I am very sorry folks, but as a rule DV Info Net does not point to third-party petition sites.

The reasons are complex, but in a nutshell it's a matter of precedent -- if I allow one, I really have to allow all, and in the past I have seen some pretty nutty and poorly written "petitions" revolving mostly around unrealistic expectations from camcorder manufacturers.

Clearly this is a different type of issue altogether, and having been to a NANPA national meeting before, I fully support the effort. I am more than willing to expose an online petition to our membership, but the condition for undertaking it is that we need to keep eyeballs on the site. In other words, I'm happy to make DV Info Net a driving force for this matter, provided that the petition is hosted right here -- and not on a third-party "petition" site.

I am not in the business of driving traffic to other sites -- quite the opposite, in fact. We need to bring people in, and we can set it up in such a way that DVi membership is not required. If that's acceptable to you guys, then we can proceed with this (in a new thread, obviously). Hope this helps,

Chris,
Thanks for the response. Anything you can do to help would be appreciated. We'd obviously love it if DVInfo could host a petition here instead. What do we need to do?

It looks like we'll be able to manage an online petition using the Articles side of the site, not the forum. The benefit is that no forum registration process is required. I'll put it in work, and will contact Alex when we're ready to put in the text of the petition.

As always, I have lots of irons in the fire currently, so please keep on me via email. I'll try to have it ready by Monday morning, if that's not too far away for you.

Monday would be fantastic. Thanks so much for your support, Chris!

In case anyone is wondering, I'm still waiting to hear from Chris. I'm sure he's plenty busy at the moment, so I'm going to wait a little longer before sending another email. Thanks again for your support!

Alex, any update on this?

Sorry for the delay folks, I have had an update from Chris. He told me he's been out of town but is installing the software and will update me on it very soon. Thanks for your patience! Lets keep this with DVINfo in every way we can.

Any update on this?

The petition feature is in place on the articles side of the site. I just have to finalize the verbiage and test it to make sure the email confirmation process is working. Should have it ready later today. Will post the link here.

Chris, just to be sure, are you waiting on me for verbage, or do you have what you need from me end? Thanks!

Haven't heard from Chris in a while. I imagine he's busy gearing up for the PMA/CES show. In the meantime, I thought I'd make sure that I'm not dropping the ball here, so I figured I'd post a little bump to indicate my readiness to help in any way I can. Thanks Chris, et al.

Or just keep promotion the petition that is already online.
People were off work for the holidays surfing the net so I think a critical time has passed already for reaching a lot of people quickly.

It's a new year. I'm going back to pushing the existing petition or this is never going to happen.

Agreed, Kevin. I've been trying to push it again via Twitter, Facebook, etc. Unfortunately, we can't push it here since it links to an outside site. I don't know what happened to the petition on DVInfo. Haven't heard back from Chris in a while now. I imagine he just got busy. It happens. Thanks for your support!

Kevin, is it the same one I already signed? How discussing it in other forums such Away from home and UWOL challenge. I am sure there are lots of others out there that would be interested in signing it. Bob

Yep Bob, same one.
We just need to find a way for people to find it since we can't link to it here.
Maybe I can write up a post about what we're trying to do on my blog or something and I can include a link there.

Haven't forgotten you. It's been a rocky start to the new year (out of town trips plus recent forum tech drama w/ DNS, email, etc.) but I'll make this a priority and get it done before our next newsletter mailout.

That would be most awesome Chris.
I feel like we're just spinning our wheels trying to get this law passed and the longer it takes, the harder it is going to be to get congress to change the law.

Seconded. That would be wonderful, Chris. I spent time on the phone with Senator Lee's office again today. They're still very encouraging, and suggested that I should be contacting local film festivals to gather support and also contact my State Representatives and urge them to pass a measure of support. (no binding verbage, but can be powerful in it's own right for getting something done nationally) I'd suggest that everyone here who is interested pursue the same courses.

Please everyone, start pushing the original petition to get this law changed!!
I can't post the link here but do a Google search for Allow Professional Videography on Public Lands

This needs to get going. We've pussyfooted around too long waiting for this to go up here.
I received an email from a person who had Yellowstone contact him AFTER he released a film saying he needed to obtain a permit for future projects. So Yellowstone is actively looking to nail people by searching for people who filmed in the park. Here's part of their email:

" I was approached by the Yellowstone film office months after releasing a
personal project video of Yellowstone telling me I needed to obtain a
permit for future videos. I have since received a $200 filming permit
for Yellowstone, but I am upset because it says I can't record
anything in thermal areas without a monitor for $65/hr."

The guy is a photographer who happened to shoot some video and now he's on Yellowstone's radar.
This is just going to get worse if the law isn't changed.
Here's the video they made:
http://www.caublephotography.com/video.html

So please, nature and wildlife filmmakers are a small niche, we need everyone to go to the petition, sign it and get everyone they know to sign it who is a filmmaker as well.

Allow Professional Videography on Public Lands Signer #130.

Thanks!
I wonder how many signatures we need to make this a go?

I just invited my friends on facebook to sign the petition.

Pat

Thanks guys. Guess I'd better give an update too. The wheels are turning slowly, but they're turning. I actually was at the Utah state GOP convention yesterday (guess everyone knows something about me poltically, now. . . I'm a state delegate this year). Over the last week, I've had some good one-on-one time with both Senator's Hatch and Lee, and a few members of the House. I've given all of them copies of the letter and asked them point blank if they'd not only support the change, but if they'd help put it through, and I'm getting affirmative responses from all of them. None of them, however, felt like it had a great chance of going through before the elections in November, at which point Senator Lee's office will be including it in another bill. He knows about the petition and will be watching it (thanks Kevin), and he both sits on the natural resources committee in the Senate and represent Utah, which is 67% federally owned (a fact that bothers a LOT of Utahns), so we have a very good case with him. Thanks for keeping this alive, folks. P.S. They've contacted NANPA (North American Nature Photographers Association) and they have indicated that they'll publicly support the change.

Good to hear Alex.
I mean if Yellowstone is actively trying to track people down on the internet by looking for video they've taken and then seeing if they had a permit, that's going to far.

We should be treated the same as professional photographers. A professional photographer can photograph all they want for profit without a permit and without an escort. But they flip the switch to shoot video and now they need to shell out $200 get a liability policy and pay $65 an hour to have a ranger escort.

Kevin, I'd love more details if the person who experienced that story would be willing to share them with me. I think an example like that could really help to galvanize opinion when I approach legislators. If it's acceptable to your source, could you PM me some more info. through DVInfo here? Thanks!

I have followed this thread from the beginning, but find this latest development to be the most disturbing of all (coming after the photographer about the video after the fact). I have signed the petition and hope that many others do also and thank those that have expended so much effort on contacting officials, etc. in hopes of changing this situation.

I'm going to talk to him tomorrow so I'll tell him you'd like to get the specifics from him.

Willard. Yeah, that's pretty bad if the park is stalking people after the fact about getting a permit etc.
Yellowstone has always been the one park that really goes out of their way to keep people from filming there.

you got my name on it...

I was talking to Christopher Cauble, the guy that Yellowstone contacted about needing a permit after they found his footage online and he brought up an excellent point that I think really shows why we ned the laws changed.

"The fact that it is illegal to take a video of
Old Faithful from your iphone and publish it to your blog is absurd!"

I mean think about that.

"The fact that it is illegal to take a video of Old Faithful from your iphone and publish it to your blog is absurd!"

Did Christopher say what the penalty is for filming Old Faithful with an iPhone without a permit?

If the law were uniformly enforced, I think more people would be busying getting it changed. It appears to me that photography and videography are ideal ways of appreciating natural landscapes. I think these activities also help to prevent exploitation by publicly documenting the current environmental condition of the park.

It depends on what the judge decides. Not sure what the max is but I know people have been both fined as well as banned from the park.

The law only effects video and filmmaking. Photographers were smart and lobbied for an exemption before the original law was passed. So you can stand next to someone taking pictures for National Geographic magazine, they can shoot all they want but you need a permit and possible a ranger escort.

I'll see if I can do some more research on what the max penalties are.

Kevin, Thanks for all the information you've passed to me. I believe that if you're caught in the park, your equipment is confiscated. Beyond that, I'm not sure. I know Yellowstone has been among the most heavy-handed, but I had to "hire" a ranger escort in Grand Canyon (North Rim) as well. $65/hr, which is exactly what I charge for my time. Doesn't take an accountant to crunch the numbers there.
P.S. Just checked out your website. Looks like we know some of the same people. Jay Diest?

The best I can determine from reviewing the Code of Federal Regulations Title 36, the maximum penalty if found guilty is $5,000 or imprisonment for 6 months or both as well as payment of court costs. Different penalties my apply at National Military parks and battlefields. There is no mention made of confiscation of personal property.

We're up to 148 people signed on the petition. I sent out another round of Tweets, Google+ and will send out some posts on FB later today.

Keep sending it out to people.
Just search for Allow Professional Videography on Public Lands to find the petition and pass it on to everyone you know.
Nature and wildlife filmmakers is a small niche. We're not going to get tens of thousands of signatures. So every one counts.

Sounds great. I'll do another round too. Thanks!

149. Who is going to be 150?
Not sure how many we need to make a difference but 150 doesn't sound like very much.

Kevin,

May I use parts of your letter posted on your blog to Sen. Lee to craft my own letter to my lawmakers here in California? Mostly want to use the facts you lay out and your proposals. I'll tailor it to my location and specifics.

Thanks.

Sure David. Are you talking my blog or Alex's though? :)
Alex is the one that started the petition. I just wrote a blog about are you filming illegally in our national parks.
But if you're talking about anything I wrote of course you can use it any way you see fit to try and get the law changed to allow us to film on public lands.

Just to be thorough, if David is referring to my stuff, he's also welcome. In other news, I had a good day today. My latest Facebook blast garnered a response from a gentleman in Kanab, UT who has something to do with the film industry over there. (Kanab used to be something of a Mecca for western movies) He forwarded my petition, etc. to the Utah State Film Commissioner (Marshall Moore) who called him back and indicated his support. We're going to have a conference call with Senator Lee after congress re-convenes to hammer out language for the legislation.

Sorry! Yes, meant Alex!

Canon is adding a video workshop sessions to their presentation at the National Parks this year, maybe they could help with the legislation. Especially if somebody from Canon got fined for not having the correct permit!

LAKE SUCCESS, N.Y., June 4, 2012 – Canon U.S.A. Inc., a leader in digital imaging solutions, is once again joining forces with several of the country’s acclaimed national parks to offer free photography workshops to visitors this summer. The Canon Photography in the Parks Program provides participants with free equipment loans and professional photography instruction as they take part in a guided walking photo tour. Following the tour, participants have the opportunity to print images for free and take home a CD of their image files. Visitors of all ages and experience levels are welcome to participate.

New to this year’s program are Canon video workshop sessions. Visitors can experience and learn about shooting video by using a Canon VIXIA camcorder or EOS digital SLR camera and participating in a hands-on videography demonstration with experts.

“Canon is incredibly excited to help people improve their photography skills and capture the beauty of our national parks through our Photography in the Parks Program,” said Yuichi Ishizuka, executive vice president and general manager, Imaging Technologies & Communications Group, Canon U.S.A. “Our nation’s magnificent and pristine national parks offer the quintessential location to help people improve their photography skills and inspire creativity. In doing so, Canon hopes to also help those who visit parks this summer create and preserve lasting memories and leverage their newfound skills throughout their lives, for all of their important moments.”

In addition, Canon is sponsoring the new National Geographic iPhone application, National Parks by National Geographic. Available as a free download from Apple’s App Store, the app provides users with park information and photo galleries, travel tips from National Geographic editors, and information about park events – including the Canon Photography in the Parks Program. The app also features photo tips to help users capture beautiful photography throughout their summer travels.

The Canon Photography in the Parks Program will take place at various dates through the summer at the following national parks:

Grand Canyon: May 31 – June 20
Zion: June 24 – July 9
Yosemite: July 13 – July 17
Yellowstone: July 23 – July 31
Grand Teton: August 1 – August 2
Rocky Mountain: August 5 – August 11
Acadia: August 18 – August 29

Just a note, for what it's worth. I am in Denali National Park right now. My wife and I used the shuttle bus system to travel out into the park for about 9 hours. While the bus drivers are not rangers, we did pass several park rangers and none of them paid the least bit of attention to my EX1r. I didn't use n external mic and my tripod was a basic Manfrotto with a 701HDV head. (Trying to find a middle between low weight and usefulness. The 701HDV worked quite well under the circumstances.)

I know that didn't look like a commercial videographer at all, but I was afraid an overzealous young ranger might think so and become concerned that I was. I was tried to be aware of any "looks" that rangers might give to my equipment, but no one did. (Of course, all the other tourists were staring at it a lot. Sometimes it's nice when people tend t defer prime filming spots to you just because you look professional even if you're just on vacation same as them.)

As far as the camera's usefulness here, it seemed that I made the right choice in bringing it instead of a smaller consumer camcorder. Despite not being able to get off the bus when we spotted wildlife, I was able to get some decently steady handheld shots. I'll know more later this evening when I look at the shots on my laptop.

Weather permitting, tomorrow we are planning to get off the bus and do some more serious filming. While the drivers won't let you off when wildlife is spotted, they will take you about 1/2 mile down the road and you can walk back. Obviously, we won't be trying to get too close to grizzlies, but a filming a bear from 300m away will look infinitely better using a tripod!

Phil

Well at least Yellowstone is getting better at spelling it out that if you shoot video or record audio for ANYTHING other than vacation video you need a permit:
"Film And News Crews Capturing Yellowstone May Require A Permit

Film and video crews and news reporters wishing to capture the sounds and imagery of Yellowstone this year are reminded to review permitting regulations before setting up their tripods inside the park.

If you're simply shooting home photos and videos for fun, you need not worry about obtaining a permit. However, federal regulations and National Park Service (NPS) policies do place some restrictions on film and media activities due to concerns over visitor safety and impacts on fragile park resources:

Film and Video Crews: As a general rule, a film permit is required for any individual, business, group, organization or institution that may be paid, reimbursed, or provided any measure of financial or in-kind support for any costs associated with an audio, film, or video produced within Yellowstone National Park. This applies not only to those shooting feature films, but those who capture audio, film or video footage for school projects, documentaries, product demonstrations, Web sites or training films."

Oh, and if you've never applied for a permit to shoot in Yellowstone wait till you see how much it's going to cost you in ranger escort fees! $65 an hour to have a ranger stand next to you on a boardwalk while a pro still photographer shoots for free right next to you with the same tripod because you're is a tripping hazard and somehow theirs is not.

This is just such complete and total b...s..., and it gets thicker with each post. I regularly get membership request mail from a non-profit group called the National Parks Conservation Association.
The last time I sent the pledge card back with a note about this problem. Most likely opened by someone in India, but it was the best I could do.

I wonder what sort of pressure a group like that could put on the Feds.

Since more and more filmmakers are using DSLR's to film on Federal land, I wonder how soon it will be before they start going after still photographers?

The biggest problem I see is that nature and wildlife filmmakers are a much smaller niche than photographers. We don't have the numbers to really be effective to make a difference. I think it will only change once they start going after photographers for permits and ranger escort fees.

I don't think they will go after photographers. The photography special interest groups are by far much more organized and represented. Fact is many camera manufacturers have supported and partnered with the national parks for years. In other words it is not wise to bite the hand that feeds you. Professional video represents such a small niche as illustrated by this thread and the low number of signatures on the petition that I don't think we stand a chance.

I was really disappointed that dvinfo.net did not take a stand officially on this and become an advocate for us after the promise was made that "I'm happy to make DV Info Net a driving force for this matter" back on page 11 of this thread. Nothing since. I feel really let down.

I think the parks solution is what we are already seeing even if you shoot with a DSLR. They will have people scouring the Internet looking for footage shot in Yellowstone and other Federal lands and come after filmmakers after the fact. So even if you are able to slip under the radar by shooting with a DSLR, they'll come after you after the fact and find some way to show that the footage is recent and you didn't have a permit.

The one good thing about this is that I have discovered so many state parks and other non-Federal land to film on. These are areas where there's not been a lot of coverage and I really enjoy filming in these smaller much lower trafficked areas.

I just read that the month of June Yellowstone had like 675,000 visitors. I can count the number of people I've seen in one of my state parks on one hand. I often have the whole area to myself. Sure there's no grizzly bears, mountain lions or geysers but I have access to nature like I think it should be. No huge crowds and traffic jams, no rangers harassing you, just me an my thoughts and my eyes being opened to the little things that Yellowstone forgets.

I don't worry about the petition ever getting on here, that's why I periodically just tell people to do a search for it. The people on here that want to sign it have already signed it and what's the point of driving people here when we already have a petition elsewhere.

Would have been better to have it here at one point but I think that point is long gone and I'm looking for other avenues to get signatures.

Oh and I did a keyword search for nature filmmakers with KeywordXP and came up with 31,400 hits a month.
There has to be a way to get that many people organized to sign the petition.

Kevin, I have also found other, less visited areas to video in. Over the last few years I have been visiting National Wildlife Refuges all over the southeast. I was very surprised at how many there are and how accessible. There are several within a few hours of Atlanta. No crowds, no rangers, no fees, just lots of nature, pure nature and time to set up tripods and video to your hearts content. Bob