Is it possible to successfully use the new SR-11 with a mac? My father is in the market to buy a camera within the next couple days, and we are trying to decide if it makes the most sense to buy the SR-11 or to go with our initial choice, the HV30.

Import, editing and export will all be done exclusively on macs, I myself will be using(aka learning) Final Cut Studio 2, and my folks will most likely be utilizing iMovie '08.

My dad was at bestbuy looking at cameras, and the young kid helping him out told him that Sony cameras will absolutely not work with a mac, and he would only be able to use Canon, JVC, and a couple Panasonic models. The catch was, while they had the HV30 there and in stock, he told him not to buy it because HDV would be dead by next year.

Personally I disagree with a statement like that, because plenty of people are still going to use HDV, its like when we all switched to digital cameras, it didn't kill off film one bit.

So I guess the million dollar question for me right now is: Will the SR11/12 cameras work with FCS and iMovie? And which would make more sense to buy, the HV30 or the SR11?

Thanks so much!

- Abram

There were rumours that you couldn't use the CX7 with Mac, but I've seen people saying they have it working. SO I'm going to say it may be possible.

Based on what I know of the AVCHD file system there are some potential issues with a 2GB file size (larger clips are split at that point, and must be "stitched" back together). This is where I would expect you might hit a snag w/ mac, as the Sony Picture Motion Browser software is I believe PC only - anyone with Mac that can confirm that? If you have access to a PC to transfer files, I don't see any issues with editing on a Mac.

Smaller clips should be drag and drop IF the computer can see the camera. There's a command line workaround that may work to join the clips, but not sure if there is a mac equivalent and haven't actually tested it with files from the CX7 - will have to try it sometime out of curiousity!

Not saying it's not possible, just saying it may take some research and creativity. Reports so far on the SR11 indicate it might be worth the effort.

I doubt tape will be "dead" next year, no matter how eager your blue shirted sales dude was...

While the HC9 is an "updated" HC7, it's got more under the hood than I expected with some good improvements in low light. I presume the HV30 is also a decent step up from the HV20. Sure AVCHD is where all the "excitement" is, but tape still has a place, The HC9 looks like it's selling well, and I'm sure the HV30 will be a mover - as long as there's a market, tape will be around.


You metioned in another thread "dual mode" recording - I believe you can assign stills and video to HDD or MS Duo, not sure you can assign to BOTH simultaneously - doesn't appear so from the manual, it's one or the other. Again from the manual it appears you can dub from the HDD to the MS Duo.

The SR11/12 has really just hit the street, so it's pretty early to know technical details with great certainty, but hopefully this will help you know what questions to ask. I suspect the SR11/12 is worth figuring out the answers before making the final decision.

Will BB give you return privleges? Get the SR and try it with your Mac?

I'll have to ask and try it out, but I can tell you one thing for sure. If it's going to be complicated my dad is not going to want it. He doesn't like complicated devices or setups, I know this for sure, I myself don't mind messing with settings and tweaking things here and there to get the results I want, it comes naturally from being a photographer.

I would love to hear from anyone using the SR11 with a mac to hear how it has been going for you.

ps- about my question with dual mode recording, I wasn't meaning it to be simultaneous recording, but merely having the option to record to memory sticks once the HDD is full and I've not had the chance to download the footage yet. I'm assuming that will work?

The SR11 will record to the HDD OR the memory Stick and has the ability to transfer from the HDD to memory Stick video or stills.. Setup operation are the menu for media.

Ron Evans

Hi Abram -
ALL technology is complicated... It's not complicated once you've got it working <wink>. I see someone using a Mac with the Canon AVCHD (HF10) cam - I don't think theres' going to be a problem with files under 2g in size (approx 15-17 minutes in highest quality, not an issue for 90%+ of the average shooting situation). If the Mac can "see" the cam, just drag the .MTS files, not a big deal.

Try conneccting the USB - if the cam is visible and you can see the files, you're good to go unless you NEED long clips, in which case you may have to find a way to stitch them together on a Mac (PMB software does it on the PC).

Other than event shooting, I'll venture to say 99.9% of users won't ever run over the 2G limit... it's just that the issue has come up here and elsewhere, so best to give you full information if possible.

I'll go out on a limb and surmise that mac has an equivalent command prompt method to stitch the files together correctly (which apparently is needed with Canon - the included software reportedly glitches the seam).

Losing tape is up to you - I've still got a pile of tapes, so have to have an HDV cam around, and the HC9 was a pleasant suprise, it's a very good cam with pretty good manual control. I'll still grab the CX7 most times though...

Hi there,
Quick question - - can you corroborate the fact that the SR12 has a mic input? One of the biggies for me is that I want to plug an external mic into one of these little cameras... and many of them no longer have the mic input to allow for this.
I'm posting this question on this Mac-related thread, because I use a Mac... That's my next big question: compatibility.
Cheers,
Malcolm

Malcolm, yes it does, both a mike input and headphone output on the SR12.

Thank you Ken... I'll now check into questions of compatibility. This little camera records onto an internal hard drive and a flash card, is that right? Would the file type be exactly the same on each? (both AVCHD, I guess, but are they identical file types?). I ask because I'm going to end up importing into Avid Xpress Pro (on a Mac), and I'd love to know what hoops I'm going to have to go through to do this, and what the end product will look like.
My big camera is going to be a Sony (EX1), and I've been having to wait quite a while for Sony and Avid work together (on a PC, it's fine, but not so on a Mac; updates are finally supposed to happen next month)... I don't want to get caught with a second camera that causes problems, if I can help it.
A fellow at the camera store is urging me to get a Canon HV-20 as my second camera, but I really want to dispense with tape! He says that AVCHD doesn't compare in quality, and he's especially harsh on the hard-drive models...
The fact that the SR12 also records onto flash cards might help, though.
Any thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Malcolm

Malcolm, I think there's still a lot of AVCHD negative bias out there...I was guilty of the same until just recently. But people really need to compare the picture quality of the latest AVCHD cams and come to their own conclusion. Things have changed dramatically and to say that AVCHD in the newest cams 'doesn't compare in quality' to HDV, is just plain wrong as far as I'm concerned. It was true in the past, but not today.

Since I own an HV20, it's easy for me to compare the two and the Sony does a fabulous job in this comparison. Color quality is a somewhat subjective thing and the Sony tends to be a bit warmer and the Canon a bit cooler. Noise is extremely low on the Sony and IMO, lower than the HV20. Sharpness and resolution appear to be very close to my eyes. In some scenes it seems the Sony is a bit sharper and in others the Canon. But they are really close and some of the observable differences may be partially the result of exposure.

Comparing the two, the Sony presents a different picture...almost a bit 'tighter' and a bit more professional looking to my eyes...kind of a more 'relaxed' picture if that makes any sense. The Canon, although still an incredible picture, is unquestionably brighter. So it may come down to individual preference.

But one thing is for sure IMO, nobody can any longer dismiss the AVCHD cams as 'inferior'.

To answer your question on files, yes, they are indentical whether recording to the hard drive or to the memory media.

Sorry to yell, just trust me on this. Do NOT buy any consumer product from Sony and expect it to work well on a mac. I am ripping my hair out trying to work with a client's HDR-SR7 and it is nothing short of a nightmare. Just get an HDV camera that records to tape. I know it's old school, but it works great and you'll always have the backup. This AVCHD format is NOT reliable enough to work well with a mac.

Canon HV30 all the way. I have the HV20. Never had a single problem with it.

david.

But one thing is for sure IMO, nobody can any longer dismiss the AVCHD cams as 'inferior'.



HI, it's inferior. In a huge way. It's biggest problem is how it works with macs - i have no opinion about anything to do with these cameras and windows. You need an exact and precise directory structure for it to even 'see' the camera. The native file format it records to - ".mts" is totally useless on a mac and must be transcoded. The ONLY way to transcode them quickly is through FCP or iMovie, and that's only if these programs 'see' the camera (I am dealing with a client's HDR-SR7 right now, and it would NOT recognize the camera, even though it should have. I had to re-format the drive to get it to work). Now I'm stuck with hours of .mts files that i can NOT natively work with on a mac. The ONLY option is to use a program called Voltaic and that takes about 12X the original time of the clip. So, an hour worth of video takes 12 hours to transcode.

Who needs all this hassle?

AVCHD for mac is like just asking for an ulcer.

HDV, although it too has some issues, works extremely well and imports beautifully with Apple's HDV-ProRes 422 option. I work with it on a JVS HD100 camera and the Canon HV20 as well. It's awesome.

david.

Sorry to yell, just trust me on this. Do NOT buy any consumer product from Sony and expect it to work well on a mac. I am ripping my hair out trying to work with a client's HDR-SR7 and it is nothing short of a nightmare. Just get an HDV camera that records to tape. I know it's old school, but it works great and you'll always have the backup. This AVCHD format is NOT reliable enough to work well with a mac.

Canon HV30 all the way. I have the HV20. Never had a single problem with it.

david.

No problem on a PC with the Sony Dave. Works fine in the PC environment and it's a superb camera. But the HV20 is also a great cam and I'm sure the HV30 is too.

HI, it's inferior. In a huge way. It's biggest problem is how it works with macs - i have no opinion about anything to do with these cameras and windows. You need an exact and precise directory structure for it to even 'see' the camera. The native file format it records to - ".mts" is totally useless on a mac and must be transcoded. The ONLY way to transcode them quickly is through FCP or iMovie, and that's only if these programs 'see' the camera (I am dealing with a client's HDR-SR7 right now, and it would NOT recognize the camera, even though it should have. I had to re-format the drive to get it to work). Now I'm stuck with hours of .mts files that i can NOT natively work with on a mac. The ONLY option is to use a program called Voltaic and that takes about 12X the original time of the clip. So, an hour worth of video takes 12 hours to transcode.

Who needs all this hassle?

AVCHD for mac is like just asking for an ulcer.

HDV, although it too has some issues, works extremely well and imports beautifully with Apple's HDV-ProRes 422 option. I work with it on a JVS HD100 camera and the Canon HV20 as well. It's awesome.

david.

Well then it appears the MAC needs to address its own shortcomings in not dealing with the newest technology. If the PC can, I'm sure with a little work Apple can address this. This technology, whether you like it or not Dave, WILL replace tape. It's happening in the professional world too. Based on what I'm seeing with the SR12 (and I'm sure the Canon HF10), I welcome this technology with open arms. Instant access, quick file downloads...nice stuff and a great picture.

Well then it appears the MAC needs to address its own shortcomings in not dealing with the newest technology. .

Hey friend, it's not up to Apple to make Sony's video cameras work with it. In fact, Apple already did add support. Sony does not make Mac compatible consumer products. Their pro-level video stuff is superb - i have nothing against sony or windows for that matter. I'm just saying, this post is about using AVCHD on a MAC, and the verdict is loud and clear for me: do not bother.

This technology, whether you like it or not Dave, WILL replace tape. It's happening in the professional world too.

Oh I agree, I'm not arguing we should all be using tape, I'm saying that AVCHD is a terrible format for working on a mac. That's all.

Didn't mean to offend you or your choice - as you say, it's a great camera for windows users. But this thread is about AVCHD and Mac.

Anyway HDV works great on a mac, and therefore, is the better format (even though it's tape-based). I have no opinion about any other HDD recording camera or format - my only experience is with Sony and AVCHD and it's just terrible.

Hey friend, it's not up to Apple to make Sony's video cameras work with it. In fact, Apple already did add support. Sony does not make Mac compatible consumer products. Their pro-level video stuff is superb - i have nothing against sony or windows for that matter. I'm just saying, this post is about using AVCHD on a MAC, and the verdict is loud and clear for me: do not bother.

That's fine Dave, but please do not condemn the entire AVCHD world because one brand doesn't work on a Mac.

OK, I see you did do that in your next post. Thanks.

Dave, does Canon's AVCHD work on a Mac?

That's fine Dave, but please do not condemn the entire AVCHD world because one brand doesn't work on a Mac.

OK, I see you did do that in your next post. Thanks.

Dave, does Canon's AVCHD work on a Mac?

Hey Ken, I'm sorry, but i really have no idea about any other HDD cameras. I'm just working with a client right now that has a Sony HDR-SR7.

I normally use a JVC HD100 that records to HDV tape, and I have a Canon HV20 as sort of a mini personal camera, also records to HDV tape.

david.

My goodness you guys go to an awful lot of trouble to avoid using a PC that would solve all your problems.

Ron Evans

My goodness you guys go to an awful lot of trouble to avoid using a PC that would solve all your problems.

Ron Evans

Oh, I wouldn't mess with that Ron!!!! :) :)

I've learned to stay away from Mac fans...a very dedicated bunch!

Isn't the Mac mantra "everything you can do I can do better"? <wink>

Seriously, I doubt it will be very long before AVCHD is a simple on Mac as it is on PC - early adopters of AVCHD had lots of things to overcome from all accounts. That's new technology for you...

And along with new technology come a whole lot of "consumer malfunctions" that can create a false impression as new users struggle with something they haven't encountered before and label it unfairly...

I myself struggled with the 2G file break when dealing with long clips while trying out the CX7 (on PC no less). Even Sonys tech people couldn't find an answer. Ultimately, needed the PMB software, which didn't come with the cam I bought used. Sorta silly that you have to have the software to use the camera if you ask me, but I guess that with the early phases of any technology, there have to be "custom" bits of software to interface things together. Now I just accept that the software is a part of the package, and am happy with the overall performance and quality.

I'm sure that Mac users will get the kinks worked ouf soon enough <wink>!

Frankly I don't know why Sony stay with FAT32 file format as being compatible with old machines that would be too slow to process the video files seems a little silly!!!! Since Sony just seem to have software for the PC, NTFS would be a better solution and specify that the OS has to be Win2K, Win XP or Vista and have done with it.
I am not really getting at the MAC group it just seems that even as a hobby I am prepared to get what it takes to do what I want to do. IF that happened to be software on a MAC I'd get a MAC to use it. I have had lots of computers, including MAC's, even made a MAC from my ATARI( think I still have it in the basement somewhere!!!) but at the moment prefer to assemble my own, hence its a PC and have a range of software that covers all I currently want to do. Edius 4.6, Vegas 8/Architect, PPro CS3( with Encore, On Location,Audition), Womble, Ulead Movie Factory 5, Sound Forge 9, TMPGenc Express 4.0, DVDLab 2.0, Sonicfire PRo 4, Neat filter etc

Ron Evans

Edius Pro is, in my opinion, one of the best editing programs out there. It's deep and extremely fast. It's also getting widespread acceptance among HD broadcasters. I've used it for quite awhile and love it.

Yes Edius is my main editor excellent multicam feature and quality codecs,realtime output. I still have DVRaptor RT2 hardware on the PC so can monitor on a NTSC monitor or output DV realtime with hardware acceleration. Sound is usually done in Vegas as this is the easiest to get multitrack control with stereo editing in Sound Forge integrated. Upgraded to CS3 to get Encore for BluRay authoring but really haven't done any yet still prefer DVDLab. At the moment Vegas 8 is the best for integrating AVCHD, HDV and DV on the timeline.

Ron Evans

Well, to keep it in perspective here, this thread was about whether or not to buy a consumer sony camera to operate with the poster's father's mac.

The only experience I've had with a Sony consumer camera is the one I'm having now and it's been a nightmare mostly because it did not work the way it was supposed to. I don't know who to blame for that. I know that when i reformatted the hard drive on the camera, it now works as it should - FCP sees it right away and ingesting and converting clips is easy and quick. The problem with the format, in my opinion, is that a slight variation in the directory structure on the disk makes it invisible to the mac editing applications (and to the camera). And dealing with the raw .mts files is a terribly long process involving third party software.

I'm also kind of old-school in the sense that I like the security of having a tape to go back to - a tape with a continuous time code. I've had three perfectly good hard drives fail in the last year (with different computers) and have been burned by keeping poor and irregular backups. I can't imagine at this point in time moving to an all hard-disk workflow. Maybe when 30TB flash drives are available... haha. I wouldn't trust my originals to today's hard drives - IMO they're just too unreliable.

But, whatever. I know things are moving to tapeless recording and someone will come along and invent a solid, long-term, safe archiving method.

Dave two points here on what you said. Yes I agree that it can be dicey just relying on the internal hard drive for storage, but keep in mind that you can and should back up important footage to your computer anyway. You can also ultimately back it to tape if that's your preference.

Second, remember that the Sonys also record to memory stick with none of the 'crash' concerns of the hard drive. So you have both options and can back both up to another hard drive or ultimately tape if that's your choice.

But you see you did get it working with the Mac as it turned out. It will be interesting to see how the Canons do with the Macs.

Dave, I'm glad you got everything working and I'm sorry you had such a fight in the beginning. My experience has (so far) been the opposite of yours.

I bought an SR7 last fall along with an Intensity card - I was able to do transfer into FCP using ProRes and I did some tests doing live capture through the Intensity. I was lucky to have everything work pretty painlessly.

Further, a couple of weeks ago I bought 2 more SR7s for a last minute 3 camera shoot. I captured an hour of continuous footage on each camera and I was able to transfer all 3 files to my Mac Pro through FCP in ProRes without incident. The only downside is that on my quad 3.0, it took roughly 90 minutes to ingest and transcode each hour (and of course the files were much larger). I was able to sync up the three files and edit everything in multicam mode without a hitch.

I never have had to reformat any of my cameras. They just worked out of the box.

Please understand I'm not trying to pooh-pooh your situation. I have certainly endured many instances of hardware or software refusing to do something correctly and I definitely feel your pain! I just wanted to let you know that now you have gotten things in synch, you should have a good experience.

Why don't you guys use the free "Mpeg Streamclip" utility to transcode the AVCHD files the Sony produces to Mac-friendly files for iMovie or FCP?

It's fast and free- works for me with ANY camera's AVCHD files!!!

Why don't you guys use the free "Mpeg Streamclip" utility to transcode the AVCHD files the Sony produces to Mac-friendly files for iMovie or FCP?

It's fast and free- works for me with ANY camera's AVCHD files!!!

Will the file size be much larger than the original AVCHD file size then?

How much larger would it be?

That's the single beauty of AVCHD- small file size. When converted it will blow up considerably.
HDV is 13Gb/Hr! so Plan accordingly. (If converting to HDV)

I have a HDR-CX7 and use iMovie (Version 7.1.1) or Voltaic to import the AVCHD clips to Apple Intermediate Codec. The new .mov files are about 3 times the file size but can be easily edited in iMovie or FCP with sufficient RAM.

Voltaic is a $20 app. iMovie was free.

I have a HDR-CX7 and use iMovie (Version 7.1.1) or Voltaic to import the AVCHD clips to Apple Intermediate Codec. The new .mov files are about 3 times the file size but can be easily edited in iMovie or FCP with sufficient RAM.

Voltaic is a $20 app. iMovie was free.

Three times the size?

Does that mean an AVCHD-file would be larger than an HDV file?

How long does the conversion of an hour's material approx. take?

By the way: do you have to convert HDV to the Apple Intermediate Codec, too, or can HDV be edited directly?

Yup. Averages 3 times.
e.g. I have One 15 sec clip recorded at highest quality 1080i. The AVCD file is about 30MB. The final .mov file is about 130MB. (ok. thats 4 times).

When you import the AVCHD, you have the option to import at 540,720 or 1080. The 540 setting lowers the file size considerably.

I find Hard Disks really cheap nowadays, so don't mind the larger file sizes at higher quality.

Haven't shot any hour long footage... but i would assume about an hour... which would be the same should you capture from tape... minute for minute.

You can edit HDV directly on Mac, as you would DV.

I would assume AVCHD to be as easy to work with as HDV within the year...
AVCHD cams are popping up everywhere now.

transcoding should equal about a 4X increase in file size, BUT it also will virtually eliminate the problems editing the compressed files because you don't have to decompress on the fly.

HDV was much the same at first, transcoding was a viable option so you could edit more smoothly. AVCHD should be ready for prime time native soon, if it follows the HDV curve.

Yup. Averages 3 times.
e.g. I have One 15 sec clip recorded at highest quality 1080i. The AVCD file is about 30MB. The final .mov file is about 130MB. (ok. thats 4 times).

When you import the AVCHD, you have the option to import at 540,720 or 1080. The 540 setting lowers the file size considerably.

I find Hard Disks really cheap nowadays, so don't mind the larger file sizes at higher quality.

Haven't shot any hour long footage... but i would assume about an hour... which would be the same should you capture from tape... minute for minute.

You can edit HDV directly on Mac, as you would DV.

I would assume AVCHD to be as easy to work with as HDV within the year...
AVCHD cams are popping up everywhere now.

Thanks, Kevin. That cleared up a lot for me.

So, at this point in time, capturing HDV or AVCHD takes the same amount of computer time. In one case, the tape drive is running, in the other, you're converting.

Only, for AVCHD footage you have to convert twice it seems. Once to ProRes or Apple lossless, and then back into .H264 for burning on a Blu-Ray disc or downconverting to SD.

That means now, that, at this very point in time now, HDV and AVCHD are equally pracitcal to use.

I don't think you'll have any problems using an SR11 or SR12 with a Mac.

I just picked up an SR11 to try out, and iMovie '08 v7.1.1 imports the AVCHD files directly, as does Final Cut Pro 6.0.3.

No Sony software required. It's all plug and go. Apple must've fixed this on a recent update. It's all REALLY easy and automated... just as easy as HDV.

The only problem I see is not nearly as fast as I expected. I thought it'd be faster than HDV ingestion times, but it's not. Tape is faster to import, even with a beast of a computer (a 2008 Mac Pro with 8 2.8ghz cores, and 16 gigs of ram)

iMove '08 seems to only use 2 cores when encoding, making it 3 to 5 times slower than real time ingestion. Final Cut Pro seems to only use 5 of the cores, which ends up going about half of real-time ingestion.

I'm a complete and utter Final Cut newbie, so maybe I have something set wrong?

Anyway, at least the Sony is compatible and as easy to use as any HDV cam (I also have an Canon HV20, HV10 and Sony HC1). Once the footage is ingested, it's in AIC or ProRes format, so it's just as fast to edit and apply fx as anything else. The only major difference to me (besides the above speed issue), is that I can now shoot over 7 hours of 1920x1080 video without dropouts or changing tapes.