I've heard from very professional people that I should return the HD10 because of the ghsoting image. Still others seem to like it.

I figured out if you set the shutter to 1/60 and the F-stop to whatever is right, then hit the exposure wheel/button and adjust that (if needed), then hold it down to lock.

At first, I hit the S/A button while it's locked and the shutter/aperature was moving (the "L" disappeared after 5 seconds), which led me to assume it really WASN'T locking...

So I tried it all again and locked it and DID NOT hit the S/A button. I panned and tilted the camera all over the place, light, dark, normal, etc. The image didn't change.

So, I concluded that hitting the S/A button unlocks the exposure (even if the "L" is on screen for another 5 seconds or so).

All right, now that I figured that out, what in the world is up with the ghosting? I still haven't done any real tests (and my camera was automatically going to 1/30), but that's the final thing making me want to indeed get rid of this camera.

Here's my problem: I can only buy one camera which I will use for 3 years or so, and I want the best quality (HD). If I buy, say, a DVX100, then I'm stuck with it for three years (unless I start making serious cash in life, which I'm not totally counting on).

If anyone can help, please let me know! Ghost effects, etc.

heath

heath,

do what you want. you cant really ask a question of value to so many willing to voice an opinion when they have never seen the camera.

you've had the camera for a while so ask yourself, do you find the image acceptable for your needs?

we've determined that the double image illusion may be a playback issue and not in the source file (isn't viewable in a frame by frame insteption of the footage). so on future playback devices, the flickering may not be as evident. but this very well might not be the case either.

anyways, ask yourself this. would you be more happy with the DVX100's DV picture for the next three years, when you've already tasted what HD can do?

as you already have an XL1, which many here pine for, maybe you should just wait a couple years for a second generation HD device, when all of these questions we are having are sorted out.

in the meantime, i'll be enjoying my HD1 and archiving alot of footage in HDV which would have been only DV otherwise.

it's your choice, not anyone else's to make.

You're right, Michael...I don't have the XL-1 anymore (sold it to help buy the HD10). I think I'm gonna keep it...Upon a frame-by-frame look, you're right, it isn't the camera. Might actually BE our eyes.

Thanks,

heath

:::::clapping for Heath, assuming this is the last time he'll decide to keep the camera:::: Congratulations!

If you change your mind, however, I might be willing to buy it. If not, where can you buy the HD10? I only see HD1s on all the websites....

- Marla

marla,
b&h sells the hd10u.

bhphoto.com




cbianco

<<<-- Originally posted by Marla Mathias : :::::clapping for Heath, assuming this is the last time he'll decide to keep the camera:::: Congratulations!

If you change your mind, however, I might be willing to buy it. If not, where can you buy the HD10? I only see HD1s on all the websites....

- Marla -->>>

I think this will be the last time I decide...

Nuts, I just found out my friend decided NOT to call me to shoot on Lollapalooza because of the HD10...

That's a lot of money and contacts down the drain. STUPID CAMERA!

Okay, it ain't the camera really, my friend had NO idea it could should DV...Also, we was worried I'd be fired from my steady gig for a 6 week job. (Of course in that six weeks, I'd make as much as I do in 5 months...stupid TV news...)

Well, time to go be depressed for a while.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : You're right, Michael...I don't have the XL-1 anymore (sold it to help buy the HD10). I think I'm gonna keep it...Upon a frame-by-frame look, you're right, it isn't the camera. Might actually BE our eyes.

Thanks,

heath -->>>

I think people who are seeing the ghosting must be getting it from software players or other intermediate sources. Running the HD1 I demoed out to the 720p native Samsung, there was no ghosting. Some strobing when playing with different shutter speeds, but 1/30 and 1/60 looked good. I did need a 30p (and hopefully 24p) capable camcorder with an available underwater housing and other options and so I bought the DVX100 and haven't regretted it. As hashed over in a few other threads, it still produces better color and has greater control than the HD1/10 units. But there's no denying the HD1/10's resolution and the video can be awesome if you can keep the unit under control in your shooting conditions.

During my demo, I still had lots of artifacting wth heavy motion scenes and a few other motion issues on contrast areas. But it's hard to complain about such things from a $3K camcorder when I see the exact same artifacting on occasion from broadcast HD. In my original review, I slammed the camera's design and manual control. I still stand by that assessment. But I also said that I was able to get a few clips that looked as good as broadcast HD and that's true as well. I spent less than 10 hours actually playing with the camera and was already getting some pretty impressive results from it.

I'm still highly conflicted about this camera... And while I do want an HD capable unit now, I don't need one. I'm still going to hold off and see what Sony, Canon and Panasonic come up with. I bet that by this time next year, JVC will have the HD2 and the others will have an offering as well.

On the other hand, I'm still tempted to buy an HD10 just for fun... And then I realize that $3K camcorders don't fit well into the "fun" budget category, at least not for me.

"I'm still highly conflicted about this camera... And while I do want an HD capable unit now, I don't need one."

heh, i don't think anyone here that owns the jvc actually really NEEDS it. with such new technology, rarely are there made to order applications for products like the jvc, that require you to have one.

what it does give you is the opportunity to find and craft uses for it.

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Hyun : "I'm still highly conflicted about this camera... And while I do want an HD capable unit now, I don't need one."

heh, i don't think anyone here that owns the jvc actually really NEEDS it. with such new technology, rarely are there made to order applications for products like the jvc, that require you to have one.

what it does give you is the opportunity to find and craft uses for it. -->>>

I have some uses for it, just need to figure out the editing on FCP part of it.

heath

sry heath,

i should probably restate my position.

of course we all have uses for it. and professionals who bought the unit already have ideas on how they might profit from the relationship.

i was merely trying to state that it is us who bought the JVC, that have the opportunity to develop new ways to utilize the technology- hopefully in a manner in which people will realize that they in fact do NEED HDV to stay competititve in the future.

is DV dead yet? no, but definitely on its last legs. it's not a matter of if, but when.

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Hyun : is DV dead yet? no, but definitely on its last legs. it's not a matter of if, but when. -->>>

Much like Hi-8 and most analog. (Though I work for a lot of companies that still use BetaSP.)

heath

ps-Wish I got that Lollapalooza job...oh, well...Radiohead, anyone?

<<<-- I think people who are seeing the ghosting must be getting it from software players or other intermediate sources. -->>>

Sorry, but the double image is very clear on the $4000 720p60 monitor JVC loaned me. You'll see it on any rapidly moving subject.

The reason you think its not there at 1/30th is a moving object is so blurred the double image appears as one wide object.

What you call "strobing" at higher shutter-speeds IS the double image becoming more and more distinct.

The place you won't see it is on computer playback because it is not recorded.

Steve, there is not "real" double image just as there is no spoon. :) It is in you head (and others.) Yes 30p is slower than what the human eye expects for smooth motion. 24p is 20% worse than 30p, so it suffers from motion aliasing (more accurate term than strobing or double image). The reason you often don't notice this in film (24p) is that the shots are taken with this knownledge in mind. This motion aliasing is still clear in all but the slowest film pans. You might not like the 30p look for everyday shooting, but I believe it is not the fault of any JVC component or display device. If you shoot like you are shooting film, everything looks great. I suggest you burrow a 24p camera to observe the same (if not worse) motion aliasing.

<<<-- Originally posted by David Newman : Steve, there is not "real" double image just as there is no spoon. :) It is in you head (and others.) Yes 30p is slower than what the human eye expects for smooth motion. 24p is 20% worse than 30p, so it suffers from motion aliasing (more accurate term than strobing or double image). The reason you often don't notice this in film (24p) is that the shots are taken with this knownledge in mind. This motion aliasing is still clear in all but the slowest film pans. You might not like the 30p look for everyday shooting, but I believe it is not the fault of any JVC component or display device. If you shoot like you are shooting film, everything looks great. I suggest you burrow a 24p camera to observe the same (if not worse) motion aliasing. -->>>

This may sound like BS, but sometimes, when I'm watching a movie in a theatre, I start noticing something I can only describe as "waves" in the images. I think I have problems with it...

heath

David==>"so it suffers from motion aliasing (more accurate term than strobing or double image)."

*****APPLAUSE*****

thanks for this info. defining and catagorizing the 30p phenomenon is exactly what we needed.

thanks.

I took another look at the footage with my friends walking around. Not too bad, but I need to do more tests.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by David Newman : Steve, there is not "real" double image just as there is no spoon. :) It is in your head (and others.) Yes 30p is slower than what the human eye expects for smooth motion. 24p is 20% worse than 30p, so it suffers from motion aliasing (more accurate term than strobing or double image). The reason you often don't notice this in film (24p) is that the shots are taken with this knownledge in mind. -->>>

This is what I wrote to JVC for their comment:

"Because our visual system integrates images together into one if they appear within a space of about 1/30th second (which is why interlace works) then -- displaying at 60fps -- we will SEE 2 images when objects are being displaced spatially because they are moving."

Seems like we are saying the same thing.

But, here's what bothers me. You say we can see this with film if motion isn't dealt with. I've watched a lot film -- and shot film too without worrying about motion. (Think of NFL highlights as material that violates shooting rules!) I've never seen what I see with the HD10.

Another issue. Shooting at 1/30th S which is the JVC recommendation for reducing the problem-- is equivilent to shooting film with a 360 degree shutter which can't be done.

I also know several cinematographers who dispute the common asseration that the "strobe look" of low frame-rate video looks like the motion aliasing of film.

And that's my concern. While I do think it is in our eyes, my eyes don't see what I see in Frame-mode or 710p30 -- on a movie screen.

Steve,
Given that we can prove there is nothing wrong within each frame, and film is effectively doing the same thing at a slower frame rate (180 degree shutter or the magical JVC 360 degree -- you choose .) The only place to be pointing fingers at is the human visual system. If you shot the same scene at 30p with film and with the HD10, the motion aliasing would be identical. Note: 30p film is not unheard of as the NBC show "Friends" is shot at 30p rather than 24p or 60i. This is not to say there aren't huge other differences, 30p is just not one of them.

One possibility is as the gamma curves of the JVC camera matches that of video, so your brian is trained to expecting video frame rates. Like DV projects transfer to 35mm -- the motion is all wrong (but for other reasons.) Whereas slower film sources we forgive its motion aliasing, as the lighting/gamma is sooo much better. Just an idea.

Anyway I think the 30p is beautiful, and it can produce stunning outputs. I have been shooting 30p since 1997.

<<<-- Originally posted by David Newman : Steve,
One possibility is as the gamma curves of the JVC camera matches that of video, so your brian is trained to expecting video frame rates. -->>>

You may have it. It looks like VIDEO not FILM -- so my brain is processing it like it does interlace video.

Today i shot both 1/30th and 1/60th observing the rules of film. Now either my brain is getting used to it -- :) -- or the film rules work! I panned with walkers and as the theory says -- the eye can't see what's happening in the background.

I'm now comfortable that anyone who complains about "strobing" can be helped by shooting differently.

I've been watching on an 8 foot screen, where I also watched 24p from the DVX100. The 24p did look like 16mm film. It amazed me!

This definitely does NOT look like film. It looks like the Grammies shot live on HD. Since I've watched HD for over a decade -- I used to live in Japan -- my brain sees it as HD video. It should be 60 images per second. It's not. But it's not film either.

Thank you for joining in!
Steve

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen :
I've been watching on an 8 foot screen, where I also watched 24p from the DVX100. The 24p did look like 16mm film. It amazed me!

This definitely does NOT look like film. It looks like the Grammies shot live on HD. Since I've watched HD for over a decade -- I used to live in Japan -- my brain sees it as HD video. It should be 60 images per second. It's not. But it's not film either.

Thank you for joining in!
Steve -->>>

I can live with Grammies on HD.

heath

ps-any idea why dumping to tape from FCP to the HD10 (DV) I'm getting sparkles/hits on the image? I posted elsewhere...

I just posted some info on the "double image" effect in this thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11779&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

Jay