When you buy a new EX1 here in Austria you get 2 years of "Prime Support" with your purchase from Sony.
My camera still has the backfocus problem although it was upgraded to the new firmware version. The camera was sent in 2 times so far and spent 5 weeks at the repair shop so far, and the issue was not fixed at all. A Sony sales representative wanted to exchange my camera last week only to find out that the camera has the same issue...
I got a loaner camera from prime support 5 weeks ago - it also has the backfocus issue as well, but at least it works with ND off which my "repaired" camera doesn´t. When I asked for another loaner camera they just said that they do not have any left.
Sony says they do not know how to repair my camera and that they do not have any replacement cameras or working loaner cameras they can give me.
The Prime Support contract clearly says that they have to provide me with a working loaner camera.
Today Prime Support called me and they demanded their loaner camera back!!!
I said "no way" as I would not have any usable camera then. The lady got very unfriendly then and threatened me, that they would send me a bill for the loaner camera, if I refused to turn it back!!! Is that the customer support I have to expect as a professional customer?? They say they cant repair mine and do not offer any solution for me! If this situation is not resolved soon I will call a lawyer - this really can´t be true! This is the worst customer service I ever experienced. The sales representative from Sony Austria tries to resolve this issue now - he also has my camera at the moment and handed it over to his technicians.

Sorry for venting!
Gerald

Hi Gerald,

First off, you should expect and get a good camera. And Sony (and especially your reseller) are responsible for provideing you with one.

However if I read your message correctly, your own cam is back from "repair" and you still have the "loaner cam". This is where things go bad, as Sony expects you to return the loaner after your own cam is returned, or they'll invoice you (for list!).

You cannot hold the loaner "hostage" but you could try to convince them to pickup your cam again for repair and to keep the loaner. That is, if you feel they'll be able to fix it...

Maybe the best thing is to speak to a Sony regional manager (through your reseller) and work out a solution. I would go for a replacement.

If you were a consumer (not a business) you could actually return it to the reseller for replacement under European legislation. Unfortunately (well in this case anyway) this is not the case for business-to-business sales.

If you feel no amicable solution is possible you could go the legal route and start with a "notice of default" (Inverzugsetzung). Sometime this alone is enough to get the focus back on your problem. Primarily your reseller is responsible for providing you with a working solution.

Hope this helps.

George/

P.S. Nice Cadillacs!

George,
thanks for your tips!
You are right I cant hold the camera hostage.
The Prime Support contract says that you can keep the loaner camera until you are fully satisfied with the repair and you have up to five days to test the repaired camera after it was returned from repair. My camera is now at Sony in Vienna for evaluation of the problem, so I don´t have it here. If I send the loaner back I would not have any camera at all!
They also said that they do not know how to fix my camera and a solution could take a while. I can´t afford not to have a camera at all as the next rental house is too far away and I have to earn some money.

cu,
Gerald

PS: thanks for the props on my cars

Gerald,

You are right 110% and I can relate to your problem since I had both my EX1s send to the Netherlands for backfocus/vignetting adjustment. I have also talked to Nina and Annie only to realize how unprofessional PRIMESUPPORT is as well. Lots of indications point to this direction.

1. When I called them (in UK) there was a party going on in the background and they had to put me on hold because they couldn't hear what I was telling them. What kind of "local store" is this?
2. A week after I sent the cameras and there was no confirmation or receiving them. I had to email them twice in order to find out that the cameras had arrived in Holland.
3. What kind of attitude is this, "we don't know what is wrong with your camera?" Well my dear friends at SONY you better find out soon cause hell is breaking lose soon. You are the professional division and answers like this are unacceptable. We don't play with those cameras. We make a living.
4. After the supposed repair of the camera don't they check it out to find if the problem was corrected? It's a five minute procedure. Do they prefer to deal with resending empty boxes and cause anguish to their clients instead.

Unacceptable, period.
I am venting and imagine I haven't gotten my cameras back yet (fixed or not fixed it doesn't matter)

Gearld keep us posted. Who knows, we might have to take a coordinated action.

Just a reminder to please keep these proceedings tactful and professional please. If all you want to do is "vent," start your own blog and vent. That's not what this site is for. Please be very careful and civil in your choice of words here. Thanks in advance,

Chris,
I basically fully agree with you. I think that this information can be very helpful for other EX1 owners though. This way they can get some info on what they can expect from the companies customer support should they run into problems.

As long as it's information, and not frustrated ranting. There is a right way (that is, a polite and reserved way) to discuss these matters and get them resolved. Since this site embodies my own professional reputation, I am very particular about the way things are said here. I have already edited this thread's title and have withdrawn a couple of unhelpful comments. And rest assured that I will not hesitate to close this thread or remove it entirely if the conduct within it goes sour.

Proceed with the utmost caution.

Unfortunately this is not an isolated incident.
There is a pattern that has to be dealt with in proper manner.

Is Prime Support something extra that you've paid for. Is there an equivalent version for US support?

Prime support is included whenever you buy an EX1 here in Europe. You buy it automatically with the camera.

I understand Gerald's frustration, but I do agree with Chris. This type of thread can really get out of control and turns it into something know one wants to be involved in.

Sony has not offically commented on the back focus issue or firmware upgrade. My guess is they are waiting until they have a better understanding on how they plan on dealing with this issue and rolling it out to the field.

Unfortunately there is no equivalent version for US support in Europe - for European users prime support is a must.

Nonetheless we have a professional camera that since its debut in over 4 months exhibits problems in many production units. Every month we realize, as we go on using the camera, new problems. Thing is that no one knows what lies ahead and probably that's why people exhibit their loss in faith. I know that SONY like many of us EX1 owners isn't happy with the situation.
Fact remains that everybody hopes that answers will come up shortly.

Nonetheless we have a professional camera that since its debut in over 4 months exhibits problems in many production units.
Is this only a very small fraction/percentage of production units showing these problems or is it more like one cam out of three?

Nobody except SONY (and this could take some time) is able to give a percentage. I could bet though that there are a lot of folks that haven't realized that their cameras might exhibit those problems. I know from myself. I had to conduct the testing in order to find out what was wrong. For a whole month I was shooting only interviews (with fixed focal length) so I could mot realize the backfocus problem. I know that when I would have to shoot outside it would be a matter of a few shoots until I realized that something is not right. Another thing is that I was under the impression that fixed (not removable) lenses do not exhibit backfocus problems. My bad.

Another thing is that I was under the impression that fixed (not removable) lenses do not exhibit backfocus problems.
That's what I've been thinking, too. Can anyone explain (technically) why backfocus problems can happen with not removable lenses as well?

Another thing is that I was under the impression that fixed (not removable) lenses do not exhibit backfocus problems. My bad.

I guess this would depend on the design of the lens. Most consumer/prosumer lenses are software controlled varifocal zooms, as against the traditional design zooms found on the larger ENG cameras and the JVC HDV cameras. However, there's no reason why one of these traditional designs couldn't be used as a fixed lens, just as they have been used in fixed lens 8mm and some 16mm film cameras.

I've noticed that the focus ring is doing something using motors even though it's in full manual mode. If you put your ear against the camera and focus you can hear some kind of electronically controlled activity as you move the ring.

Is it really physically linked or just a very fast servo assist?

Paul.

I also think it's a bit unprofessional of the Sony Prime support to say "We don't know what's wrong with your camera, we don't know how to solve it" ... I mean, they are the company that made the product ...

It would also be reassuring (or not?) to know a guess of a percentage of affected camera's.

Sony Prime support... they are the company that made the productSorry but that is incorrect. Sony Prime Support did not manufacture the camera. Keep in mind that Sony is a very large corporation with many separate divisions which operate entirely independent from one another. No doubt there is heavy dialog going on right now between SPS and the factory in Atsugi. There is nothing "unprofessional" about that statement, and notice how they are not denying the existence of the problem.

Let's keep it fair and balanced folks... I'm not going to tolerate any more "unprofessional" comments as they do not move this conversation forward in the slightest.

Sorry to hear about your problem Gerald. I have a problem with my zoom setting at the lowest speed where it doesnt zoom in smoothly. Another user who had this same problem had his EX1 replaced with a working one due to this same issue but mine was not. The whole story is not in this comment but overall it made me feel a bit ackward and uncertain about the prime support as well.

I actually work for a camera company too. Our parent company is in Japan (as expected ;) )

At times we have issues that can not be addressed at a local level. We clearly state to our customers that we are working with our "corporate company" to come up with a solution.

I can't imagine they said they could not fix it without mentioning this issue is being esculated to their corporate company and are waiting for a response.

Sony is a large company. I'm sure they are working on a solution. I've already read someone had their camera repaired for BF with v1.05_0405 software.

OTOH, I thought I read that this upgrade was not successful for another user.

It would also be reassuring (or not?) to know a guess of a percentage of affected camera's.
Yes, and that's why I am getting more an more unsure to buy the cam now (what I had planned) or wait. I will call European Prime support in the UK today and politely ask for a guess of the percentage of affected camera's.

Hi Michael, I'm also in exactly the same situation. Could you let it know on these boards if they gave you any confirmation? Thanks,

Just asked regular Sony support in Cologne for the phone number of Prime support - they seem to be willing but were unable to find it. Maybe a European EX1-user on this board can help me out with the Prime support phone number? I'll post the results of the inquiry here.

You could try Sony professional service and support in the UK on +44 1256 828828 or tsg.helpdesk@eu.sony.com

Cheers, Nick

Sony professional service and support in the UK - very cooperative, by the way - gave my the Prime Support number for European customers:

0800 - 182 8334

...

There is no technican available at the moment - I'll try it again in the late afternoon.

...

I finally reached a UK-based Prime support technician and here's what he said:

(1) No guess about percentage of defective EX1 units sold (My guessing from his reaction: a very significant percentage)
(2) With the new firmware upgrade the backfocus problem should (!) be finally eliminated. (I asked if he knows of units which still show backfocus problems even after the upgrade, which he denied.)
(3) Potential buyers should ask whether the new firmware has already been installed since firmware upgrade requires a Sony technician.

Less information than I hoped for, but maybe better than nothing.

All leading to the question:
Are there users out there still having backfocus problems AFTER the firmware upgrade?

Hi Michael,

thanks for the information!

Today I fixed the backfocus problem for myself, just before I wanted to return my EX1 for another exchange.
I did the FB-adjustment procedure once again - but this time I used 12 backfocus charts side by side (actually 4 columns and 3 rows), which I attached to a white wall of my house.
I did the procedure for each ND - setting separately. Looks like only 1 backfocus chart was not enough to fix my problem. The camera was 3m away from the charts - aperture of course wide open.

Maybe this trick will work for others as well.
The sad thing is that Sony could not fix it in 3 repair attempts.
I hope it will stay like this now.

My camera has the new FW 1.05.

Maybe this technique will help others as well.

regards,
Gerald

Gratulations, good to hear, Gerald!
When did you buy your cam and what is your serial No.?
Thanks in advance.

Michael,
FW 1.05 is the newest version of the firmware. Prime Support updated it at their last repair attempt, but it did not fix the camera then. (It had FW1.03 when I bought it.)
I bought my camera 2 months ago - serial#401780
I guess their problem at the repair attempts is a not ideal setup for the FB adjustment, or maybe they did it for one ND setting only.
But thats just speculation... I´m still hearing from other EX1 owners that they got their cameras back without successful repairs as well, although their FW was also updated.

cu,
Gerald
(finally a happy EX-1 owner)

This is really good news!

You would think that the repair center would have the correct procedure.

I'm wondering if version 1.03 would of worked if you had tried?

Which brings up the question, what does v1.05 offer?

As the loaner camera with FW1.03 was not picked up yet - I will unbox it again and try the same setup - will let you know in about an hour.

Thank you.
I have not looked, but I'm betting that's my version.

That was an easy test and it went pretty quickly.
Same setup and procedure, but this time with the loaner camera and FW1.03.
Fixed! Works with all ND settings. So I do not know what they changed for FW1.05.
I guess Prime Support will now wonder that I send back a fully working loaner camera, because I always complained about it and wanted another one...

So I guess the new FW 1.05 is not necessary to fix the backfocus issue - but it might have worked for this camera only...

If I´ve came up with this solution earlier I could have saved me a lot of trouble and grief...

cu,
Gerald

Today I fixed the backfocus problem for myself, just before I wanted to return my EX1 for another exchange.
I did the FB-adjustment procedure once again - but this time I used 12 backfocus charts side by side (actually 4 columns and 3 rows), which I attached to a white wall of my house.

Congrats, Gerald - very encouraging news indeed!

May I know how big the charts you've used are? A4?

Piotr,
yes A4 - if you have a larger printer it would not hurt too.
I´m sure it will work with less than 12 charts as well, but 1 just is not enough.

regards,
Gerald

Gerald, are you sure that backfocus stays fixed after changing ND-filter setting? Wasn't there a user who said this could cause the backfocus to shift again?

Michael,
so far it works - I switched between the settings multiple times.
I cant guarantee it will work forever - maybe tomorrow it will be another story again...
But during my test today I did a lot of switching between the filter settings and it did not change anything.
I hope it will stay like this.

regards,
Gerald

Thanks Gerald, good to hear that.

Gerald, this is GREAT NEWS, but at the same time puzzling.

Why does Adam Wilts' EX1 camera only allow correct back focus on only one ND setting at a given time, not on each?

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/Awilt/story/ex1_misfocusing_explained/P0/

Gerald, this is GREAT NEWS, but at the same time puzzling.

Why does Adam Wilts' EX1 camera only allow correct back focus on only one ND setting at a given time, not on each?

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/Awilt/story/ex1_misfocusing_explained/P0/

yeah I read this article a couple of days ago - and I do not have an answer for this...

Maybe something is unique about Adams's camera.

I HIGHLY respect Adam. He's ideas and input has been very valuable for myself and many others!

Maybe something is unique about Adams's camera.

I HIGHLY respect Adam. He's ideas and input has been very valuable for myself and many others!

I think we all respect Adam very much! His articles always offer an enormous source of information. Maybe his camera really is different. They seem to have their own will ;-)

I turned Adam on to the problem actually but I've never tried Gerald's inventive solution.
Gerald are you looking at the picks on a large monitor to be sure its absolutely fixed? I find its easy to miss and the clincher is usually to engage the ND, look at distant objects ( trees are good) with wide open fstop and then turn the focus ring from infinity down to 3'. If it gets sharper toward 3' you are still screwed.

Were the 12 focus charts just ordinary starburst charts the size of letter paper? If this works you should get a MacArthur award!

My buddy has one that's out , so I will email him this. I hope it works.

BTW the guys at Sony in San jose were incredibly nice to deal with.

Lenny Levy

Leonard,
the charts were ordinary starburst charts (Siemens Star). I used this one: http://www.striemerfilm.com/archiv/page31/files/Siemensstern.pdf and printed it to plain paper - I wanted to avoid any glossy surfaces.
I checked everything on a full HD monitor and also on my 23" cinema display in full 1920x1080 resolution. I sat only inches in front of it to make sure I do not miss anything. Also turned the focus back to 0.8 meters as this was the method I originally found out that I have a problem. Now it gets out of focus when I turn the focus to the 0.8 meter stop, which is another clear indication that it works now. I really am very very picky when testing the backfocus in the meantime - so believe me - it really fixed my camera. I have posted some before and after images on another thread here - so you can check it out:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=108433&page=46
There is also a split screen image showing all 3 ND settings side by side. Check it out!

all the best,
Gerald

Gerald, it's quite apparent that focus was fixed on your camera, and your loaner.

Thanks for providing this information.

Now that you had success doing this on software versions 1.03 and 1.05, it makes me wonder what software 1.05 offers?

Sony should provide a CSF (Control Summary Form) to their customers.
The Japanese based camera company I work for provides this information.

In the past, I'm not sure why others did not have any success with this adjustment. Although I can speculate:

Since the EX1 uses an auto calibration, the setup conditions must be correct.
On my JVC HD100, when performing a BF adjustment manually and when viewing the target wide, you are able to make a correct focus judgement on your target regardless of the surroundings.

Since the EX1 is using an auto BF correction, I imagine it's important to not have anything in the field of view from the tele end to full wide other than the focus targets. It's relying on the target signal peak detection from full zoom to full wide and makes it's back focus correction to ensure the focal image plane does not fall off of the sensor. Having other objects in the field of view when going wide could confuse the adjustment and cause a bad BF correction.

I was so pleased with the guys at Sony last week, but if Gerald's method works on my buddy's camera I'm going to be left with nothing but irritation at the entire company's incompetence.

Part of me hopes it doesn't work just to feel like I didn't waste my time packing & shipping my camera away for a week. At least they got the shipping.

Lenny

I know you are frustrated, but DVINFO won't tolerate derogatory remarks towards companies or individuals. We should be applauding Gerald for his 'thinking outside the box' which led him to success.

Keep that in mind for future postings.

-gb-

Greg, not to pick a fight, and I respect the policy of DVinfo, but don't you think it's a bit abnormal that a user can fix a problem that wasn't fixed after he sent it to the manufacturer, who had the job to get it fixed and couldn't...?

Isn't it normal and legitimate that we, as customers, complain about that?
Or is it that the case of Gerald could be isolated and we shouldn't say anything about Sony because we don't know the details? (Although there have been more reports of user getting their camera's back after service, without it being fixed)
Or because DVinfo thinks this isn't productive?

BTW: I'm just curious, not trying to pick a fight or stirr things up. It's a fine line, and I'm just interested in where to draw it exactly. For me and other users in the future.