View Full Version : sd dvd from ex1 : horrible


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Paul Kellett
March 17th, 2008, 10:40 AM
Dan.
After getting mixed results with your settings,i've gone back yo your original settings and the finished mpeg doesn't look as good now,strange,i've checked and rendered the same piece of footage 3 times.

Paul.

Daniel Alexander
March 17th, 2008, 10:54 AM
thats weird, that has happened to me quite a bit in the past and i never figured it out. Exact same render settings on the exact same footage can come out looking very different sometimes, However this only happens to me using vegas so im not quite sure what's going on there. At the moment tho im getting near enough the same sort of results, everything looks very good aslong as there are no tripod pans, and if there is then i compensate. I think i may give the other methods of downscaling a go aswell to see if theres a complete and easy way to get a nice looking mpeg2

George Angeludis
March 17th, 2008, 12:51 PM
I have downloaded some clips from here and within Liquid I have exported as SD DVD and I find the result outstanding. In contrary what I see from my own shootings from Z1 and HV20 and some clips from XHA1 to SD DVD, they look really poor compared to EX1 m2t>to DVD files. This is a fantastic camera.

Steve Sykes
March 17th, 2008, 07:02 PM
MPEG Streamclip seems to offer an even better quality than virtualdubmods' smart resize filter!

Exporting to H264 Mov works nice, too :)

Dennis can you frameserve to MPEG streamclip from your NLE? Can you expand on your workflow using this method. Did you export the "squared 5" MPEG streamclip straight to MPEG2 for a SD DVD or did you create an intermediate file or frameserve to another encoder?

Also did you use MPEG Streamclip beta version?

Is this is a quicker & higher quality method than your previous workflow? Is anyone able to test this with both interlaced & progessive footage? I wonder how this software manages with the detail set to 'on' in the camera settings. I presume it is still best to have this off?

I feel this thread is really progressing towards a manageable workflow that can produce great SD DVDs. Great work! (Sorry if I ask too many questions!)

Paul Kellett
March 18th, 2008, 05:34 AM
Ok,i've tried different settings based around Craig's settings.
Project preferences make no difference at all to the finished article,
the finshed article being an actual DVD,not just an mpeg-2 render which i'm watching in VLC or windows media or whatever.
My finished mpeg-2's with my settings look crap on my pc,however when they're burnt to DVD and played back on a tv they look good.
Craig,your settings look very good on pc ,until shots start panning,then they loose all smoothness,it was this which i was trying to get rid whilst fiddling with your settings.

So i'm currently using Bill Raven's PP,with detail on,i don't add or take away any sharpening in post.
I render as MPEG-2 for DVD-A. I'm happy with the results. It makes no difference (to my eye) wether the original footage was shot in 720/50p or 1080/50i.

Paul.

Piotr Wozniacki
March 18th, 2008, 08:36 AM
FWIW, I have just rendered my EX1's 1080/25p HQ mxf into SD PAL DVD format, using Edius, and it looks SPLENDID, absolutely line-twitter free! And that's without ANY special treatment of the source, or output settings...In a 720x576 window, the rendered clip looks EXACTLY like the original on a full 1920x1080 screen - the same rich colours, no compression artefacting.

Sony, wake up!

Disclaimer: I am using the newest TBYB version downloadable since only recently from Canopus site (Broadcast 4.6)

Paul Kellett
March 18th, 2008, 08:45 AM
Piotr.
Edius or Vegas ? which do you prefer ?
Also you've rendered to MPEG-2 obviously but have you actually burnt it to DVD and watched it on tv ?

Paul

Piotr Wozniacki
March 18th, 2008, 09:23 AM
Piotr.
Edius or Vegas ? which do you prefer ?
Also you've rendered to MPEG-2 obviously but have you actually burnt it to DVD and watched it on tv ?

Paul

Premature question, Paul :) I'll keep you posted.

Paul Kellett
March 18th, 2008, 09:37 AM
Hmm.
How much is Edius gonna cost me ?

Steve Sykes
March 26th, 2008, 11:24 AM
Dennis can you frameserve to MPEG streamclip from your NLE? Can you expand on your workflow using this method. Did you export the "squared 5" MPEG streamclip straight to MPEG2 for a SD DVD or did you create an intermediate file or frameserve to another encoder?

I have tried to frameserve to MPEG streamclip from Vegas but it produces black video. I tried this using debugmode frameserver. Can anyone confirm frameserving will definetely not work, I want to cut down on the use of intermediate files to save hard drive space! I like the method Jacob uses: No need for intermediate renders. I use Debugmode Frameserver. Frameserve to avi from vegas, open that avi in Frameserver and use whatever resize filter settings you want. Frameserve from Virtualdub and and encode this avi from TMPG encoder. Voila!

It's a shame that this doesn't work with MPEG streamclip if the resizing conversion is even better than virtualdubs.

Have people found a 'best method' that works from this thread? I have noticed that comments have stopped recently. ATM I'll be using Jacob's method for large video footage. For small amounts of footage, rendering to a lossy avi, then to Mpeg Streamclip. If I buy the MPEG2 codec for Quicktime will Mpeg Streamclip export to DVD MPEG2 or will it still be better to export to export to another avi then use TMPGenc or similar to render to MPEG? As you can see there are too many stages!

Dennis, I would still like to know how you used MPEG streamclip in your workflow!?

Why can't NLE's have better conversion algorithms, it seems crazy to think that free third party software can do a better job!

Steven Thomas
March 26th, 2008, 12:15 PM
Have you downloaded Debugmode's latest frameserver software?
I have and it works great with Sony Vegas 8.0B to Procoder 3.

Steve Sykes
March 26th, 2008, 01:01 PM
Have you downloaded Debugmode's latest frameserver software?
I have and it works great with Sony Vegas 8.0B to Procoder 3.

Yes I have version 2.5. I can frameserve to virtualdub fine. I don't think it's a problem with Debugmode I just think Mpeg Streamclip doesn't support frameserving.

Jon Carlson
March 26th, 2008, 01:17 PM
Is it just me or is there a bit of an elephant in the room here? Major studios and large production companies stopped shooting SD a while ago, even if their final output medium was still SD DVD or whatever.

Take, for example, The Office (US Version... my apologies to all the fans of the original). This is shot with an F900 in 60i. We know from Adam Wilt's comparison tests that the EX1, while not competitive with the F900 per se, generates roughly similar amounts of detail.

When it's scaled down to SD DVD release, it looks pretty freakin' good. Same original image size (1920 x 1080), same native chip resolution, similar detail levels. I find it hard to believe that the difference between 2/3" CCD sensors and a 1/2" CMOS sensors is to blame. Nor do I think it's the XDCAM EX codec.

That leaves post-production and processing as the source of the troubles.

So, what are larger studios and production companies using that we haven't discussed yet?

Dennis Schmitz
March 26th, 2008, 01:45 PM
I have tried to frameserve to MPEG streamclip from Vegas but it produces black video. I tried this using debugmode frameserver. Can anyone confirm frameserving will definetely not work, I want to cut down on the use of intermediate files to save hard drive space! I like the method Jacob uses:

It's a shame that this doesn't work with MPEG streamclip if the resizing conversion is even better than virtualdubs.

Have people found a 'best method' that works from this thread? I have noticed that comments have stopped recently. ATM I'll be using Jacob's method for large video footage. For small amounts of footage, rendering to a lossy avi, then to Mpeg Streamclip. If I buy the MPEG2 codec for Quicktime will Mpeg Streamclip export to DVD MPEG2 or will it still be better to export to export to another avi then use TMPGenc or similar to render to MPEG? As you can see there are too many stages!

Dennis, I would still like to know how you used MPEG streamclip in your workflow!?

Why can't NLE's have better conversion algorithms, it seems crazy to think that free third party software can do a better job!


Sorry, my opinion was wrong about MPEG Streamclip.
It may be a bit sharper than VirtualDubs' Lanczos resize, but it produces some ugly color artifacts.

I will post a few stills tomorrow. ;)


regards Dennis

Adam Forgione
March 26th, 2008, 02:19 PM
Is it just me or is there a bit of an elephant in the room here? Major studios and large production companies stopped shooting SD a while ago, even if their final output medium was still SD DVD or whatever.

Take, for example, The Office (US Version... my apologies to all the fans of the original). This is shot with an F900 in 60i. We know from Adam Wilt's comparison tests that the EX1, while not competitive with the F900 per se, generates roughly similar amounts of detail.

When it's scaled down to SD DVD release, it looks pretty freakin' good. Same original image size (1920 x 1080), same native chip resolution, similar detail levels. I find it hard to believe that the difference between 2/3" CCD sensors and a 1/2" CMOS sensors is to blame. Nor do I think it's the XDCAM EX codec.

That leaves post-production and processing as the source of the troubles.

So, what are larger studios and production companies using that we haven't discussed yet?

yes i agree, what are they using

Dennis Schmitz
March 26th, 2008, 02:29 PM
yes i agree, what are they using

I don't think that their scaler are any better than the ones used in virtualdub.
Virtualdub beats many very expensive programs in terms of picture quality...

And many commercial SD-DVDs are suffering from the low DVD-resolution and show the same artifacts of course.


regards Dennis

Steve Sykes
March 26th, 2008, 03:20 PM
I don't think that their scaler are any better than the ones used in virtualdub.
Virtualdub beats many very expensive programs in terms of picture quality...

And many commercial SD-DVDs are suffering from the low DVD-resolution and show the same artifacts of course.


regards Dennis

Apparently TMPGEnc 4 Express also has resize options such as the Lancosz3 filter so I presume this will be identical to using virtualdub? I have TMPGEnc 2.5 so I don't have this feature.

Dennis Schmitz
March 26th, 2008, 03:23 PM
Apparently TMPGEnc 4 Express also has resize options such as the Lancosz3 filter so I presume this will be identical to using virtualdub? I have TMPGEnc 2.5 so I don't have this feature.

I don't know if the quality is really the same because avisynth has the same resize filters, too. But it introduces some very strange color fringing (don't know how to explain that phenomenon)...


regards Dennis

David W Williamson
July 10th, 2008, 04:51 PM
I, like many have been following this thread. It's now my turn to produce a good mpeg2 render from EX1's 1080p30. I've got debugmode installed and frameserving from Vegas 8, but what project settings in Vegas should I use? If I choose NTSC DV in Vegas, then the frameserved avi is 720x480. I assume to take advantage of the resizer in VirtualDubMod I need to start with a 1920x1080 file, so the only option available to me is to choose the HD 1920x1080 60i project preset. Is that right?

Also, once the debug frame serve file is in Vdubmod with the resize settings applied, how do I use HDEnc to encode that? It won't access Vdub's .vdr frameserve file. Niether will Cinema Craft, for that matter. What steps am I missing to get either of these mpeg2 compressors to work with the Vdub frameserver?

Just looking for some specific details on settings and configs, I've got 7 hours of HD to encode...

Andy Nickless
July 11th, 2008, 01:53 AM
Well I've read various stories about the horrors of the EX1 - and the dreadful SD footage that people are getting, so I decided to do a test for myself before I get too far into my project.

I took some "iffy" clips and some really pin-sharp clips and whacked them onto a FCP timeline- about a minute or so in total.

I exported as QT movie, current settings, self contained.

I made sure DVDSP was fully set up for SD 16:9 in preferences, imported that (HD) QT into DVDSP and burned.

Then I watched on TV. . .

Superb SD footage.

Of course, the "iffy" (slightly out of focus) clips were slightly out of focus and the rest was first rate STANDARD DEFINITION.

Piotr Wozniacki
July 11th, 2008, 03:19 AM
Yeah... I am delivering HD on BD's mostly, but made a couple of SD DVD's as well. Was prepared for problems after reading this thread, but am I just lucky or what?

- I can produce excellent SD out of Vegas (tested Edius as well), without any problems!

Paul Kellett
July 11th, 2008, 03:42 AM
Piotr, just for curiosity, can you post details of your vegas template for sd dvd's.
And are you shooting with detail on or off ?

Thanks.
Paul.

Piotr Wozniacki
July 11th, 2008, 03:51 AM
Paul, using Letus I always have detil on; without the LEX I _sometimes_ turn it off.

As to the Vegas DVD templates: believe me or not, but I find the default (PAL widescreen) to work best.

The only thing I do before rendering is select all events and in the Properties, check "Reduce Interlace Flicker" (even though I shoot progressive only).

No Gaussian blur or other means of reducing the resolution are necessary...

David W Williamson
July 11th, 2008, 09:30 AM
My test thus far have been so-so. I met with a client the other day that had nothing but complaints, and some of them are valid, while others are not. I'm trying to determine if it's the resizing or the compression or a combo of both.

I'm using Vegas 8 with Adobe Encore CS3. Based on what some have shared about their process, I've got a couple things I'm trying, but I'm missing a couple of steps. Anyone willing to share in detail their process, please!

Brian Cassar
July 11th, 2008, 02:49 PM
If somebody is managing to get "perfect" HD-SD downconversion with Adobe Premiere CS3 please let me know. Because I've tried every possible workflow and the result is just aweful and horrendous. If one wants decent SD footage, then shoot it with a decent SD camera. Fullstop. Or else we have two possible options:

1)wait for the new Sony software that will include HD to Sd conversion or

2)buy the nano flash and record SD via SD-SDI output and hopefully we have a decent SD footage.

Robert Young
July 11th, 2008, 04:05 PM
I hesitate to post this in the face of so many highly technical solutions to the HD>DVD conversion problem, but here is my experience:
1) Shoot in 1080 60i HQ
2) Import the raw files with Sony Clip Browser
3) Use Cineform Prospect HDLink to convert the imported video to 1920x1080 30p, 10 bit, 4:2:2 Cineform CFHD .avi files
4) Edit in Premiere CS3, Cineform Prospect HD 1920 30p project
5) Compress the edited movie to 720x480 m2v directly from the timeline using ProCoder 3, or even the Adobe Main Concept compressor
6) Author & burn in Encore CS3
7) Compared to HDV (Sony Z1, V1), or SD (Sony PD 170), these are the best looking DVDs I have ever made. Viewing on a large HDTV with "upscaling" DVD player, they look broadcast quality to me.
Possibly some of the posters in this thread are aiming for higher standards than I can percieve, but by no stretch of imagination does the above DVD workflow/output look "bad", or unacceptable.

Greg Penetrante
July 14th, 2008, 01:14 AM
I have experienced great results with downscaling 1080i60 to SD while using mpeg streamclip.

The trick to minimizing artifacts is to export to a good codec. I have great results when exporting/downscaling to Apple ProRes 422 or Apple Intermediate codec.

For Windows users try exporting to the Cineform codec.

I also check the "Better Downscaling" and "Interlaced Scaling" options in the Export dialog.

For 16:9 clips I manually select the frame size to 854x480.

After the scaled export is finished you may use the mpeg encoder of your choice.

Cheers,
-GReg

David W Williamson
July 14th, 2008, 05:55 PM
I've managed to get amazing downsized SD, only to have issues with the mpeg2 compression. I frameserve out of Vegas to Vdub and use it's 'resize' filter with the 'Lancsoz3' filter mode. Saving small clips as uncompressed avis out of Vdub looks spectacular! Super sharp, detailed, etc. But when I use CCE or Hcenc to encode, I get some rough looking stuff.

I started a thread about this process here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=125703

There is a 30 second sample clip for anyone to download and run their 'best' process on to produce a DVD-compliant .m2v file, and an ftp to upload the results for comparison. I can't seem to find a way to get close to that down-sized, uncompressed glory! All my attempts so far are just weak. Maybe I'm expecting too much?

Rainer Mann
July 15th, 2008, 02:19 AM
HD>SD: I did a looooot of tests and down the line my result was just to put the flickerfilter (set to max.!) in FCP above all the stuff and that works just great! Still gets a razor sharp picture (don't worry about the setting to maximum - you won't get a blurry picture!), but flickering on lines or stuff with high contrast is almost gone! So that's all I am doing:
Cutting on a XDCAM timeline, setting the flickerfilter, rendering all and exporting as a self contained qt-file and rendering with compressor or idvd. Result is a sharp sd picture but without the flickering on hard contrasts or thin lines.