What do you think about the idea to start a thread where we ALL can post questions about the EX1 (Red problem etc...). We will chose one person from this board who can ask them at the NAB show and post the answers here on DVinfo.net.

Well you can add the non-appearance of lower cost SxS cards for starters... or maybe get a lead as to when the lower costs will start to trickle in. Maybe when they've recovered their R&D costs?

What do you think about the idea to start a thread where we ALL can post questions about the EX1 (Red problem etc...). We will chose one person from this board who can ask them at the NAB show and post the answers here on DVinfo.net.

That's not a bad idea. Unfortunatly I will not be at the show but I would be interested to know what those Sony guys know. I don't know if they will be able to answer even half of the questions we throw out at them. When you call sony about the issues stated on this forum they seem oblivious to it. What makes you think the guys at the Sony booth will know better?

Dennis,
Unfortunatly I will not be at the show but I would be interested to know what those Sony guys know.

I'm there, but my english and my knowledge about camcorders is not good enough to discuss this complex question with them really good.

When you call sony about the issues stated on this forum they seem oblivious to it. What makes you think the guys at the Sony booth will know better? Well last year when I was at the IBC in Amsterdam I realized that Sony really had some of the EX1 engineers at the show and not only fair hostess like they do it at car shows. So these guys really know what they are selling there!

When somebody like the Board-Owner or an other representative from Dvinfo.net will ask them these questions I'm sure they will do their best to answer them. In my opinion this Board can do more for their positive (also negative) image than any Video magazin can do. Here are the people who REALLY buy such a camcorder.

Dennis,


I'm there, but my english and my knowledge about camcorders is not good enough to discuss this complex question with them really good.

Well last year when I was at the IBC in Amsterdam I realized that Sony really had some of the EX1 engineers at the show and not only fair hostess like they do it at car shows. So these guys really know what they are selling there!

When somebody like the Board-Owner or an other representative from Dvinfo.net will ask them these questions I'm sure they will do their best to answer them. In my opinion this Board can do more for their positive (also negative) image than any Video magazin can do. Here are the people who REALLY buy such a camcorder.

I agree with you. Lets hope they can answer a few questions

Like what kind of questions? Make a list. I'm sure we'll get them answered at NAB.

-gb-

Well here is a list of problems showing up:

1. Vignette problem...
Recognized by Sony, but many people get their camera's back after repair without the issue being fixed. What's up with that?

2. Backfocus problem...
I've heard some problems about Backfocus problems with the ND filter or something? What's up with that?

3. The problem with blacks that have reddish tints... People guess it has to do with the IR filtering. What's up with that?

4. Not a problem, but what Chris said: Sony promised support for lower cost cards... Are they artificially holding this up to make more profit? When are they coming?

6. I think it has to be made clear that these issues are costing people money! Sony should do something about them, or all these issues will become very negative press for Sony...

Let us all meet together at the Sony booth before the Sony party. Let them see some angry numbers. Say 3pm on April 14.

#7 (not everyone has a problem with this, but I sure do): When will the Sony Clip Browser for Macs do what it does for PCs... re-wrap the EX files to MXF, so I can get them into AVID and finally start editing!

Hopefully,
Malcolm

#8: Maybe Sony can tell us also why all these problems to downconvert HD to SD either via hardware or software.

#9: and from what others complained: the ND filter seems to jam in between stops

#10: zoom ring is quite loose when used in manual zooming

Dear Sony,

I paid you over $6,600 for my camera. Why on earth does it only perform on par with a $13,200 camera, rather than a $132,000 camera?

----

No, I really do understand that some of the issues users are experiencing are serious and significant (particularly the vignette and backfocus problems), but let's keep in mind that Sony has broken through just about every price / performance ratio that existed in the past. 1/2" chips... true 1920x1080 sensors, 23.976p performance, over/under cranking, tapeless workflow, true manual focus lens, the list goes on and on.

Sony should deal with the real issues relating to quality control and some of the fundamentals of the camera design, but those of us who have bought this camera have purchased amazing value for what we paid. We didn't by an F23, or even an F350. We didn't buy a Red. We paid less than $10,000 for a full camera system, including an amazing LCD screen and high-quality HD lens.

So here's my number 11: How do you get away with charging so little?

I definetely do not agree with you Jon. I always bought Sony cameras because Sony cameras are usually build professionally. The same cannot be said for the EX1. I cannot accept that a camera aimed for the semi-pro and even the pros can have such aweful issues such as the backfocus and vignette problems - irrespectively of price. Pros want a camera to work with, consistently everytime they switch on the camera - amateurs want something to film with occassionaly and in HD.

No Jon, a cheap price does not excuse Sony for this biggest blunder ever. I cannot tell my clients that the wide shots are slightly soft and out of focus because Sony decided not to give a hoot about it since the camera was aimed at a low price bracket. I cannot ask my clients to ignore the top corners of their plasma / lcd screen! And definetely I cannot dictate my client what type of DVD player / TV combo should he buy so as not to see the famous line twitter.

I also don't agree with Jon on this topic. Sure it's a big plus for Sony that they offer a camcorder under 10.000$ with 1/2" chips and true 1920x1080 sensors. That's what I was waiting for and this was the reasons why I didn't buy a (cheaper) HVX200. Also because I had zero problems with my PD170 during the last years!

But you can not really defend a camcorder which has so many problems just because we did not pay 200.000$ for it. For me a lower-budget version of the F23 with only black&white colors would be also useless! I would not pay 7000$ for something like this....

I don't like the idea to explain my customers why the German Flagg on a sports event will not be black-red-gold anylonger. lol

Thanks for all your questions!

I'm kind of agreeing with Jon here.
Sure I damn well want my camera fixed but at the same time I realise corners have to be cut at this price point. I cannot buy a decent prime lens for anything like the price of my EX1 let alone a zoom. A large part of the cost of top shelf optics is in the QA and by that I mean scrapping a lot of duds that don't meet spec. Judging by the anecdotal evidence we're getting here the yield rate on the EX1's lenses is the problem and I wonder what would happen to the price if a signifcant proportion had to be scrapped as they came off the production line.
If I'm right though this opens a can of worms for Sony. What should a potential purchaser do, get 10 cameras on approval and send back the 9 that fail on the optical test bench?
If Sony cannot fix these problems then they at the least need to manage the user expectation otherwise the disquiet is going to grow. At the moment it's their dealers left to face the music, I'd hate to be one of them. I know our local dealer is copping flak over this and in all fairness there's not much he can do while Sony remain in denial. No doubt there'll be plenty of dealers also at NAB giving Sony an earfull over this.
I can't add anything to the list of issues and I do support the idea of some concerted effort at NAB. Can I suggest one or more take along their cameras to demonstrate the problems first hand.
I'd also recommend a trip to The Dugout where Sony Australia host lunch for the expats. There you can find a quiet place to have an audible conversation with the Sony people, trying to do that in the chaos around the Sony stand would be a futile exercise.

I wouldn't expect much from the Sony reps at NAB. I have found most of the reps for Sony (or for most of the camera companies to be exact) to be pretty uninformed (brain dead is a little bit to strong a term).

I went to the GV Expo in Washington DC last November to ask the Sony guys some questions about the EX1 that I had on order. I was planning on taking the camera to Mongolia in February and wanted to know how it would handle the cold weather. Their response was why don't you call and tell us when you get back!!!!

I have found that if you read most of the information available online you will know twice as much as the "sales reps". What makes it worse is most of these guys have never picked up a camera and used it professionally. They just sell them.

I guess what I am saying is don't go to NAB expecting a lot of answers to your questions.

Daniel Weber

I guess what I am saying is don't go to NAB expecting a lot of answers to your questions.

Hmm, I was never at the NAB before. Maybe last year at the IBC I just talked to the right (japanese) guy. I'm sure he was an engineer and not a sales manager. But maybe in at NAB there are more US-sales people who don't know much about that camcorder. I will know that in a few weeks.

Any possibility of a cache record buffer in firmware update?

Any possibility for software that will rewrap the XDCAM EX files so they can be burned to Blu-ray without re-compression? The 2 Pass VBR 35mbps falls within Blu-ray spec.

Why the heck does the Push Auto Focus work the way it does (hunts after releasing)? Was there a reason to do that rather than work they way most other cameras (even Sony) work? Maybe there's some kind of purpose or use for that we're not thinking of.

Any possibility for an Express Card to PCIe reader for Desktop computers (Mac and Windows) rather than USB (YUCK!)? I want the speed of xfer on desktop.

Sony, please post representations of the all the matrix and gamma curves with chart/scope examples on their site! (BTW I told this to Juan Martinez already a few months back).

I'd like to know when Sony will properly stock the shelves of their distributors with the accessories for this camera.

I've been trying to buy a SxS card reader since the day I bought the camera...no luck. I've been talking to a sales guy at a DVinfo sponsor and they've been back-ordered for months. Seems like it would be a heck of a lot easier to manufacture the card reader than the camera so why are there so few?

I'd like to know when Sony will properly stock the shelves of their distributors with the accessories for this camera.

I've been trying to buy a SxS card reader since the day I bought the camera...no luck. I've been talking to a sales guy at a DVinfo sponsor and they've been back-ordered for months. Seems like it would be a heck of a lot easier to manufacture the card reader than the camera so why are there so few?

My local dealer in tokyo has some of these card readers. Do you want me to find out about how you can order one from them?

Dear Sony,

I paid you over $6,600 for my camera. Why on earth does it only perform on par with a $13,200 camera, rather than a $132,000 camera?

----

No, I really do understand that some of the issues users are experiencing are serious and significant (particularly the vignette and backfocus problems), but let's keep in mind that Sony has broken through just about every price / performance ratio that existed in the past. 1/2" chips... true 1920x1080 sensors, 23.976p performance, over/under cranking, tapeless workflow, true manual focus lens, the list goes on and on.

Sony should deal with the real issues relating to quality control and some of the fundamentals of the camera design, but those of us who have bought this camera have purchased amazing value for what we paid. We didn't by an F23, or even an F350. We didn't buy a Red. We paid less than $10,000 for a full camera system, including an amazing LCD screen and high-quality HD lens.

So here's my number 11: How do you get away with charging so little?

I Semi-Agree with you on that. I don't agree with people complaining about buttons, design, balance and what not, but vignetting and backfocus issues are unacceptable at any price range. Whether buying a $250 Canon from BestBuy to a a 200k f-23 those 2 problems are just unacceptable and I would never suck it up and say "eh it was only 7k so I should expect vignetting and focus issues"

The camera is stunning, the picture quality is fantastic and the features are great. It's only shortcomings so far are the rolling shutter but I don,t plan on shooting squad cars with strobe lights and a bunch of paparazzi shooting britney spears on sunset blvd. I'm going to take advantage of the features it does have and what it can do and not worry about what it can't do.

My local dealer in tokyo has some of these card readers. Do you want me to find out about how you can order one from them?

That would be great Alexander...you can PM me with that info.

Thanks

I Semi-Agree with you on that. I don't agree with people complaining about buttons, design, balance and what not, but vignetting and backfocus issues are unacceptable at any price range. Whether buying a $250 Canon from BestBuy to a a 200k f-23 those 2 problems are just unacceptable and I would never suck it up and say "eh it was only 7k so I should expect vignetting and focus issues"

The camera is stunning, the picture quality is fantastic and the features are great. It's only shortcomings so far are the rolling shutter but I don,t plan on shooting squad cars with strobe lights and a bunch of paparazzi shooting britney spears on sunset blvd. I'm going to take advantage of the features it does have and what it can do and not worry about what it can't do.

Voila, you said it all. I agree with Jon that nobody should exept the camera to give the same images as a camera costing ten times as much, but if you look at this complete thread, NOBODY DOES.
To the contrary: everyone says the image quality is perfect, but there are severe issues with the camera, that can't be tolerated for a camera that's used for professional work. Almost every complaint in this thread is geared towards those issues, and not about button placement and such.

Looking at the Sony EX1 board as a whole i'm just glad i got my camera when i did or else i think seeing all these issues raised would have left me in serious doubt. Nearly every thread is a complaint or gripe and hey that's fair enough if a product does'nt do what it says it can, it's only right after spending x amount of £/$ we are entitled to air some concerns.

However i know what its like when trying to decide what camera to spend your hard earned cash on, so i would just like to remind anyone out there thinking about buying this cam that it is a fantastic piece of equipment and if your serous about filming (not about searching for mathematical problems) then you wont be dissapointed. Also i think the reasons for so many issues being raised is because of the high level of the camera and thus presenting so many more things to get used to, if you don't believe me just ask anyone about the million and one concerns they had when they first got their hands on a Sony F900. Bottom line is, sub 10k this is the camera to get if beautiful images, verastile features and a complete package is what matters to you most.

Some examine, some debate and some shoot. All are important to make progress and learn but when the first 2 take preference over the third then maybe those people should be working for Sony rather than purchasing their products.

Back to topic:

#12: Why can't you let the battery in the camcorder without discharging?

Back to topic:

#12: Why can't you let the battery in the camcorder without discharging?

Did you read the instructions that came with the battery.
Then how else are you going to discharge the battery.
I was surprised when I read Sony's instructions on how to care for the battery and thought hello, this is something new but not so it seems. They've always recommended not storing a fully charged battery for more than a day.
Of course I'm only guessing this is the reason the camera discharges the battery. It is very convenient that it does, maybe it's just a coincidence.

#13

Can Sony officially (or even offically) confirm that 10-bit is indeed the bit depth out of the HD-SDI port live? Please!

(Thanks for making this list!!)

Here’s a question I would ask.
Is the “Sony” PS3 ever going to be compatible with files from the “Sony” EX1 and if yes, when can we expect the update?

An extension of Paulo's question. When is Sony going to come out with a rewrap utility so the 2 Pass VBR 35mbps files can be burned to Blu-ray without reencoding. Sony's Juan Martinez said the file's essence is compatible with Blu-ray spec.

Ask when will vegas work with the raw files,no need for rewrapping.

First of all, the backfocus issue. I have performed the FB adjust (once for every setting of the ND filter), but I am still not convinced. Also, it won't be a bad idea to refine the auto adjust process, now it performs the FB only at the widest position of the zoom, maybe it will work best by measuring it also in the middle of the zoom range, or in the 1/3 and 2/3 of it.

Also I would like a refinement of the CA correction. My EX performs well, without any trace of Chromatic Aberration... up to the 40 mm zoom position. Beyond that, the CA becomes noticeable, and it is unacceptable to me at the top end of the zoom. So a refinement on the CA correction would also be great, by making it dependent on the zoom position.

It will also be great to make the menus with no delays, for example, when you change the PP with the direct menu, the camera displays "PPx selected" (or something like that), and there's a lapse of two or tree seconds that it won't react to the select button to change another setting. When you must change settings quickly in a shot and fast run situation, it can make you loose a good shot.

May I suggest something else? Is it possible for whoever is going to NAB to pop along to the major NLE stands and discuss the HD to SD conversion problems? Maybe one can take a DVD full of video clips shot in different quality and have a go there and then. I'm thinking especially of Adobe Premiere and FCP.

Ideally the best test would be to do a side by side shoot, for example an EX1 set on HDV mode and a Z1 and taking both clips to the stand and see the end result. Maybe some NLE wizz kid can shed some light as to why EX1 footage is causing us some problems in software conversion.

i think descending en masse would be a bad idea! Like the village heading towards Castle Frankenstein with pitchforks!!

Yep, lots of people have faults on their cameras and that really sucks. That is what needs to be sorted out asap. Other things like wish lists for firmware, that will just come in time.

... Maybe some NLE wizz kid can shed some light as to why EX1 footage is causing us some problems in software conversion.

I absolutely agree with that. Someone should release some kind of software (a plugin/filter for our favorite NLE will be great, though it should be implemented inside of the NLE, and not be just an add-on) to correctly perform downconversion from HD to PAL or NTSC. And that has anything to do with the EX1, the camera does his job of producing SHARP images very well, it's just that the footage is not correctly downconverted by the NLEs. I don't understand why when I put 720p50 footage on a PAL timeline in my NLE it just drops every other frame and transforms it to 25p instead of 50i... And why hasn't anyone implemented by software the same solution that has been used for years in CCD cameras (two-line averaging to reduce aliasing and twitter effects)? The answers to our problems are well known from a long time ago, but...

Sometimes I feel like the guys who made these programs have absolutely no idea of how interlaced video works, they don't realize that interlaced frames are NOT a single frame, but two fields separate in time and shifted spatially. They should read some good books about how television and video technology work, and they will clearly see what they're not doing well.

I know I've gone off-topic, but I had to say that.

I don't understand why when I put 720p50 footage on a PAL timeline in my NLE it just drops every other frame and transforms it to 25p instead of 50i...

Are you perchance using a certain Mac based NLE beginning with 'F'?

My only 'secret sauce' way of getting the equivalent of Standard Definition EX-1 in interlaced PAL is to put the final edit (at ProRez 720p50) through After Effects to reinterlace, which feels like doing the school run in a digger but it does make fabulous SD.

I put the interlaced question out to a few experts and got no better than the above. Apparently Vegas will reinterlace, but is PC only. I looked into Mac solutions including JES deinterlacer (which has a re-interlace option), Compressor (doesn't reinterlace unless anyone knows better), Episode, Squeeze, Quicktime Player Pro, et seq. Nothing yet.

Trouble is, as my AE solution works, I can't allow myself the time to go Skunkworks again until I either hit a pain barrier (e.g. when I upgrade from Tiger and my senescent After Effects 6.0 fails) or I get some spare time (August?).

If given the opportunity to raise this with the FCP team, I think what we have here is what Apple calls 'An Excellent Third Party Opportunity' (which sounds better than '... yeah, whatever'). What the US Developer community may fail to recognise is that most of Europe's going 16:9 at SD as it's 'Good Enough' (no drop frame or pull-down, no colour drifts, 4:2:0 DV to 4:2:0 DVD, 20% higher rez than NTSC) so we're stuck with SD for a while yet. And that means making 720p50 into SD50i.

Other questions for Sony:

Why do camera's have to be sent to Sony for firmwares?
Why can't they make it available so users can do it themselves, instead of having their camera lost for another week at least... ?

And what do you gain by having newer firmware?
Do you need newer firmware versions, if you have an old one, but aren't experiencing any backfocus problems or vignetting issues?

Other questions for Sony:

Why do camera's have to be sent to Sony for firmwares?
Why can't they make it available so users can't do it themselves, instead of being their camera lost for another week at least... ?

And what do you gain by having newer firmware?
Do you need newer firmware versions, if you have an old one, but aren't experiencing any backfocus problems or vignetting issues?

cameras can be firmware updated yourself through the USB, when the firmware comes out....

cameras can be firmware updated yourself through the USB, when the firmware comes out....

But I've just read in a thread that someone spoke with a Sony employee who said they aren't planning to make them available, and you should ship your camera back... or is this incorrect?

i was told the opposite of that. When the first firmware update comes out, any day now, we shall see. I doubt Sony will want to deal with the hassle and expenses of this.

It is supposed to be a simple USB interface update program that downloads with the firmware update

i was told the opposite of that. When the first firmware update comes out, any day now, we shall see. I doubt Sony will want to deal with the hassle and expenses of this.

It is supposed to be a simple USB interface update program that downloads with the firmware update

That would be great news. If that's the fact, just ignore my question ;-).

That would be great news. If that's the fact, just ignore my question ;-).

Well, I've got my fingers crossed. ;)

Sony, is safe doing this by providing the discalaimer: In the event of a failure during upgrade, the user will be responsible for all shipping expenses to Sony service.

i think descending en masse would be a bad idea! Like the village heading towards Castle Frankenstein with pitchforks!!

Lol, getting nervous Phil?

Just giving a bump to this thread, in case the people that are going to NAB were forgetting this ;-).

Thanks,

Sittin' out here on the edge of my chair, waiting for a list of answers from the NAB front. --especially Re: firmware update

And I might add, there are some little quirks, but this camera is generally fantastic--the more I use it, the better it works.