Hi
I'm shooting on a JVC GY-111E with a Sennheiser ME66/K6 and a K-tek windshield system; with XLR input...no other system, both indoors and outdoors.

How do I set audio levels correctly to ensure best sound (assuming locations and other stuff are taken care of)? At what decibels should the sound be for the best recording? Also, does keeping it in either stereo or mono make a difference?
Would really appreciate any help in this regard.

Thanks!

Sareesh, as long as the levels are not at extremes of the audio threshold JVC's inbuilt audio limiter does a darn good job (the best in my opinion.) As long as you've set the correct reference level in the audio menu there really should be no need to set or ride the levels manually. Only last week I shot a live band on stage that were quite loud and to my surprise I got no hard clipping with the ALC on (I was using a Rode NT1).

As far as routing channel 2 input to channel one goes I would recommend you do it as a matter of redundancy, however as long as either channel has the source audio it really does not make much difference as it will always be a mono signal.

JT

Professionals manually set zero level or reference tone at -20db in the digital world which is equal to 0db in the analog world. If set up your camera this way you will have plenty of head room without having levels that are also too low.

Auto settings will not always bail you out and besides professionals control their equipment not the other way around.

Have to agree to set audio levels manually.

In my experience the mic inputs are not terribly good on the camera. A really good alternative solution is to buy a single channel of Sound Devices MP -1 which is outstanding and then go line level into one of your channels. This has an inbuilt limiter which is very difficult to clip. I have this device on the back of a bracket on the camera. it is pretty light. You can velro it onto an anton bauer wireless mic holder.

There is a world of difference between the sound you will capture using a professional preamp like this and the inbuilt pramp on the camera which are not very robust.

Rob

...besides professionals control their equipment not the other way around.

Of course Rick, that's why we bought into the JVC Pro-HD form factor. Furthermore, under controlled audio environments this is absolutely true, but in practice wouldn't it be better to err on the side of caution? Besides Sareesh has not been specific about where, how & what he is shooting. One thing I can say is that unless he has a sound guy then riding audio faders while trying to maintain framing, exposure & focus is asking for trouble. Just like blown highlights, hard clipped digital audio is lost.

Robert, I doubt that any sub $10K camcorder has high quality mic pres, besides I would point the finger at HDV audio compression before I picked on the quality of camcorder mic pres & limiters. In my experience with Panasonic & Canon I think JVC's limiter handles audio saturation most graciously. Your suggestion of an proper external Pre-Amp is definitely a good one though .

At the end of the day if your project has a serious sound requirement then for the sake of the final product you should be using a sound guy instead of relying on your camcorder to do everything.

Sareesh, give us some more info about what you are shooting and your environment and we might be able to give you better advice.

JT

Agreed that in a very dynamic audio environment the positioning of the gain controls on the camera is pretty hopeless.

Also agreed that the audio compression is a bit sad. In critical situations I record double sound to a Sound Devices 722 but this can be cumbersome.

My solution is pretty much based on the need for a portable solution that delivered sound that I am more than satisfied with (part of my other life is as a sound recordist) . Going line level in at least bypasses the preamps and gives you usable sound.

And yes, we should be focusing on what Sareesh needs to know.

Rob

Hi
I'm shooting on a JVC GY-111E with a Sennheiser ME66/K6 and a K-tek windshield system; with XLR input...no other system, both indoors and outdoors.

How do I set audio levels correctly to ensure best sound (assuming locations and other stuff are taken care of)? At what decibels should the sound be for the best recording? Also, does keeping it in either stereo or mono make a difference?
Would really appreciate any help in this regard.

Thanks!

If you are not using a mixer, you definitely need to set your reference level at -20. Basically, you are looking for your average peaks to get close to the -16 range.

If you have a good mixer w/ good limiters...I prefer to set the reference tone at -12 for most stuff (unless there is high dynamic range).

And when you are only using one mic...you can do both. Send a lower level on one track that is less likely to bump up against the limiter.

The ME66 is not really a good option for indoors audio. A good hyper cardioid mic is prefered because low frequencies are not directional.

The only excuse to ever not set your level manually is when you are just shooting B-roll and you can just switch one track to auto...just make sure you keep it in manual level all other times.

when I'm doing news and current affairs work, usually shooting solo (without a sound tech), i set my onboard mic on channel one, set to auto, to pick up natsot. Then I run my Sennheiser radio mic receiver into channel two, and set that manually. I use a Beyer dynamic interview mic with a sennheiser transmitter unit, and the sennheiser lapel mic/belt pack transmitter unit. I find the JVC's auto level on channel one is fine, even in extreme circumstances (noisy crowds of pakistani demonstrators, inside an armoured personnel carrier). But for interviews I'll always set manual levels through channel two.

At the end of the day if your project has a serious sound requirement then for the sake of the final product you should be using a sound guy instead of relying on your camcorder to do everything.

JT

That's true, but when it's one man band time, when you're responsible for sound, camera, lighting, directing, everything, I think it's really time to consider auto settings. Very hard to do all those jobs fluently in manual mode, so easy to miss something, forget something, or basically screw something up. It's a lot of balls to keep in the air. Any one of them is difficult enough.

Those auto features aren't there so your girl friend can use the camera, auto settings have a legitimate time and place in video production.

I leave channel 1 on Auto and channel 2 knocked back way down so I have a 2nd chance to get audio in case there is a large noise. My only question (self doubt) is....... IS the 2nd channel from the same mic bypassing the auto levels of channel 1 or am I riding the levels from an already adjusted Auto level. HMM.. I believe with some experiementation that that it is BEFORE the auto adjusting circuit... yet I am unwilling to bet any money on that statement.

Thanks James.
I'm shooting a low-budget indie feature, so I have a crew with me (minimal though). I'm finding it difficult to hire a good sound guy, so I'll probably be delegating this job to an assistant. We're shooting interiors and exteriors. We did shoot a short film in January, and what I basically did there was use the camera's onboard mike on one channel and my me66 on the other. The sound was in auto and i checked the levels to see they don't reach the end (Now I know it's supposed to be -3dB).

I'm thinking, if I can teach the assistant (also boom guy with headphones) to just check a few things (hand him over a check list and make him practice and hope for the best) while shooting, we shouldn't be too bad. I would also be doing tests with each setup.

I understand I should fix the audio levels at -20dB. What about the INPUT MIC REF?

I did learn the hard way that one can't record dialog meant for exteriors in a closed room, and that it's practically impossible to remove room reverb with audition cs3 (which i used to play with the sound). Unfortunately, I'm forced to use music now to cover up these sounds. I don't want to make the same mistakes again. So I want to make sure the camera has the best settings possible, the boom is in the right place (or best possible place), and the audio levels won't be clipped. Is there anything else I can do to make the sounds more professional? One more dumb question: should i use the windshield system for interior recordings or is that an absolutely insane thing to do?

Thanks for everything!

when I'm doing news and current affairs work, usually shooting solo (without a sound tech), i set my onboard mic on channel one, set to auto, to pick up natsot. Then I run my Sennheiser radio mic receiver into channel two, and set that manually. I use a Beyer dynamic interview mic with a sennheiser transmitter unit, and the sennheiser lapel mic/belt pack transmitter unit. I find the JVC's auto level on channel one is fine, even in extreme circumstances (noisy crowds of pakistani demonstrators, inside an armoured personnel carrier). But for interviews I'll always set manual levels through channel two.

Thanks Robert, I did exactly this when I shot my short film in January. But I used the shotgun only. Question is: how do you set one channel to auto and the other to manual?

...I don't want to make the same mistakes again. So I want to make sure the camera has the best settings possible, the boom is in the right place (or best possible place), and the audio levels won't be clipped. Is there anything else I can do to make the sounds more professional? One more dumb question: should i use the windshield system for interior recordings or is that an absolutely insane thing to do? ...

I NEVER use the big windshield inside. It's purpose is to keep wind noise from effecting the mic. It also cuts some of the high frequencies. And it adds unecessary weight to the boom. Just use a small foam windscreen for interiors to inhibit any motion noise. Some mics ...especially the ME66...sound too bright on the top end without the small foam windscreen. The foam windscreen for interiors will make the boom guy a happy boomer.

To sound more professional...you need to get professional tools. The best upgrade you can do is get a couple of great sounding mics.

The logical upgrade path would be...

1) Mics, - shotgun: Sanken CS3e, Schoeps CMIT5u, or Sennheiser 416
Hypercardiod for interiors: Schoeps MK41, Audio Technica AT4053a, Sennheiser MKH840
Lavs: countryman B6, Sanken COS11

2) MIXER - Sound Devices 302 or 442, great mic premamps and excellent limiters.

3) External 24 bit multitrack recorder.

Again, I would never use AUTO levels for something like a dramatic film recording. It artificially pumps up low levels and adds a background level that constanly changes.

Hello
I use a NT1, Audio on manual mode.

I keep the wheel adjustment at about 5-6
if i need more volume i do it in post.

I'm a pro musican i have a audio studio and the last thing you want is clipping or distortion.

LESS IS BEST

Just my opinion.
JOE

A vote for Jim's advice.

The ME66 can sound shrill/very bright.

If there are budget considerations (always!), try the Rode NTG-1 which is an excellent shot gun microphone and much nicer/more natural sounding than the ME66.

An external mixer will allow you to go line level in. Your sound will improve dramatically just by getting a better microphone and not relying upon the mic preamps of the camera.

And do not use auto for the reason Jim gives. Even in the most difficult audio environments, with practice you can get levels right.

Rob

And do not use auto for the reason Jim gives. Even in the most difficult audio environments, with practice you can get levels right.

Rob

With respect, Robert, I think a lot depends on the circumstances. If you have time, space, and support to be able to check your audio levels consistently through the shoot, I'd absolutely agree with you. When I shoot as DoP with a sound tech and a camera assistant, of course I'd leave levels on manual, and play them.

But if I'm working alone in a difficult or complicated environment, I'd rather get some sound than no sound. And although one should always be aware of the audio level indicators, sometimes there are just too many other things to think about. Once, years ago, I had Audio 1 and 2 on my 400AP Betacam set to manual. Somehow, both wheels were knocked down to zero. I didn't know there was a problem till I was back in the edit. And you can't get news to do a second take for level.

So I will continue to run the camera mic through channel 1 on auto, despite the and, if I have the opportunity to, run a mic on manual through channel 2.

Thanks Robert, I did exactly this when I shot my short film in January. But I used the shotgun only. Question is: how do you set one channel to auto and the other to manual?

Sareesh, if you look on the panel behind the flip out LCD you will see the "audio select" switches for each channel. Put "Ch1" to Auto, "Ch2" to Manual. You'll need to run Ch 1 - Ch 1 and Ch 2 - Ch 2 on the audio select switches by the XLR input.. And I suggest you go into the menu and set the Audio Level indicators to "on", so that you can see what both channels are doing as you record.

A lot of good advice here. Thanks Jim for the equipment upgrade list, since I'm in the market for better mics myself.

As everyone seems to realize, there are different strategies for different scenarios and budgets. There's no doubt that if my camera is on the battlefield, that it's going to be in auto. Now whether I stay with the camera is another story...

Recording a feature is not a good situation to be doing run and gun audio (the "Dogme 95" approach was criticized even back then...).

Here's a hybrid approach to what I read above that I use on certain occasions that I think will be useful in Saresh's circumstance assuming no extra budget can be allocated. When there is just one good audio source, put it on both channels. If there are real dynamics in audio, and you are heeavily involved in several other tasks, set one level conservatively and the other in auto (as Robert A. suggests). However, if there is reasonable control of the situation, like most dialogue (hopefully you aren't directing as well...), then I find a good approach is to set the level accurately as possible on channel 1, then lower the level of the same signal on channel 2 (about 6db less, depending on the scene). This way, you have a good clean primary source, but if levels do go higher than expected (actors get excited or action audio), there is a clean section to edit in during post. Auto could have level sweeps or other compression artifacts from a sudden loud section that this extra conservative. Same signal, at different manual level settings.

Setting the level manual level "accurately". Like setting exposure, this is both simple in concept, and sometimes challenging in execution. There is one appropriate fixed setting for a scene, assuming of course that a professional isn't riding the inputs with good meters and hi-end equipment. You can arrive at this several ways, but usually the focus is on avoiding the worst scenario - in this case, that is distortion from too high a level. If you can reproduce the audio and mic position properly for the loudest part of that scene (assuming we set levels for every scene!), then the loudest sound in a dynamic scene should be approximately halfway between the dot for reference level (-20db) and the last dot (0db = distortion). If the scene has dynamic loud sections, you can push this a bit higher (never all the way to the end!), if it has quiet dialogue throughout, it should hover around the reference dot.

A quick rant about reference level. It's really only meaningful to set your camera controls to reference tone when a monitored and properly set mixer is being used. If mics are connected directly to the camera, you have to find the range by monitoring the scene audio levels. The loudness of the scene, microphone used, proximity to audio source are all important factors.

Sorry Joseph, but I wouldn't think a level adjustment wheel position is helpful here, beyond being a starting point for adjustment.

A lot of low-budget films make the mistake of compromising on audio, but it's very important for the end audience. We can visually adjust to the picture being obscured at times, but if dialogue can't be comprehended - it's a big problem.

I've had hours in the edit room trying to make the best of problem audio, and that experience is highly recommended for getting priorities right in future productions (hehe!). Room ambience or reverb is very easy to add to flat audio, and virtually impossible to remove after the fact. One thing you can do on set is hanging sound blankets just out of camera range or over hard flat surfaces like windows- it's cheap and helps a lot in many situations - both for reflection (reverb) and outside noise interference (also easy to add traffic and noise afterwards!).

For low budget filmmaking, having and deploying a wired or wireless lavaliere or 2 is very useful. On a proper budgeted film set, you'd use them much less, but the compromises of a mediocre shotgun mic with a single inexperienced boom operator are too much in some scenarios. The lavalier will have far less room ambience and better isolation from surroundings in most settings, and often this is more important than the more natural sound characteristics of a shotgun. Sometimes you can "plant" a hidden lav in a scene. Hiding one on a person takes some practice, but when the shot goes wide, and the boom is distant.... Practicality before subtlety when on a budget. All clean useable audio is better in post than some "great" audio mixed with "terrible" audio.

My first "pro" gig in this biz was as boom operator, recruited from the PA's on a "B" 16mm movie. It was much more challenging than I expected, and I was very lucky to have a great audio guy coaching me from the mixer and nagra with an audio return to my headphones. Getting as close to the audio source as the camera allows (including your shadow...) is only part of it. The angle that the mic has to a mouth changes the character of the sound. Learning the dialogue cues with the actors and getting subtle transitions between characters can be a challenge - especially if audio isn't given proper priority...

Good luck Suresh!

Thanks a lot for your help guys.
Unfortunately, I've already invested in my mic and can't change for a while. I understand the 416 is professional and the ME66 is usually used for documentaries and stuff.
Any advice on how to make the best use of the me66 for dialog?

Sareesh, if you look on the panel behind the flip out LCD you will see the "audio select" switches for each channel. Put "Ch1" to Auto, "Ch2" to Manual. You'll need to run Ch 1 - Ch 1 and Ch 2 - Ch 2 on the audio select switches by the XLR input.. And I suggest you go into the menu and set the Audio Level indicators to "on", so that you can see what both channels are doing as you record.

I'll be doing this. Thanks! Any advice on the MIC REF selection in the menu (50 or 60dB)? I have no clue what that's for. Thanks again...I really appreciate it.

A lot of good advice here. Thanks Jim for the equipment upgrade list, since I'm in the market for better mics myself.

As everyone seems to realize, there are different strategies for different scenarios and budgets. There's no doubt that if my camera is on the battlefield, that it's going to be in auto. Now whether I stay with the camera is another story...

Recording a feature is not a good situation to be doing run and gun audio (the "Dogme 95" approach was criticized even back then...).

Here's a hybrid approach to what I read above that I use on certain occasions that I think will be useful in Saresh's circumstance assuming no extra budget can be allocated. When there is just one good audio source, put it on both channels. If there are real dynamics in audio, and you are heeavily involved in several other tasks, set one level conservatively and the other in auto (as Robert A. suggests). However, if there is reasonable control of the situation, like most dialogue (hopefully you aren't directing as well...), then I find a good approach is to set the level accurately as possible on channel 1, then lower the level of the same signal on channel 2 (about 6db less, depending on the scene). This way, you have a good clean primary source, but if levels do go higher than expected (actors get excited or action audio), there is a clean section to edit in during post. Auto could have level sweeps or other compression artifacts from a sudden loud section that this extra conservative. Same signal, at different manual level settings.

Setting the level manual level "accurately". Like setting exposure, this is both simple in concept, and sometimes challenging in execution. There is one appropriate fixed setting for a scene, assuming of course that a professional isn't riding the inputs with good meters and hi-end equipment. You can arrive at this several ways, but usually the focus is on avoiding the worst scenario - in this case, that is distortion from too high a level. If you can reproduce the audio and mic position properly for the loudest part of that scene (assuming we set levels for every scene!), then the loudest sound in a dynamic scene should be approximately halfway between the dot for reference level (-20db) and the last dot (0db = distortion). If the scene has dynamic loud sections, you can push this a bit higher (never all the way to the end!), if it has quiet dialogue throughout, it should hover around the reference dot.

A quick rant about reference level. It's really only meaningful to set your camera controls to reference tone when a monitored and properly set mixer is being used. If mics are connected directly to the camera, you have to find the range by monitoring the scene audio levels. The loudness of the scene, microphone used, proximity to audio source are all important factors.

Sorry Joseph, but I wouldn't think a level adjustment wheel position is helpful here, beyond being a starting point for adjustment.

A lot of low-budget films make the mistake of compromising on audio, but it's very important for the end audience. We can visually adjust to the picture being obscured at times, but if dialogue can't be comprehended - it's a big problem.

I've had hours in the edit room trying to make the best of problem audio, and that experience is highly recommended for getting priorities right in future productions (hehe!). Room ambience or reverb is very easy to add to flat audio, and virtually impossible to remove after the fact. One thing you can do on set is hanging sound blankets just out of camera range or over hard flat surfaces like windows- it's cheap and helps a lot in many situations - both for reflection (reverb) and outside noise interference (also easy to add traffic and noise afterwards!).

For low budget filmmaking, having and deploying a wired or wireless lavaliere or 2 is very useful. On a proper budgeted film set, you'd use them much less, but the compromises of a mediocre shotgun mic with a single inexperienced boom operator are too much in some scenarios. The lavalier will have far less room ambience and better isolation from surroundings in most settings, and often this is more important than the more natural sound characteristics of a shotgun. Sometimes you can "plant" a hidden lav in a scene. Hiding one on a person takes some practice, but when the shot goes wide, and the boom is distant.... Practicality before subtlety when on a budget. All clean useable audio is better in post than some "great" audio mixed with "terrible" audio.

My first "pro" gig in this biz was as boom operator, recruited from the PA's on a "B" 16mm movie. It was much more challenging than I expected, and I was very lucky to have a great audio guy coaching me from the mixer and nagra with an audio return to my headphones. Getting as close to the audio source as the camera allows (including your shadow...) is only part of it. The angle that the mic has to a mouth changes the character of the sound. Learning the dialogue cues with the actors and getting subtle transitions between characters can be a challenge - especially if audio isn't given proper priority...

Good luck Suresh!

Thanks a lot Sean! It really means a lot when someone takes the time to help, so I appreciate it.

What you suggest in the hybrid scenario is exactly what I'm planning to do. I'll just have to practice hard with each location and hope for the best. I've learned the hard way about the impossibility of removing room reverb. What I did was ADR (because the location dialog had too much traffic noise) in a small enclosed room. Talk about jumping out of the frying pan into the fire!

And Amen to your say that it's better to get one type of usable audio than good and bad mixed together. That's another well I jumped into recently, and I'm still hurting from the fall.

I'll take your advice about sound blankets...but I can't afford any professional stuff. Do you have any suggestions of materials that can be used on walls, floors, etc to take out reverb? Also, if I absolutely have to do ADR, for whatever reason, how should I go about it? Can I somehow record everything indoors (both ext and int dialog) avoiding the echo/reverb and then mix it convincingly? I'm asking this because lav mics are out of my budget for now.

Thank you once again for your help!

"Unfortunately, I've already invested in my mic and can't change for a while. I understand the 416 is professional and the ME66 is usually used for documentaries and stuff.
Any advice on how to make the best use of the me66 for dialog?"

The Rode NTG-1 is inexpensive (300AUD) and is a noticeably better microphone than the ME66. Not harsh in the least. Very quiet.

The one thing the ME66 is good at is really digging the sound out of the surroundings.

Rob

The Rode NTG-1 is inexpensive (300AUD) and is a noticeably better microphone than the ME66. Not harsh in the least. Very quiet.
Rob

Agree totally. I often shoot live bands at weddings close up and can vouch that the NTG-1 also seems to handle high SPL levels very well (short of placing an SM57 in the mic holder) and because it is a hyper cardiod pattern it rejects slapback echo from surrounding walls giving clean undistorted sound.

JT

I'll take your advice about sound blankets...but I can't afford any professional stuff. Do you have any suggestions of materials that can be used on walls, floors, etc to take out reverb? Also, if I absolutely have to do ADR, for whatever reason, how should I go about it? Can I somehow record everything indoors (both ext and int dialog) avoiding the echo/reverb and then mix it convincingly? I'm asking this because lav mics are out of my budget for now.

Thank you once again for your help!

Use mover's blankets.

...Any advice on how to make the best use of the me66 for dialog?

For an Indie film production...you should always do a take of the scene that allows you to get the mic really close...about 12 inches from the subject. You will get better low-frequency response (proximity effect) and more to work w/ in post production. In post production, you need to roll-off some of that high frequency harshness that comes w/ that mic.

I'm not sure what your rental situation is...but, sometimes renting quality sound gear is the best option. Once you use a better mic, you will find that it able to save you time in post production and give you a dramatically better sound.

I used the ME66 for years and graduated to a Schoeps CMIT5u...and the difference is quality is dramatic.

You really need to be set up to go through a mixer (better preamps/ limiters) and have the ability to monitor the recorded signal that's going to tape.

HDV audio is already a slight set back in that it uses MPEG1 Audio Layer II.

Brian's got that one right. Moving blankets are the same thing. On film sets they often hang them on grip stands, but you'll have to improvise. They can make a huge difference over windows.

I realize you have no budget, but I'd find a way to beg, borrow or steal, and get a lavaliere mic in there. use tape and elastic straps instead of the clip, if it's wired (spend $100). run the XLR down a leg, and some walking is still possible. But a wireless sennheiser ($500 ) will save you over and over.
You do have to watch out for clothing rubbing and hits, and the sound isn't as natural, But you'll save hours, both on set and in post.

For ADR, soundtrack in FCP studio 2 is pretty well setup for this. In FCP 1 you can go into the system just using the voiceover tool. You'll need at least an audio to USB box. Recording to tape and capturing it is a real drag, but there is that budget issue. IF you are mixing with on-set audio, use the same mic, record indoors, but make it as dead in ambience as possible. Blankets - even draping one blanket entirely over the talent. Watch for computer noise, especially if you have external drives. Looking at the image works for some people, others do better just repeating the phrasing after playback. It's an acquired skill.
Take the flat audio, and easily add appropriate reverb ambience with soundtrack presets. Mix in just the right amount of room tone audio form your locations. Definitely record the room tone everywhere if you suspect post audio treatment. 30 secs without dialogue collecting the background audio of that set. You can also use background audio from SFX packages (Soundtrack has some in it's library).

But I would dig deeper in my pockets to avoid ADR as much as possible.
But I understand your situation - it's not audio quality, as much as avoiding really problematic audio, like background noise.

Thank you everyone for your help and support.
I have finally finished shooting and am into post production - now I'll know how well the sound recording went!
Thanks again!

Only last week I shot a live band on stage that were quite loud and to my surprise I got no hard clipping with the ALC on
JT


James, I wonder if you could tell more about shooting live bands with mics. Up to now I've just connected to the console . But I am prepping for a feature music docu and have taken my 251 to several rock and electro concerts for casting the musicians and testing some image stuff.

Audio played no role but I was still vy irked with the lousy sound from the mics.

What settings & tricks do you recommend for indoors rock concerts ?

I have excerpted some concerts alone, some with my DP, some with my son holding the boom and the preamp ( the Sonosax which clips neatly on the boom ). The mics I have are Sennheiser MKH 60 shotgun and MKH 20 omni. I've usually just used the MKH 60 in a suspension on the cam, or with a boomperson the 60 on the boom and the 20 on the cam. I can't take much equipment or crew to these prepping venues.

IMHO: Boom mics are NOT the way to sample sound at a live music venue, at least not for front-of-house. I use my medium diaphragm condenser on a stand for room sound and try to get a board feed if I can.