Forgive me if this was answered elsewhere in this forum. I know the EX records in 4:2:0 but does the SDI output offer 4:2:2 output prior to recording?

by definition, HD-SDI is 4:2:2.
It's been confirmed that the EX1 outputs real 4:2:2 at the SDI port and not a 4:2:0 in a 4:2:2 wrapper.

So this is super clean, uncompressed 8bit 4:2:2 1080p right?

according to what I've read. I haven't personally confirmed this. And isn't HD-SDI 10 bit? I think so.

it can be either 8 or 10

Is there something official from Sony on this?

Juan Martinez, a high ranking person at Sony US, was quoted in an earlier thread saying it is true 10 bit 422 uncompressed HD-SDI. Do a search, I'm sure you'll find it.

-Sean

8 bit 4:2:0 is what you get on the SxS card. The SDI is 10 bit 4:2:2

It only outputs 60i correct? For example, if you filmed in 1080/24p and wanted to capture or send to tape via the hd sdi output the camera puts a pull down in it.

It only outputs 60i correct? For example, if you filmed in 1080/24p and wanted to capture or send to tape via the hd sdi output the camera puts a pull down in it.


Are you saying the HD-SDI output will not output a progessive signal 24P, 30P or 60P???

Like most cameras that record in 4:2:0 with an HDSDI output, the camera will give true 4:2:2 output only when the signal is taken live from the camera head. After recording, what comes out is 4:2:0 upsampled or wrapped in 4:2:2 in order to comply with HDSDI specs.

In live mode, it's confirmed that the EX1 outputs a true 10 bit HDSDI signal.

-gb-

Can it output 1080P from the HDSDI with 422 space before recording??

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's standard for HD SDI to pump out 1080P at 1080i with pulldown.

In fact, this is how data is stored on DVDs. 24P Movies are encoded to DVD interlaced with pulldown. Progressive conversion can be performed digitally inside the progressive player. Since DVDs must have the ability to display interlace, they must be stored in that format.

In fact, this is how data is stored on DVDs. 24P Movies are encoded to DVD interlaced with pulldown. Progressive conversion can be performed digitally inside the progressive player. Since DVDs must have the ability to display interlace, they must be stored in that format.

Steven, I'm fairly certain that you can author a DVD in true 24P without pulldown. This is an old trick for gaining about 20% extra capacity on a DVD. The player will create the pulldown to 60i upon output to the TV. The extra capacity can then be used to fill out the space with a higher quality encode or, keep the same quality and add more running time to the program.

-gb-

Still looking for a clear answer here.
Does the EX output true 4:2:2 1080P from the HDSDI port?

YES!

It is true 4:2:2 10 bit HD-SDI in whatever format you're shooting. If the camera is in a 1080 mode, it outputs 1080 over SDI. No compression, just the in camera image processing (white balance, gamma, etc.) are applied. Below is a quote from Sony's Juan Martinez.

-Sean



Juan Martinez, Senior Manager Technology, Sony, posted the following in another forum regarding the EX1, color space and keying. I thought it was so important given the 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0 arguments I've seen, I'm posting it here. Juan, if you're looking in I'm sure you won't mind it. It's important to get this info out there.

"Actually, the Ex1 outputs honest to goodness 10-bit 4:2:2 at all resolutions via its built-in HDSDI/ SDI interface."

"Now, a word about "color space". In the old SD days, 4:4:4, 4:2:2 and 4:2:0 had absolute meaning and direct correlation to the picture quality (luminance and color resolution). In the case of HD, 4:4:4, 4:2:2 and 4:2:0 are relative. Thus, these ratios have no "real" meaning anymore. Therefore, it would be possible for an HD format with small luminance and color spatial resolution to claim 4:2:2... so, the only way to compare is to count the actual captured pixel resolution. Once, you know the exact number of luminance pixels stored, you can apply the ratio to compare apples to apples (for a given aspect ratio)."

"For compositing, all that is necessary is for color sampling to be tight enough for the keyer to effectively detect the edges. You will find that Ex captures 960 color pixels in the horizontal direction capturing a higher color resolution than some HD formats. The color sampling is also halved in the vertical to 540, which is still suitable for good keying. Lastly, at the core of modern compositing engines are sophisticated keying algorithms that even look at luminance transitions to more accurately detect the edges. Please try keying with Ex 4:2:0. I believe you will be surprised how good keys you will be able to achieve."

"Sorry for the long winded reply. I hope it helps."

"Juan Martinez
Senior Manger Technology
Sony Electronics"

Is it true that you can't output in 24p when recording via HD-SDI??

At present it's 24p embedded in 60i with pulldown.

In my conversations with Sony reps at NAB they indicated that there would be real 24p with a firmware update in August.

At present it's 24p embedded in 60i with pulldown.

In my conversations with Sony reps at NAB they indicated that there would be real 24p with a firmware update in August.

That's correct. The EX-3 will have 24p over HDSDI when it ships, and the EX-1 will get it via a firmware update.

-gb-

So it will record and output in 24p after the firmware?

Has anyone been using any HD-SDI recorders? I have looked at a few but they all seem extremely expenive.

Any advice on some that are on the market that are not too ridiclous? If you guys can post some good HD-SDI recorders I would appreciate that.

Thanks,

-Dennis

Double edit post.

After the update it should. However 24p embedded in a 60i sream is not a problem as most capture software can do the pulldown automatically, capturing clean 24p.

[crap lost my message, retype]

HS SDI field recorders can be quite expensive, but the Convergent Design Flash XDR is close to release at ~$5k (ex flash cards). The Cineform recorder is even less expensive (half?) but uses HDMI, so needs an adapter/converter to take the HD SDI. A bit more 'upscale' is the colorspaceinc.com Icon which uses drive packs and starts at about ~10k I believe.

I believe most solutions currently use either a PC/Mac with something like an AJA or Blackmagic card to ingest the HD SDI directly.

There is also the AJA Io HD device to capture full raster 10-bit HD SDI using a Macbook Pro in ProRes 422 only. And Matrox is releasing the MXO2 this summer to add codec agnostic ingest/capture with bells on it (including HD SDI) to Macbook Pro's.

George/

After the update it should. However 24p embedded in a 60i sream is not a problem as most capture software can do the pulldown automatically, capturing clean 24p.

[crap lost my message, retype]

HS SDI field recorders can be quite expensive, but the Convergent Design Flash XDR is close to release at ~$5k (ex flash cards). The Cineform recorder is even less expensive (half?) but uses HDMI, so needs an adapter/converter to take the HD SDI. A bit more 'upscale' is the colorspaceinc.com Icon which uses drive packs and starts at about ~10k I believe.

I believe most solutions currently use either a PC/Mac with something like an AJA or Blackmagic card to ingest the HD SDI directly.

There is also the AJA Io HD device to capture full raster 10-bit HD SDI using a Macbook Pro in ProRes 422 only. And Matrox is releasing the MXO2 this summer to add codec agnostic ingest/capture with bells on it (including HD SDI) to Macbook Pro's.

George/

I am looking forward to checking out the FLASH XDR. At 5k it does not seem to be too ridiculous although still expensive. Hopefully the prices start going down in the future as the demand goes up.

How can an ext recorder detect when to start recording connected to the HD-SDI plug?

I'm not sure if any of them do, but SDI includes TC, so if you're in rec run mode it would be able to detect start/stop.

Like most cameras that record in 4:2:0 with an HDSDI output, the camera will give true 4:2:2 output only when the signal is taken live from the camera head. After recording, what comes out is 4:2:0 upsampled or wrapped in 4:2:2 in order to comply with HDSDI specs.

In live mode, it's confirmed that the EX1 outputs a true 10 bit HDSDI signal.

-gb-

To the author of this thread -- I think that this post is sufficient.

Just watched an interview with Bob Ott, vice president of Sony Professional. He was promoting the new EX3. One issue during the interview which surprised me was that the SDI out is hobbled with 4:2:0 output and not 422 as one would expect. This interview is available at FreshDV from their NAB series.

Why why why do that??? Totally lame if you ask me. The good old Canon H1 does 422.


Still looking for a clear answer here.
Does the EX output true 4:2:2 1080P from the HDSDI port?

Just watched an interview with Bob Ott, vice president of Sony Professional. He was promoting the new EX3. One issue during the interview which surprised me was that the SDI out is hobbled with 4:2:0 output and not 422 as one would expect. This interview is available at FreshDV from their NAB series.

Why why why do that??? Totally lame if you ask me. The good old Canon H1 does 422.

Hmm.
This I have to hear... I actually find it hard to believe. Since the bulk of the internal camera head and processing is the same as the EX1, why would they change it...

Had the same thought myself, why change or is it really 422 out on the EX1?, don't own one so can't comment. I would be surprised if the VP got it wrong though.

http://www.freshdv.com/

Its on the home page in the featured video section.


Hmm.
This I have to hear... I actually find it hard to believe. Since the bulk of the internal camera head and processing is the same as the EX1, why would they change it...

Hmm.
Makes me wonder if they disabled 4:2:2 for the EX3 for marketing reasons?
I still find that VERY odd...


The EX1 was already confirmed. It was even verified that it's 10 bit via SDI.
Barlow Elton sent raw EX1 files to Cineform a while back and was told it was 4:2:2 full 10 bit.

I still don't quite believe it. He says that it is still 420, but I think he was confused and thought the question was directed at the recorded color space. It has been confirmed by numerous sources that the HD-SDI is 422 in live mode, and 420 when playing back from media.

I'd also say he got confused because the interviewer first blurted out 4:2:0. The response was delayed a bit before the Sony Exec answered and I could see him trying to develop an answer. Then a bit latter he mentions that the EX1 will be firmware upgraded to the same EX3 capabilities.

The EX1 has been confirmed to be 4:2:2. Sony is not going to take a step backward with the planned firmware update. Stop and think about it. The EX3 is intended for studio work which today relies heavily on chroma keying.

It would not be the first time an Exec did not fully know the capabilities of a product, thats not really their job, more a marketing and product management job.

However if you're going to be interviewed make sure you know your stuff or pass it to someone who does to avoid confusion.

I actually agree that it would be unlikely that Sony would downgrade the spec if the EX1 has already been independently confirmed as 422 and 10 bit.

But when you get it from the horses mouth you gots ta wonder!!!

Pretty fine camera it is too.

I'd also say he got confused because the interviewer first blurted out 4:2:0. The response was delayed a bit before the Sony Exec answered and I could see him trying to develop an answer. Then a bit latter he mentions that the EX1 will be firmware upgraded to the same EX3 capabilities.

The EX1 has been confirmed to be 4:2:2. Sony is not going to take a step backward with the planned firmware update. Stop and think about it. The EX3 is intended for studio work which today relies heavily on chroma keying.

"Several color encodings are possible in the serial digital interface. The default (and most common case) is 10-bit linearly sampled video data encoded as 4:2:2 YCbCr. (YCbCr is a digital representation of the YPbPr colorspace). Samples of video are stored as described above. Data words correspond to signal levels of the respective video components, as follows:
The luminance (Y) channel is defined such that a signal level of 0 mV is assigned the codeword 64 (40 hex), and 700 millivolts (full scale) is assigned the codeword 940 (3AC hex) .
For the chroma channels, 0 mV is assigned the code word 512 (200 hex), -350mV is assigned a code word of 64 (40 hex), and +350mV is assigned a code word of 960 (3C0 hex)."
It looks like the rep. misspoke unless Sony is doing something odd.

With all due respect to Bob, I believe he mis-spoke in the heat of the interview.

At NAB, he's got about a million things on his mind so I'd give him a pass on this. I can get clarification on it.

You can pretty much believe that it's 4:2:2 when taken live from the camera head.

-gb-

It's 4:2:2 when output live. Bob says he is going to contact them to clarify.

-gb-

I would love to see actual footage of this method, with a cross comparison to capturing 4:2:2 live from camera, versus just capturing to card.

Anyone find any footage taken at this point?

Peace and Blessings,
Hidalgo

I would love to see actual footage of this method, with a cross comparison to capturing 4:2:2 live from camera, versus just capturing to card.

Anyone find any footage taken at this point?

Peace and Blessings,
Hidalgo

I really would like to see a comparison video on 422 vs 420

With all due respect to Bob, I believe he mis-spoke in the heat of the interview.

Thanks for raising this question, Greg. We spoke with Bob Ott once more, and he confirmed that the EX3 outputs 4:2:2 from the spigot. The interview video segment (http://www.freshdv.com/2008/04/nab-2008-sony-ex3.html) has been re-edited to reflect this correction.

Remember what was said earlier in this discussion - 4:2:2 is somewhat meaningless at this point. What really matters is how many color pixels are actually recorded, since even poor color can be packaged into 4:2:2 or even 4:4:4. I am an HVX-200 user, partially because of the incredible color quality. It will be instructive to have some blinded observers look at video from several sources, including perhaps the EX-1, the EX-3 and the HVX (or the new HPX-170, which has HD-SDI output as well).

What really matters is how many color pixels are actually recorded,

Which is all the reason full 1920x1080 raster SDI 4:2:2 10 bit out of the EX1 is decent.

from the manual page 116
so that's why my aja iohd "sees" a 1080i25 signal when i haqve a ex1 1080p25 preset

gues for doest mather quality wise because the psf is only a way to store the progressive signal in a interlaced wrapper so both the uper and lower field are taken in the same time
as for the 8 or 10 bit 422 or 420 stil waiting for an answer from sony

cheers

martijn