I've had a few days to play with the HF10 and here are my thoughts.

It's very compact, yet also dense and has a nice solid feel in the hands. Anecdotally it feels like the OIS is more forgiving, but it might be that it just fits the hand better vs the hv20 and hg10.

Controls:

There is no focus wheel or dial, focusing is now handled by the joystick just like mic and exposure.

The joystick is out on the lcd like the hg10, and I found it much easier to use than that hg10's but I prefer the hv20's joystick because you can operate most of the camera with just one hand.

Closing the lcd puts the cam in standby mode for a preset time (10, 20, or 30 min) meaning it will wait that long before fully powering down.

it's a different smaller battery than the hv/hg series

It has a 12x (as opposed to 10x) zoom which makes an appreciable difference.

i was able to throw in some cheapo 4GB SDHC cards ($35ea) i had laying around and they worked great (you can squeeze about 50min of high quality mode on one of those)

the audio input via mic or onboard is adjustable

no zebras, focus assist comes on when you flip into manual focus mode and start to adjust it (only in standby mode)

the tripod mount lacks a registration pin, and it located very far forward (about 1.5" from the front of the camera)

Image Quality:

As far as image quality goes it's really close to the hg10 and not quite as sharp IMO as the hv20 and the h264 compression is evident on busy and fast moving stuff about the same as the hg10.

in a couple places i noticed a slight amount of ghosting, it appeared to by tied more to red moving objects than any other color

Ghosting example here:
http://file.meyersproduction.com/hf10/random%20ghost.png

I shot a little set up that highlights the differences between the hv20 hg10 and hf10. take note of the checks on the hat, as well as the center logo and the compression artifacting in the shadow. all 3 cams had the exact same settings and the clips were shot at the same time.

Comparison image sequence:
http://file.meyersproduction.com/hf10/compare.zip

I've thrown up some other random stuff in varying flavors for general viewing.

I've also uploaded a disk image of the camera that you can download mount and it should operate like you've got the camera plugged in (you can also pull the MTS's out of it as well)

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hf10/HF10.dmg.zip

There are also some audio tests I uploaded testing the new DM-100 in it's 3 modes and some random footage I shot over the past few days.

I'll be putting up some more screen shots etc as I get around to it.

http://file.meyersproduction.com/hf10/

Any questions?

Thanks Austin, interesting stuff. I'm in possession of a Sony SR12 and am very impressed with the picture quality thus far. I'm actually finding the SR12's picture more detailed and a bit cleaner than my HV20.

I've also found low light to be in the same ballpark as the HV20...not too bad. It really looks like the noise reduction that Sony touted for their new cams actually works. The combo of Exmor and Bionz technology actually appears to be more than just new Sony acronyms. It's also nice to see a real viewfinder as opposed to just an LCD flip out.

Other than cams such as the FX7, I've been favoring the recent Canon cams over the comparable Sonys when it comes to small HD units. But the SR12 may have actually changed my mind, especially in light of your mixed review on the HF10.

Almost forgot, damned if the 5.1 surround mike doesn't actually work!

don't get me wrong I really like the hf10 and wouldn't mind owning one. The ability to shoot on normal sd cards and swap in a new one at any time is to me the best of both worlds, the convienence of tape and non linear access of hdd.

Does the Canon automatically split the file at the 2GB limit though and continues recording? That's the big question with flash cards.

don't get me wrong I really like the hf10 and wouldn't mind owning one. The ability to shoot on normal sd cards and swap in a new one at any time is to me the best of both worlds, the convienence of tape and non linear access of hdd.

No, I understand what you're saying Austin, but for me in the end it still comes down to the best picture quality. I too love the idea of non-linear access, but I wouldn't sacrifice picture quality to get it.

Thus far, at least to my eyes, the Sony is showing me the best of both worlds, improved picture quality and the storage on both HDD (14+ hours at the best PQ) and memory stick. Memory stick prices have come down to the same ballpark as SDHC cards at this point. However, in reality, with a huge drive like the SR12 there's little need for a bunch of memory cards.

With that said I'd still like to see the HF10, but my biggest concern aside from PQ is the lack of a real viewfinder. It's give and take, size vs convenience. What else is new? ;)

Austin, I have two questions for you if you could:

First, the clip of the skyline and construction equipment appears to be in some format other than native. ULead Studio 11+ couldn't recognize it as I tried to transfer it to DVD for viewing on my plasma. I also couldn't get it to play on media player classic. Is there any way for you to post the native clip? Quality clips always look so much better to my eyes on a large screen HDTV.

Second, in making your assessments, can you tell us what you were viewing the material on? Thanks!

Does the Canon automatically split the file at the 2GB limit though and continues recording? That's the big question with flash cards.
Exactly! Do we still have this stupid 2GB file limit, and if so, does the accompanying software correctly reassemble the clips into one contiguous .m2ts file upon transfer to computer?

not sure about the 2gb limit ... Didnt know that was an issue.

The disk image has native files in it, see if those work in ulead.

I'll be posting up some mts files and more screen caps when I can (I'm shooting sxsw this week and won't even see my comp til thurs)

The disk image has native files in it, see if those work in ulead.



Austin, no luck, ULead doesn't understand a .dmg file. I've never seen one of those either in video. I tried changing the extension to .mts and .m2t, but neither of those worked in the PC environment either.

.DMG is a Mac disc image. Windows folks will need a .DMG to .ISO converter:

See http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22disk+image%22+.dmg+windows&btnG=Google+Search

Austin has now handed off the HF10 to a Windows guy in the area, so expect more to follow this week.

Thanks Chris, I'll give that converter a shot.

Chris, I was able to convert the file to an ISO file, but that's not a file that ULead can use for AVCHD output to DVD-R. For getting this to play on a BR player, the BR player needs to see an AVCHD compatible file. Otherwise I'm at a loss on how to play this ISO image on an HDTV.

Any ideas?

not sure about the 2gb limit ... Didnt know that was an issue.

It looks more and more to be an issue with every AVCHD cam. I emailed the AVCHD consortium and of course received no response regarding whether or not the spec is imposing a 2GB limit on files.

At least Sony's software correctly reassembles the footage files back into the original contiguous clip. Canon has left everyone hanging with the HG10. I expect the same with the HF cam's. Not sure what Panasonic has done - really wish someone with a Panny would chime in here.

For whatever resaon, it appears that the 2G file size is a part of the spec - absolutely incredibly unbelieveably moronic, but since all the AVCHD cams live by the rule, it's just up to those who need long clips to figure out what works!

I am thinking HF10/100 can record single 4GB files using FAT32, which cover approximately 30 minutes FXP footage. Certainly, it needs to be approved.

Ken:

I think the ISO file needs to be mounted in a virtural driver, like DAEMON or Alcohol 120%, then you can use it as a image file. Other wise you can open it with WinRAR or WinISO.

Yuning, thanks, but I'm trying to get this in the form of an m2t or mts file that can load on to ULead Studio 11+ so that I can burn it to a DVD-R in the AVCHD format. My objective is to have it play on a Blu Ray player and watch it on a 60" 1080p plasma. In other words I'm not really interested in seeing it on my computer monitor which is far less revealing than my plasma. I've actually gotten the original .dmg file to play in Windows Media Player, so that's not an issue.

This is what I've typically done with native AVCHD or HDV files. At that point it's as if I have the shooter's camera hooked up to my plasma. I don't know if I can do that at all with an ISO file.

the disk image is just a copy of the hf10 when it's mounted, to pull out the clips you either need an app that can read from the cam via log and transfer or you can ferret down the directories and find the one labeled "streams" and in there you will find all the raw mts files. try bringing those into ulead.

in the mac world you should be able to mount the dmg and and then open imovie or fcp and go to log an capture and it should appear that there is a camera available to transfer from.

i've got 2 more days of hard sxsw shooting then i can get back to putting stuff up. (i'm only at my computer now because i have to print out more biz cards for tomorrow)

the disk image is just a copy of the hf10 when it's mounted, to pull out the clips you either need an app that can read from the cam via log and transfer or you can ferret down the directories and find the one labeled "streams" and in there you will find all the raw mts files. try bringing those into ulead.



Austin,any suggestion on a PC program that would do that? Is there any way you can post just the raw mts files 'unbundled'? Thanks.

I'll upload the .MTS files when I get the camera back sometime tomorrow.

Thanks Chris!

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=113083&highlight=copy+command

This work around was suggested.

Frank, at least speaking on my own behalf, I am not looking for this workaround to be the final "product" here for Canon's AVCHD cams. It's far from ideal and will lead to extreme frustration if you don't get things exactly correct. So, again, I implore every owner of these AVCHD cams to hammer Canon and demand a software/firmware fix.

Please pardon my ignorance, but is this a Canon-specific issue or a general one for AVCHD?

LOL! Dave Blackhurst seems to believe that this 2GB limit is imposed within the AVCHD spec. I emailed the consortium and did not receive a response - no surprise there. If you read the fine print on the site, it says that it is up to the manuf how they choose to implement their AVCHD compliant products.

Per Dave's experience, Sony cams do not have any problems reassembling the 2GB files upon transfer to computer because the cam correctly tags each clip (or maybe just the first 2GB file) with data telling the software how to reassemble the clips into the original contiguous clip. Canon does not (at least with the HG10) provide software to do this. So you have to do it manually with the copy /b command - you also have to know exactly which .mts files comprised the original contiguous clip and if you can't open the .mts files on your PC then you're going to be guessing because there is no correlation between the .mts files and the clips you see on the cam's lcd screen. Yes, the .m2ts files are <datetimestamp>.m2ts so if you kept IMMACULATE shooting records, that would do it. But that is a major hassle nonetheless.

Like I wrote earlier, I really wish someone with a Panny AVCHD cam would chime in here and tell us exactly how those cams handle their extended shoot clips.

If you want to test the HF10, simply clear all existing clips, press record, set the cam down, and come back in 17 minutes (shooting highest quality) and tell us how many .mts files were created. Then use the Canon-provided software to transfer to your PC and see what happens. I bet the two files will be transferred as two files, whereas they SHOULD be transferred as one file representative of the single clip that is presented on the cam's LCD clip preview window.

Aaron, I think we'll have a hard time gathering any significant pool of users who encounter this. It will be very rare for a typical user (including myself who shoots DV professionally), to run a clip that long for the kind of shooting you'd do with a cam like this.

Even for the soccer mom, she'll hit the standby button long before 15 minutes. Now some parent shooting a recital might be a different story, but again this will be the exception by far as opposed to the rule.

I don't think the 2G file limit is AVCHD specific. Most external devices like Firestore and Sony's own DR60 do this. I think the main reason is FAT32 read compatibility for Mac and PC and older PC's( that aren't powerful enough to deal with AVCHD anyway!!!!). They always need some software to stitch the files back together. Early NLE's used reference files to get over this problem for FAT32 PC like WIn98 and I expect this is how the cameras solve this problem and how the Sony Browser software reassembles the files. If you just bring the files in to the PC they will be seperate files as you say. I am surprised that Canon have not provided this through the supplied software. I must try transfering files to the Memory Stick on my SR11 ( need to get one big enough first!!!) that way I will be able to see what is on the memory Stick and transfer without using the Browser software. Will try this weekend.

Ron Evans

Aaron, I think we'll have a hard time gathering any significant pool of users who encounter this. It will be very rare for a typical user (including myself who shoots DV professionally), to run a clip that long for the kind of shooting you'd do with a cam like this.

Ken - event videography. That's all that needs to be said IMO. AVCHD is poised to supplant HDV in the "prosumer" space. It appears Panny is first at bat here. I really wish a Panny AVCHD owner would chime in here on this topic. I agree with Ron; I don't think the consortium is imposing a 2GB file limit on these manufacturers. I think they're stupidly doing it themselves.

Aaron, I should have mentioned with the current equipment. I don't expect people to be doing much event videography with cams like the SR12 or HF10..as good as they are. You get my drift. ;)

Absolutely. Know any Panny AVCHD owners? LOL!

Not shoulder mounted AVCHD owners at any rate! :)

I'll upload the .MTS files when I get the camera back sometime tomorrow.

Chris, any luck in getting those .mts files uploaded. I'm particularly curious about Austin's shot of the skyline and construction equipment.

Thanks.

Aaron, I think we'll have a hard time gathering any significant pool of users who encounter this. It will be very rare for a typical user (including myself who shoots DV professionally), to run a clip that long for the kind of shooting you'd do with a cam like this.Actually I think it's a good exercise and I'll try to do this test tonight. I'm not gonna upload those clips but I'll be able to tell you if the files are split or not. Somebody will want to use these little camcorders as unattended B-roll or C-roll, behind the altar at a wedding or wherever. It's worth finding out in my opinion.

Chris, any luck in getting those .mts files uploaded. I'm particularly curious about Austin's shot of the skyline and construction equipment.Okay I'm working on uploading that clip right now, but it's over 100MB and kinda slow going (I live in the country with wireless connectivity that barely qualifies as broadband).

Okay I'm working on uploading that clip right now, but it's over 100MB and kinda slow going (I live in the country with wireless connectivity that barely qualifies as broadband).

Chris, time to move? :)

Off topic: Ken, we live off the beaten path at the end of a quiet road, where no one can drive past the house. We have great neighbors. We have horses, cats, dogs, a hammock, a tractor, and a host of deer, hawks, owls and other enjoyable critters in the wildlife out here. Plus an affordable mortgage and only a 45 minute drive to a major airport. In short, I'm dug in!

Off topic: Ken, we live off the beaten path at the end of a quiet road, where no one can drive past the house. We have great neighbors. We have horses, cats, dogs, a hammock, a tractor, and a host of deer, hawks, owls and other enjoyable critters in the wildlife out here. Plus an affordable mortgage and only a 45 minute drive to a major airport. In short, I'm dug in!

And you think that's all worth slow internet speeds? :) :) :)

Sure I think it is... when I'm outdoors away from the computer! ;-)

Okay, so I've successfully uploaded that file only to find that whatever I did to it (which was to move it from the HF10 to the computer using the Pixela software included with the camcorder) has changed the file from .MTS to .M2TS.

So, while I'm now uploading the .MTS which I grabbed directly off the SDHC card, I guess i need to know if .M2TS will work for everybody. I thought I could just re-name the extension but after some heavy traveling this week, my brain has turned to mush and I can't remember if that will work or not.

edited by me

edited by me

Aw sheesh, never mind. mts and m2ts are the same thing. I'll put on glasses before posting again.

Interesting that the name is Pixela instead of Guide Menu, Hmmmm? Chris, if you haven't already done so, please record a 17 min clip using highest quality and tell us what happens...

Sure I think it is... when I'm outdoors away from the computer! ;-)

Okay, so I've successfully uploaded that file only to find that whatever I did to it (which was to move it from the HF10 to the computer using the Pixela software included with the camcorder) has changed the file from .MTS to .M2TS.

So, while I'm now uploading the .MTS which I grabbed directly off the SDHC card, I guess i need to know if .M2TS will work for everybody. I thought I could just re-name the extension but after some heavy traveling this week, my brain has turned to mush and I can't remember if that will work or not.

Thanks Chris. Yeah, I don't think there's any difference between the MTS and M2TS files. It should work. I'll look for it.

Where's the new video?

I had a chance to check out the Panny SD9 today at Best Buy. I was able to manually set the shutter speed and aperture independent of one another and the settings would stay locked. Is this possible to do on the HF10?

Not sure about the HF10, but just to let you know the low light on the SD9 is absolutely abysmal.

Where's the new video?
Austin (Texas) from Austin (Meyers): straight off the card at 106 megabytes in size.

http://dvinfo.net/media/canon/austin1.mts

I'll try to set up the 17 minute extended recording test tonight or first thing in the morning.

Did not like the purple fringing going on there. Seems to happen a lot on the HF10. The HV20/30 do not exhibit that much CA on high contrast objects. So, no viewfinder and substantial CA...... decisions decisions.

Not all fringing is Chromatic Aberration. CA is only one of several possible causes of purple fringing.

Chris, first off thanks for the efforts in posting that clip. That .dmg file was very frustrating.

This is very dangerous to do, but I'll post my initial thoughts on how this one clip from the HF10 (and remember this is just ONE clip) compares to my experience with the Sony SR12 thus far. For baselining, I'm viewing these clips on a 60" Pioneer Kuro Elite plasma (1080p):

* The HF10 appears very detailed and at least in the same ballpark as the SR12. Without doing side by side A/Bs it's tough to say which is more detailed.

* The SR12 presents a cleaner image, the cleanest I've seen in any consumer HD camcorder. I can see a bit of noise in the sky on the HF10 clip but see absolutely none in the SR12 in good light such as this.

* I see the same blue skies leaning toward magenta in the HF10. I have the same issue with my HV20 at times. The Sony colors are more neutral and blue skies are rendered as a natural blue.

* I do see the purple fringing in the HF10 which I don't have in my HV20. It kind of looks like the issues that Canon has had in their prosumer HDV cams is filtering down to the consumer end, but to a lesser degree. But with that said, I don't find it objectionable and could probably live with it. I had about the same degree of CA in the Sony FX7 I once owned. In my FX7 it was a bit different and very predictable. Objects near the edges of the frame would tend to show it in some cases.

* I think the SR12 may do a bit better job with exposure. I'm basing this on parts of the clip where Austin is zooming and we get some blowout of highlights. Sony claims they have processing that minimizes this and it does seem to work from what I've seen.

* In terms of audio there is absolutely no comparison. The 5.1 DD on the Sony actually works. It creates an ambiance and directionality of sound that I've never had in any camcorder I've owned.

* I should also mention there is vitually no edge enhancement (thankfully) in the SR12. I think this is also helps contribute to the very low noise levels.

So yes, this is based on one HF10 clip vs. many I've shot with the SR12. With that said I'd still like to try the HF10 and see how it actually does size up in A/B tests with the new Sonys. Thus far I've been very impressed with the SR12 and I've owned an HV20 since it came out.

One thing is for sure, AVCHD has made some tremendous strides. You'd have to say they are at least as good as the best consumer HDV cams at this point.

Austin (Texas) from Austin (Meyers): straight off the card at 106 megabytes in size.

http://dvinfo.net/media/canon/austin1.mts

I'll try to set up the 17 minute extended recording test tonight or first thing in the morning.

My machine: win xp, amd x2 4400+ s939, 4 gig, 2 CRT monitors.

I get some rolling shutter problems I think on the pan left/right under the bridge with Intervideo in .m2ts format (even pulling from my WD Raptor).

I converted to HDV 1280x720 60p 5000k/sec, in Pinnacle Studio plus and I don't see any more glitching 1/2-2/3 of the screen down in creative media player.

I bet I will see it on my laptop, and at work on the LCD screen there. Will look later.

I think the glitch/rolling shutter is a resource problem and/or monitor type issue.

* just replayed the original to take a screen shot of the glitch, and it isn't there anymore.. has to be resource problem.


My eye isn't trained enough for see these purple color problems, video looks great from here.

Macro test in Easy mode vs. Program AE

http://dvinfo.net/media/canon/frogmacroeasy.m2ts (65 MB)

and

http://dvinfo.net/media/canon/frogmacropae.m2ts (43 MB)