Check this out:
http://convergent-design.com/downloads/Flash%20XDR%20Brochure.pdf

That'll be nice if 1080p30 is not important to you because the EX1 live HD-SDI does not support it.

I checked in the manual and don't find anything to confirm HD-SDI doesn't output certain formats. What I found interesting though, is that the SDI output is a "digital signal of the same format, converted from the component signal" - how can it be 10bit, 4:2:2 ?

Anybody?

You guys crack me up... everything you want to know about Flash XDR is right under your noses:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=102312

You guys crack me up... everything you want to know about Flash XDR is right under your noses:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=102312

Chris,

I know all about Flash XDR; I'm on Mike's mailing list and have already paid the deposit for the unit.

Mike Thomann has stated in this thread something new to me about the EX1's HD-SDI output, not about the Flash XDR. Can you enlighten me on which (if any) recording modes are not supported by the EX1's HD-SDI output?

I checked in the manual and don't find anything to confirm HD-SDI doesn't output certain formats. What I found interesting though, is that the SDI output is a "digital signal of the same format, converted from the component signal" - how can it be 10bit, 4:2:2 ?

Component isn't digital.

Bob has beaten me to the punch... component is analog.

Component isn't digital.

Gee.... What's up today?

Who said component is digital? I was citing from the user manual, page 116 (for Europe), which states:

"The SDI OUT connector outputs serial digital signals of the same format converted from the analog component signals fed from the COMPONENT OUT connector"

Both this, and Mike's statement earlier in this thread, that "That'll be nice if 1080p30 is not important to you because the EX1 live HD-SDI does not support it" are something new to me, hence my request for clarifying:

1. If SDI is merely the component _CONVERTED_ into digital, can it be true 10bit 4:2:2 (I'm asking, not denying)?
2. Is there really any limitation on the SDI output _FORMATS_ (e.g. 1080/25p)?

I hope my English was clear enough this time :)

You are perfectly clear, Piotr, at least to me. I'd like to know what you ask, too.

An analogue signal can be converted to as many bits and whatever chroma sampling scheme you so desire. Pretty basic engineering there, really.
So the 10bit digital value will be a 10bit digital value representing what's on the analogue signal, it could go to 14bits or even 16bits if you can afford the ADCs. Wouldn't fit down the HD SDI cable of course.

As to your second point, none that I can read about. The progressive formats are sent as PsF for SD, probably to conform to the SMPTE standard. Nothing I can find supports there being no 30p or 29.976p to be precise.

An analogue signal can be converted to as many bits and whatever chroma sampling scheme you so desire. Pretty basic engineering there, really.
So the 10bit digital value will be a 10bit digital value representing what's on the analogue signal, it could go to 14bits or even 16bits if you can afford the ADCs. Wouldn't fit down the HD SDI cable of course.

As to your second point, none that I can read about. The progressive formats are sent as PsF for SD, probably to conform to the SMPTE standard. Nothing I can find supports there being no 30p or 29.976p to be precise.

Thanks Bob - I also got an e-mail from Convergent Design's Mike Schell, confirming again, that - according to numerous Sony sources - it is true 10bit indeed.

My confusion came probably from the fact that - as everyone tends to consider anything digital "better" - I would think it should be the Component signal being a result of conversion from digital, and not vice versa.

Keep in mind that the image sensor block, whether it is CMOS or CCD, is an *analog* device. The SDI and component video outputs are tapped upstream of the camera's A/D converter. I have difficulty accepting the post about 30p not being supported over SDI... that doesn't make sense to me.

Chris is right, it's supported.



It depends on how you have the camera set:
60 (59.94) NTSC
or
50 (PAL)

Page 117 of the manual

1080/30P (29.97P) is supported in the NTSC mode

Chris the sensor is analog, but the A/D definitely comes before the component and SDI outs. The camera's image processing is digital, therefore the signal must be quantized for the camera's processor to combine the R,G and B signals, apply gamma correction, white balance, etc. and all of those things happen before you see the image on any output, including the EVF/LCD. As far as unsupported formats for SDI, I will be able to run a test on Monday when I'm at work, my SDI monitor at home doesn't have a format indicator. SDI is a VERY versatile format, and can handle just about any format you want to send through it.

Thanks for clarifying that, Sean!

Chris the sensor is analog, but the A/D definitely comes before the component and SDI outs.

That's exactly how I understand it, hence SDI being derived from Component (and not the other way around) rather surprises me.

Regarding the SDI-supported formats, I'd be very grateful if Mike Thomann let us know what he's basing his statement on. So far, he's the only one to say any specific format is NOT output...

Like many product manuals for Japanese products, Sony's tend to suffer from the direct translation problem. I think what they mean is whatever you have the component set to output, the SDI will follow.

-Sean

It's based on posts in this forum and looking into the bandwidth of single channel HD-SDI, and that it can't support 1920x1080p30. For that, dual-link HD-SDI or HDMI was said to be required, which the EX1 has neither. I will locate those sources and if we can determine they are wrong, there's nothing stopping me from buying the EX1.

Shucks! I was really hoping to be wrong on this, look at the "Standards" table...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_Digital_Interface

SMPTE 292M HD-SDI is only 1.485 Gbit/s, and thus only supports up to 720p and 1080i.

Please someone, tell me I'm wrong!!!

I didn't do an extensive test, but when I tried to capture 1080 24p over HD-SDI I had problems. It was an insignificant thing and I was in a hurry, so I just switched to 1080i and it worked.

Not conclusive, but FWIW.

No restriction on 292M at 25p or 30p 4:2:2 :
http://hdmasters2007.com/pdf/Presentations/HDM2007_Wilkinson.pdf

Yep - it says all 1920x1080 formats, except 50/60p. Which means 1080/24/25/30p should be OK - but then, is Wikipedia simply wrong?

Yep - it says all 1920x1080 formats, except 50/60p. Which means 1080/24/25/30p should be OK - but then, is Wikipedia simply wrong?

Don't trust everything you read in Wikis, they're unmoderated posts with little to no peer group review.
In any case if 292M can carry 50i and 60i then it can by definition carry 25p and 30p, it's impossible to engineer it so it cannot. It MIGHT have to go as PsF but so what?

I personally have sent 30p over 292M. 1080p50/60 doesn't really matter because this camera won't shoot it.

Don't trust everything you read in Wikis, they're unmoderated posts with little to no peer group review.
In any case if 292M can carry 50i and 60i then it can by definition carry 25p and 30p, it's impossible to engineer it so it cannot. It MIGHT have to go as PsF but so what?

I guess you're right, Bob - perhaps in the "Standards" table, by 1080p they mean 1080/50/60p, while 1080i also covers 1080/24/25/30PsF.

EDIT: further down the same Wikipedia article, they say:

"The nominal 1.5 Gbit/s interfaces support most high definition formats. Supported formats include 1080i60, 1080i59.94, 1080i50, 1080p30, 1080p29.97, 1080p25, 1080p24, 1080p23.98, 720p60, 720p59.94, and 720p50"

It's based on posts in this forum and looking into the bandwidth of single channel HD-SDI, and that it can't support 1920x1080p30. For that, dual-link HD-SDI or HDMI was said to be required, which the EX1 has neither. I will locate those sources and if we can determine they are wrong, there's nothing stopping me from buying the EX1.

Hi Mike-
To add confirmation to some of the other posts, 1080p30 is absolutely part of the single-link HD-SDI spec. 1080p50 and 1080p60 require dual-link or 3G HD-SDI.

The EX1 does support 108030 (actually 1080p29.97) recording. However, without additional tests, I am not sure if the HD-SDI output is 1080p29.97 or 1080i59.94. In 1080p23.98 mode, the HD-SDI output is 1080i59.94; the pull-down frames are automatically added. However, Flash XDR can record this signal in 1080p23.98 by removing these frames before MPEG2 compression.

Thanks Mike for this clarification - having ordered the Flash XDR, I was a bit upset by this confusion about the EX1's HD-SDI output capabilities :)

It's worth noting that for 1080, both the interlace versions and 1080p/30 are exactly the same amount of data, each 1080x30 lines every second. Hence, if an HD-SDI link will carry 1080i/30, it should also carry 1080p/30.

Thanks everyone for finally clearing that up for me! Well it looks like it's time for me to go back and correct some previous posts and to head to the bank for the EX1. I also found this for anyone interested in how HD video bandwidth is calculated...
http://www.internet2.edu/presentations/fall05/20050921-highendvid-holub.pdf

Bandwidth calculation:
Resolution: 1920×1080 = 2200×1125 with blanking lines
Color depth: 10 bits/point/color plane = 30 bits/point
Sampling: 4:2:2 = 2/3 bit/point

(2200×1125 pixles) x (30 bit/point) x (30 fps) x (2/3 bit/point) = 1485000000 bps
1485000000 bps = 1.485 Gbps

That leaves exactly 0 kbps for 2 channels of uncompressed audio! So now what? Help please...

It's worth noting that for 1080, both the interlace versions and 1080p/30 are exactly the same amount of data, each 1080x30 lines every second. Hence, if an HD-SDI link will carry 1080i/30, it should also carry 1080p/30.

Just to correct your last sentence David - I guess you meant this:

" if an HD-SDI link will carry 1080i/60, it should also carry 1080p/30."

Am i right? :)

Just to correct your last sentence David - I guess you meant this:

" if an HD-SDI link will carry 1080i/60, it should also carry 1080p/30."

Am i right? :)
No, though there may be some debate depending which part of the world you're in, different territories have different standard setting bodies. In Europe the EBU defined a few years ago that standards should be written in the form ab/c, where a=no active lines, b=scan method (progressive, interlace, or psf) and c=no of FRAMES/sec. See http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_home.html and click on article 301: Editorial: HDTV format wars, third paragraph.

They decided there was merit in the final no always corresponding to frames, and not frames for progressive systems, but fields for interlace. Hence the two numbers simply define the amount of information without reference to the scanning system.

I think the forward slash is supposed to denote that the new system is being referred to - hence old nomenclature is 1080i60, new standard is 1080i/30, but 1080i/60 infers a 1080 line system with 60 frames, 120 fields/sec.

So no, I could have put 1080i60, but I didn't mean 1080i/60. :-)

...

Bandwidth calculation:
Resolution: 1920×1080 = 2200×1125 with blanking lines
Color depth: 10 bits/point/color plane = 30 bits/point
Sampling: 4:2:2 = 2/3 bit/point

(2200×1125 pixles) x (30 bit/point) x (30 fps) x (2/3 bit/point) = 1485000000 bps
1485000000 bps = 1.485 Gbps

That leaves exactly 0 kbps for 2 channels of uncompressed audio! So now what? Help please...

That's not how SDI works.

In analog interfaces the signal must carry the vertical and horizontal sync signals as well as blanking intervals. These lay before and after each active part of each line (active part is the portion of the signal which effectively contains picture signal).

But in digital interfaces, there is no need to digitize the sync and blanking portions of the signal. Their values are always known, and they are of no use while the video remains digital, so in order to save space, only the active samples are stored. If the video must be converted back to an analog interface, the sync and blanking will be generated and interleaved with the active video by the DAC.

But it is impractical to transmit just these active samples, because this would complicate the design of DACs, so it is more convenient to 'leave a gap' between the EAV (end of active video) of each line and the SAV (start of active video) of the following line. The 'duration' (or number of bits) of the gap correspond, as you are guessing, to the duration of the sync and blanking of each line.

And, of course, to leave something unused is against an engineer's religion, so they quickly developed methods to take profit of these gaps and fill them with ancillary data, that is, any kind of data that could fit in the remaining bandwidth, such as audio, captions, test signals, error correction, metadata, etc.

So, of these 1.485 Gb/s, just 1.244 are used for video. That leaves enough bandwidth to accomodate 48 channels of uncompressed 24 bits, 192 KHz digital audio!

Excuse me, off topic, another new device using drives instead of flash, and JPEG2000. The following publicity explicitly states that the "Elite HD" supports the EX-1!

http://www.ffv.com/releases/080325.htm

Except for info in that link, the device is apparently not available for view until NAB (as a prototype?).

We all knew something like these devices would be coming - as for myself, like one other responder to the above link, I may just wait for Cineform SOLID.

No, though there may be some debate depending which part of the world you're in, different territories have different standard setting bodies. In Europe the EBU defined a few years ago that standards should be written in the form ab/c, where a=no active lines, b=scan method (progressive, interlace, or psf) and c=no of FRAMES/sec. See http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/trev_home.html and click on article 301: Editorial: HDTV format wars, third paragraph.

They decided there was merit in the final no always corresponding to frames, and not frames for progressive systems, but fields for interlace. Hence the two numbers simply define the amount of information without reference to the scanning system.

I think the forward slash is supposed to denote that the new system is being referred to - hence old nomenclature is 1080i60, new standard is 1080i/30, but 1080i/60 infers a 1080 line system with 60 frames, 120 fields/sec.

So no, I could have put 1080i60, but I didn't mean 1080i/60. :-)

Hi David-
This can be very confusing. However, most people specify the number of fields when describing interlaced formats and the number of frames in progressive formats. The Sony EX1 brochure specifies 1080/59.94i (59.94 fields per second) and 1080/29.97p (29.97 frames per second). That's the "standard" we followed on the Flash XDR specification. But. if in doubt it's always best to ask.