is a new line The EX1 was the baby brother to the XDCAM Range.

This new EX-3 is simply a better version of the EX-1 giving EX-1 users who are a new market for sony a better version of a product they wanted for years. Previously denied in favour of keeping the pro stuff for their pro lineup but with the advent of the RED upping the ante have given up a part to the indie community. My feeling is before commiting anything else to this errr range they will wait and see what Red and the market does next. One thing that is coming is a new improved XDCAM range that supercedes the EX Cameras. The next thing is if Jim Jannard doesnt succeed then Support for the EX cameras will go. My feeling is that Sony want to keep the Indie community happy and the Pro market. Keeping the RED at bay from all sides once thats achieved I think from what I have seen so far its goodbye to the EX range and the old Pro and consumer lines clearly drawn again.

But is the EX A new line? Whats new about it? from the XDCAMS? Its price portabilty and fixed lens? I disgree this is a new line The EX1 was the baby brother to the XDCAM Range.

Sony announced that the EX1 was just the first of a new series based on the new CMOS chips to extend the XDCAM line. So "line" or "series", whatever, they both entail additional cameras to come based on the chip. I don't feel they have manipulated the market by any means.

I tend to think that because of the quick development of trends in the market, new technology needs to be introduced as soon as possible and improvements developed afterwards in order to create momentum as soon as possible.

Sony announced that the EX1 was just the first of a new series based on the new CMOS chips to extend the XDCAM line. So "line" or "series", whatever, they both entail additional cameras to come based on the chip. I don't feel they have manipulated the market by any means.

I tend to think that because of the quick development of trends in the market, new technology needs to be introduced as soon as possible and improvements developed afterwards in order to create momentum as soon as possible.

I disagree. Consumers have for years have been kept out of pro gear. And new product ranges with slight improvements to keep consumers upgrading has been the norm. Although usually retailers are given more time to sell their stuff. Since the internet Companies like Sony can hit the market quicker and better than ever often leaving retailers with equipment no one wants and greatly discounted.

Really good point. Now I can understand why that precedent had led you to believe that something like the EX3 would never happen even in light of the announcements at the time of the EX1's release. Fortunately the EX1 won't depreciate much over the next few months, in fact the demand may even increase now that everything about the EX3 has been revealed and those that have been fence-sitting on the EX1 will likely be content to buy it now.

Really good point. Now I can understand why that precedent had led you to believe that something like the EX3 would never happen even in light of the announcements at the time of the EX1's release. Fortunately the EX1 won't depreciate much over the next few months, in fact the demand may even increase now that everything about the EX3 has been revealed and those that have been fence-sitting on the EX1 will likely be content to buy it now.

Yep, that would be me. I placed my EX1 order today. ;)

Congratulations!

Thanks Mike. It was a little nerve-wracking making that decision given the rash of problems this camera seems to have. I'm hoping that Sony either has most of the bugs ironed out OR that they will start issuing firmware patches that WE can apply.

Wish me luck. I'm going to get it Saturday!

Thanks Mike. It was a little nerve-wracking making that decision given the rash of problems this camera seems to have. I'm hoping that Sony either has most of the bugs ironed out OR that they will start issuing firmware patches that WE can apply.

Wish me luck. I'm going to get it Saturday!

There is a very good chance you should get a good unit with no problems being that it is so late in the game.

Did you get it from one of the sponsors on this website..B&H, Abel Cinetech..etc?

It's just rather a waste of bandwidth... and no doubt when the moderators return from checking out the new toys and enjoying LV, this thread will magically disappear, as it's a bit out of character for DVi...

While I wouldn't want to lose it I think it's time for Chris to lock it. It is an argument worth having but at this point all the "points" have been played.

Fully agree with both of you...

This thread is *completely* out of character for DV Info Net.

And it's thoroughly baked -- so therefore closed.

For those who want to vent: go start a blog! This site is an information exchange, not a soap box for personal ranting. And another thing... for those who like posting "Chris might ban me for saying this" may indeed find themselves actually banned, not for what they were going to say, but because I hate to disappoint when expectations are involved. Thanks all,