Hello,

I'm intrigued by some of the comments I've seen on the SR12. For my application, however, I can't live with the 10,000 foot elevation limit of the hard disk. So, question #1 is this: Does anyone know if the hard drive is completely off and spun down when you are recording to the flash media? To avoid damage, it would have to always be off in this mode, even when powering the camera on and off.

Question #2 regards the quality of the OIS. I tried a CX7 once and wasn't overly impressed with the OIS compared to, say the Panasonic SD1 (and presumably SD9). Does the SR12 show any improvement?

Thanks in advance.

Dave, it is my understanding the HDD is parked when recording to the flash drive. If I record to the HDD, I can hear a very very faint clicking as the HDD spins. When I'm recording to memory stick I hear absolutely nothing. So I know it's not spinning and I'm assuming it's parked.

I'm not familiar with the CX7 to give you a comparison between the OIS of both. I have found the OIS of the SR12 to be very good.

I'm fairly sure the hard drive is always spinning. The clicking you hear, are the read/write heads being accessed, & the drive will idle down when not in record/play mode.

PS... what is this 10'000 ft elevation limit on the hard drive? I've not heard of this before.

I'm fairly sure the hard drive is always spinning. The clicking you hear, are the read/write heads being accessed, & the drive will idle down when not in record/play mode.

PS... what is this 10'000 ft elevation limit on the hard drive? I've not heard of this before.

http://www.camcorderanswers.com/manuals/canon_hg10.pdf

page 7

Do not use the camcorder at high altitudes

Turn on or using the camcorder in places with low atmospheric pressure such as
at altitudes higher than 3,000m (9,800 ft), may result in hard disk damage.

Hmm. Thanks for the inputs, but it sounds like there might be some uncertainty. If the HDD is not being accessed, it will not make clicking sounds even if it is powered up and spinning, so the lack of clicks alone is probably not enough to tell. Unfortunately, it would have to be all the way off to avoid damage at high el.

A small hard drive that is spinning but not being accessed is fairly quiet, but might make enough noise to be heard if, in a very quiet room, you hold your ear up to the unit in the area where the hard drive is. Better might be to use a stethoscope, but most folks don't have one.

I'm thinking it might be hard to tell in a store like Best Buy or Fry's because of the high ambient noise level. If it's not possible to know for sure, I probably shouldn't take a risk on the SR12.

I'm fairly sure the hard drive is always spinning. The clicking you hear, are the read/write heads being accessed, & the drive will idle down when not in record/play mode.


Putting my ear up to the unit with the recording mode set to flash drive, I do hear a very slight humming, so I guess you're right, the HDD is spinning. I wonder why they wouldn't just have it parked when recording to flash.

Putting my ear up to the unit with the recording mode set to flash drive, I do hear a very slight humming, so I guess you're right, the HDD is spinning. I wonder why they wouldn't just have it parked when recording to flash.

Good question. In addition to getting them around the 10,000 foot limitation (admittedly not a big issue for 99% of people), it would also save power and improve battery life a bit when recording to card.

Anyway, thanks for the help, looks like the question's been answered.

It might depend on how the drive is configured - the key question would be are the heads on the media or "parked" when you're not recording to the HDD - maybe a Sony engineer might know the answer to that, or if you could find out the HDD manufacturer. As long as the heads aren't over the media, the height issue should go away, and you'd record to the MSDuo...

I just got my SR12 and listening outside in a very quiet location, I can hear a slight noise both with the movie media set to hard disk and memory stick, though it seems a bit quieter with the memory stick option. I don't know why they couldn't turn the disk off (and the noise) with the memory stick, so it would be possibly to get totally quiet and clean audio recordings. Still, after a couple hours with the camcorder, I am overall very happy with it!

Ruth, I think you'll find that there is virtually no noise from the camcorder that's recorded in the video. The only sound you'll get is the ambient noise around you.

It might depend on how the drive is configured - the key question would be are the heads on the media or "parked" when you're not recording to the HDD - maybe a Sony engineer might know the answer to that, or if you could find out the HDD manufacturer. As long as the heads aren't over the media, the height issue should go away, and you'd record to the MSDuo...

With modern hard drives, the term "parked" just means that the heads are positioned over the landing zone, which is an area of the disk that does not store data and is designed for the head to make contact when the platter spins down, but is otherwise a normal area of the disk. When the platter begins spinning up (or finishes spinning down), the head is momentarily in contact with the surface while the platter is spinning. The disk is designed for this to occur, but it only occurs for a few hundred mS or so each time the drive spins up or down. The problem with high altitude is that if the pressure gets low enough, there is an insufficient cushion of air and the heads can begin to rub continuously. Even if this happens on the landing zone, the drive wasn't designed to handle this and it can cause damage to the heads. Many people think "parking" means that the heads are physically yanked away from the platter, but that's not the case, at least not with modern drives.

Here's an interesting article describing head parking:

http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/op/actParking.html

Hard drives are fairly new in camcorders, but this has actually been a big problem with iPods; you don't have to search the net too long to find lots of stories, despite the warning Apple puts in the manual. Sometimes the iPods worked when they got back down below 10,000 feet (if they were smart enough to turn them off when they first heard funny noises), and sometimes they didn't.

I doubt these big companies listen too well, but what might be worthwhile would be to send a suggestion that they fully power down the hard drive when using cards in their next generation of cameras. The altitude issue probably doesn't affect a large percentage of their users, but everyone would appreciate a little extra battery life.

That's where I'd be just as happy with a slightly smaller lighter camera with 16-32G flash and no HDD...

Makes me wonder what the "CX9" will look like - love to see the larger LCD, the control knob, and a VF in 100% flash format... The SR11 looks pretty close, but I realize that HDD bugs me a bit as well - I've grown used to the CX7 size and weight, but a bit more size with more features and not much weight would be nice!

Well, after it got dark I tore myself away from playing with my new toy to loading the footage onto my computer for review. I am very impressed with the image quality, and think the face detection feature is amazing. The exposure may need to be set manually (there was some evidence of blown highlights with a pale face against a dark background) but in terms of locking onto the face with the right focus, I could hardly believe how well it worked. This will solve a major problem I have in shooting when the on camera talent moves enough to throw out focus that I have in the past preset manually.

There is a very slight clicking sound audible when I REALLY crank up my speakers. This won't be a problem for 90% of my shooting. The only thing is, I would like to record good environmental ambience (my background is in doing natural sound audio), and clearly I will still need my Fostex recorder and Sennheiser mics for this. But for recording voice, and anything but really quiet audio, it seems that the mics are very good, and the noise floor is way below that with tape based camcorders. So I am very pleased with this upgrade (I have had the Sony HC7 and the Canon HV20 for the past year, so was looking to get away from tapes, finally).

That's where I'd be just as happy with a slightly smaller lighter camera with 16-32G flash and no HDD...

Makes me wonder what the "CX9" will look like - love to see the larger LCD, the control knob, and a VF in 100% flash format... The SR11 looks pretty close, but I realize that HDD bugs me a bit as well - I've grown used to the CX7 size and weight, but a bit more size with more features and not much weight would be nice!

Judging from the way Sony upgrades their prior models, I'd look for a CX9 to be a physical clone of the CX7, but with 1920X1080 recording, face detection and most importantly the EXMOR and BIONZ processing.

Judging from the way Sony upgrades their prior models, I'd look for a CX9 to be a physical clone of the CX7, but with 1920X1080 recording, face detection and most importantly the EXMOR and BIONZ processing.

Hopefully some improvement in the OIS too ;-) (sounds like the SR12 is better, so maybe the CX9 will be too). I haven't heard that any CX9 has been announced (has it?), so it might be a while before we know the answers.

Hopefully some improvement in the OIS too ;-) (sounds like the SR12 is better, so maybe the CX9 will be too). I haven't heard that any CX9 has been announced (has it?), so it might be a while before we know the answers.

No CX9 announcements yet, but it seems many would be surprised if we didn't see one in the not too distant future.

Just thought I would let everyone know that I recently purchased the SR12 and was very disappointed to read about the low-pressure issue in the manual. Well, I spoke with a product specialist at Sony who said the camera IS designed to operate in low-pressure environments. Although they couldn't give a reason as to why it states that in the manual. Maybe as a pre-caution? I don't know....I will find out soon, as I plan to do a lot of work with it well over 12,000 feet.

Has anyone actually had the camera malfunction at a high elevation?

I will find out soon, as I plan to do a lot of work with it well over 12,000 feet.

Has anyone actually had the camera malfunction at a high elevation?

Although it would be great to settle this issue for sure, if you're going to do this, you might want to ask the product specialist if he/she is willing to back up their statement with a promise to repair your camera free of charge if the hard drive gets damaged at high altitude.

Standard hard drives *do* have problems at altitudes over approximately 12,000 feet. Although HDD camcorders are fairly new and most people don't take them that high, you don't have to search too long to find numerous reports of damaged HDD ipods on the net. Sony would either have to use a special (i.e., expensive) pressure sealed drive or have taken steps to make sure that the HDD stays completely spun down when recording to the memory card (which appears not to be the case).

Dave, That is a good idea to talk to ask the product specialist for the guarantee, I will try, but I do have insurance on the camera as well. So I'm willing to take my chances b/c the sole reason I purchased the camera was to be able to hike it in to high alpine areas, as it is such a lightweight camera. I will reply to this post as soon as I test it out at a high elevation.

Nick, just out of curiosity, what will be the highest elevation you will be using the camera at?

There is almost certainly some safety margin built into the 12,000 ft. limit, so I wouldn't be surprised if things work OK at 13,000 ft. or so, maybe even higher.

Dave, I don't know for sure. Most lakes I plan to fish aren't any higher than tree line, which is usually about 12,000 ft. But I would like to get a time-lapse or sunrise/set shot at the top of a peak, which would be about 13-14,000 ft.

So you think I'll be ok?

Dave, I don't know for sure. Most lakes I plan to fish aren't any higher than tree line, which is usually about 12,000 ft. But I would like to get a time-lapse or sunrise/set shot at the top of a peak, which would be about 13-14,000 ft.

So you think I'll be ok?

I don't know for sure. I've never taken any kind of HDD with me on hiking and climbing trips, so like you I'm just going from what I have read. You should be OK at 12,000 since the manual sort of guarantees that. Above that would depend on how much safety margin is built into that spec, unless, of course, the camera really is designed to go higher as you were told by the Sony person.

I do know that there are reports of damaged ipods, and in the U.S., outside of Alaska, you can't get higher than 14,500 feet. The "red line" for non-pressure-sealed HDD's must be somewhere in that range.

Like you, most places I would use the camera are below 12,500 or so, but I don't want to preclude using it at peaks and higher passes, so I decided to limit my choices to solid state memory cams. I've pretty much decided on the HF100, but am waiting until I actually need it since the prices are still dropping.

Nick I am very interested in your findings. I am going to be using my SR12 at 10-12000 ft in early August.

One possible aspect of this could be how much bumping around the cam/HDD can take. If I understand it correctly, since the HDD is vented, as the air pressure drops and the air gets "thinner" the layer of air between the heads and the platters would have less "resistance" to any bouncing around.

IF this theory holds any water (air?), careful handling while the camcorder is on might allow use at higher altitudes, within reason. Tripod use would for instance be workable... running across a snow field not so much...

I believe someone in another forum actually removed the HDD and the cam still worked on the MS Duo... I'm sure the warranty is void at that point, but it suggests that with dual record, it's still the equivalent of the memory stick cams even it the HDD dies...

If you plan to record above 11k ft, I would suggest you at least take the precaution of only recording to a Memorystick. Although the hard drive does power up even in memorytick mode, it would minimize the risk.

The hard drive is basically the same model that is used in IPODs, in fact, there is a report on a blog of someone that swapped hard drives from an IPOD to an SR1. The SR11/12 use a little different HDD, but I'll bet the newer IPODS may even use the same drives.

If you do a little research, you will find that this is a very real issue, and that IPODS have been effected, but whether 11,000 or 12,000, or even 10,000 is the magic number is difficult to pin down, as there is a safety margin in the stated numbers. As another member mentioned, there is also the issue of whether the drive merely becomes more susceptible to bumps or not.

If you really want to be safe, you can set the camera to memorystick mode, and then easily open the camera (not recommended in the field), and disconnect the HDD cable. The camera will report a HDD error, but function normally. If I intended to do much high-altitude recording, that is what I would do. As it is, when I go skiing at 9,000-11,000 feet, I set the camera to memory stick mode, and take my chances. If my SR11 HDD fails, I figure I'll upgrade my camera to a SR13 with a bigger HDD :)

If you really want to be safe, you can set the camera to memorystick mode, and then easily open the camera (not recommended in the field), and disconnect the HDD cable. The camera will report a HDD error, but function normally.

It's cool that you can do this, but if there are two cables to the HDD, make sure to disconnect the power cable as well as the data cable. If the power cable remains attached, the HDD will still spin up even if the data cable is disconnected.

I'm surprised to hear that altitude is such an issue with HHDs. I have spent a fair amount of time in the Himalayas. It is common to see lots of laptops and other HDD hardware as high as Everest Base Camp (17,500'), and even Advanced Base Camp (20,000') on the North side. One consideration may be that, unlike iPods and HDD VideoCams, the laptops are usually sitting stationary while in use. Or, maybe there were more problems than I was ever aware of.
Interesting topic since I just bought an SR12. Maybe I better stick with XDCam for those kind of adventures.

Highly likely that a stationary device is less prone to failure - the problem supposedly is that the reduced density of the air provides less support for the heads "flying" over the platters, so this would tend to suggest the drive CAN survive, but don't bump it around too much.

I just thought I would let everyone know that I've been shooting my SR12 all summer well above 12,000 ft. I haven't had any problems with it. The highest I've shot is about 13,000 ft.

Great info Nick. This should help SR11/12 owners that venture into high altitudes since this has been a long standing, unresolved question.

I'll add to the discussion - the HDD can be removed from the SR11/12 - only 4 screws, and it can be popped right out - only a ribbon cable connects HDD to the cam - the drive itself is supported by a cushy foam insert.

You can still record to MS Duo, and while the camera constantly flashes an error message due to the absence of the Hard Drive, it operates just fine.


Recently had the chance to check this, so just had to try it! Also, I'll note that after seeing how the HDD is mounted, I'm far more comfortable that the camera would be pretty rugged - I suspect that between the drop sensor and the design, anything that would damage the drive probably would result in the total loss of the camera... feeling better about the idea of a HDD now! I know it "might" fail one day, but by then my 256GB MS Duo <wink> should work fine!

Well, I have a question about this camera.
Did you find AE is quite bad in many situations? For instance, I shoot a mountain and the sky is blown; many times I shoot the grass and if in center is a shadow zone then it blows the highlights.
I put one clip Bad AE? on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/1663997). It's in AE, I move the camera up and down to see how AE changes...
At last (not in this clip) I switch to manual; on camera's LCD the sky looks good (with clouds) only if the mountain is a little dark; but I find that image on my HDTV is whiter (and ok) than camera's LCD...

Actually been fairly happy with the AE, I just looked at some footage similar to yours, and I do see the sky blown out on SOME of the parts of the clip... but the majority looks great.

I'd be inclined to suggest you try the AE shift - I've used that myself, and it's not unusual for Sony to run the exposure a bit on the bright side. This is probably to brighten up indoor scenes, and by using AE shift you can override it farily sucessfully - looks better, with a bit more contrast anyway!

Try AE shift -2 to -4 and see if that helps? If exposure is STILL a problem, check the zebras, with AE shift a couple points to the negative (which will set the auto a little less "hot" - exposure will be on top of that), and assign the control button/wheel to exposure and go manual as needed.

Auto can only go so far, and that's when having SOME control becomes helpful. Generally I'd say the camera makes pretty good decisions about what section of the scene it needs to focus/expose "properly", but if a portion is not the way YOU want it, override with the exposure control. You may want something to one side of the scene to be the focus/exposure point, where the cam will look to the center... just override as needed.

Thank you Dave for your advice. I was happy with AE until that day. I tried spot exposure and it works pretty well, too.
In night scenes manual exposure (or AE shift) is also needed; I don't try if AE shift can be used to limit autogain to some extent... instead of using twilight mode.

[Best response I can get from a Sony video technican and his rsponse from sony after four (4) different answers. Here is my latest , I am still not sur what to do as I do not want to by another camera maybe I go back tope and my old Panasonic???

Hi Geoff,

Below is the best response I can get from Sony.

Thanks, Jeff



a. Is the HDD completely independent of the operation of the MS?? Yes


b. Does the HDD spin while recording video to MS?? I would say No


c. I am travelling to Sth America in March and want know if I can

safely ONLY using MS, record to MS then the back up using portable DVD
burner

at Cuzco (Peru) and La Paz (Bolivia) both place are above 3000M?? Out of
the Operation Manual "Note on using the camcorder at high altitudes - Do
not turn on the camcorder in a low pressure area, where altitude is more
than 3000 meters or 9800 feet. Doing so may damage the hard disk of your
camcorder. This is also when using memory stick because when turning on
camcorder will initialise and activate hard drive.


A suggestion if he's after a non HDD, he could research the HDRTG1E.

you could take a look at the MS Duo only CX12 - I saw BB closing out at $700... no VF and smaller screen, but great little cam with similar overall controls and same sensor block. Same accessories all around except for the dock, so you could still travel light, even if you took one of each.

If you already have an SR12, it takes 4 screws (jeweler's Phillips screwdriver) to pop the side, then gently detach the ribbon cable - the cam will run fine if set to record to MS, although it will give a warning message. You wouldn't even probably need to take the HDD out, as it won't spin up with the cable disconnected. If you disconnect the HDD end, you'd probably want to insulate the end, but IIRC the other end is easy to detach (And I'd think the better choice - always make sure there's no chance of shorting anything...).

I can't guarantee it, but you should be fine downloading files even with the HDD disconnected - since you can choose the USB connection (HDD or MS).

This might "void your warranty", but should be better than head crashing a HDD...

Hope that helps you solve the dilemma