It's the Sony HVR-M35, their most recent HDV VTR. Hope this helps,

So, is nobody using the Sony HVRMRC1 with XH-A1 at 25F? Would be great to get confirmation that the recorder supports this mode before buying one. So far haven't seen any indication whether it works or not.

Richard

Can the MRC1's playback be viewed on the A1's LCD and on a monitor attached to the A1?

Thanks.

So, is nobody using the Sony HVRMRC1 with XH-A1 at 25F? Would be great to get confirmation that the recorder supports this mode before buying one. So far haven't seen any indication whether it works or not.

Richard

if you look 5 posts further up you will find the answer :)

Can the MRC1's playback be viewed on the A1's LCD and on a monitor attached to the A1?

Thanks.

It can be played back on the LCD. Haven't tested it with a monitor.

So, is nobody using the Sony HVRMRC1 with XH-A1 at 25F? Would be great to get confirmation that the recorder supports this mode before buying one. So far haven't seen any indication whether it works or not.

Richard

Yes it does the previous post talk about 24p and 30p but I have checked and UK online stores sell it which would mean it would need to record at 25p/50i otherwise not much point selling it in UK.

and to prove it further here is the Australian manual that comes when you buy the z7p and go to page 28 stating it accepts all formats http://www.metroscreen.org.au/pdf/Manuals/RecordingUnit_Z7P Manual.pdf

So no more questions about it.. man I want one. especially that it has interval recording as well which the A1 itself doesn't :)

especially that it has interval recording as well which the A1 itself doesn't :)

I suspect this feature is for the Sony camera rather than the A1

I suspect this feature is for the Sony camera rather than the A1

It doesn't mention anything about it in the Manual except that its only in DVCAM/DV mode which is a shame.

I ordered one. I notice is stores SD video in AVI or "RAW DV". What file format is the latter? Is it supported by FCS 1? TIA

Has anybody tried the interval timer recording mode. Does it work ok

You can take a lot of great stills on a 4 or 8 gig card. It would be nice to have a timer hooked up to the snapshot button. I haven't found anything to take intervals onto tape.

I got mine yesterday and I have to say this is without doubt the single best accessory one can get for their tape based camera, especially XHA1.

On playing around I noticed if you play back a HDV recorded piece of footage in the camera and hit record on the HVR unit, it actually down converts the footage to SD before recording it as an avi. Thats interesting I thought. On a quick look at the original HDV clip and then the downconverted one, it seems to do a pretty good job too! And this wasn't even recorded with the raw avi filetype which could potentially do it even better.

I wonder could this be an unexpected perk?

I got mine yesterday and I have to say this is without doubt the single best accessory one can get for their tape based camera, especially XHA1.


Hi Ger. So can you please confirm that 25F recording works OK? Specs and brochures don't always tell the whole story so it would be great to hear from somebody who has actually tried it.

Richard

Hi Richard, I just tested with PP CS3 on PC.
In HDV mode on the A1 it records in .m2t both 50i and 25f.
These files import and work as they should.
In SD mode, again, both 25f and 50i work perfectly and are a standard .avi file.

The unit automatically detects whatever mode the camera is in.

As already mentioned there is also a RAW .avi file recording which I haven't yet tested as I simply don't need it at the moment. My take on RAW would be that like stills from a DSLR, one would only need RAW if multiple savings of files were needed to be done. eg. a colour correction and masking applied to a shot and made into another uncompressed clip, which again needed to be imported back into another timeline and processed again and so on.

Thanks Ger, appreciate you taking the trouble to confirm this. Now I just need to find somewhere in Singapore that sells this recorder, but that's another problem! :)

Richard

Ger,

Have you tried shooting in HDV on the Canon xh A1 and setting the output to downconvert and recording a SD signal on the CF card. The idea of the 2 formats at the same time maybe useful for some applications instead of downconverting from the HDV tape later.

Bob

........disregard.......

On playing around I noticed if you play back a HDV recorded piece of footage in the camera and hit record on the HVR unit, it actually down converts the footage to SD before recording it as an avi. Thats interesting I thought. On a quick look at the original HDV clip and then the downconverted one, it seems to do a pretty good job too! And this wasn't even recorded with the raw avi filetype which could potentially do it even better.

I wonder could this be an unexpected perk?

Answer to my own question - No. And to Bobs question, No.

My cam was doing the downconverting and the unit was reading the signal as a dv signal going into it.

Basically whatever signal the camera is feeding is the signal the unit records in.

We cannot have simultaneous recording of HDV to tape and SD to card.

I've read through this thread - just not clear on 2 issues (seems like I have seen different responses):

Battery - what specifically do you need to get to power this unit ?

Continuous recording during tape change - can that be done without dropped frames ?

thanks

I've read through this thread - just not clear on 2 issues (seems like I have seen different responses):

Battery - what specifically do you need to get to power this unit ?

Continuous recording during tape change - can that be done without dropped frames ?

thanks

To answer your first question you can use any L-series sony battery or a compatible off-brand. I purchased a cheap one and charger from China and it's run great with it.

Don't know the answer to your second as I haven't put a tape in my machine since getting the unit. Hopefully someone else as insight on this.

Velcro to the back

Just wanted to verify, but when you velcro'd the MRC1 to the back of the A1, did you just apply velcro to the battery pack door and then to the side of the MRC1?

This is a clever unit in the area of tape change.
When the tape runs out the unit continues to record.
When you make the tape change and press the REC button the new tape begins to record and the unit remains recording.
The next time the rec button is pressed ( to stop recording ) they both stop as usual.

Im not sure if it works the same but opposite for when the card fills.

This is a clever unit in the area of tape change.
When the tape runs out the unit continues to record.
When you make the tape change and press the REC button the new tape begins to record and the unit remains recording.
The next time the rec button is pressed ( to stop recording ) they both stop as usual.

Im not sure if it works the same but opposite for when the card fills.

do you miss any frames or add any audio sync issues during this process? I thought for some reason I read in the A1 manual that when you change tapes, the firewire out misses a few frames (maybe when the record engages). of course this is much better than missing 30-45 seconds of a tape change but just curious

With the tapeless recorder (MRC1)-Has anyone seen an improvment in the A1 when there is movement in the frame or large amounts of detail? As many others have said in other threads-quick movements in the frame are blurry and scenes with lots of detail look compressed and not as sharp. Understanding this is a work around many face with the compressed hdv format. I am looking to purchase the recorder to get around this problem.
Anyone who has seen improvement on this particular issue I'd love to hear comments.

Jason Weisner
Canon XHA1
Premiere Pro 2 |Cineform Aspect HD

With the tapeless recorder (MRC1)-Has anyone seen an improvment in the A1 when there is movement in the frame or large amounts of detail?

I have only heard great things about the quality of the video image of the A1- so I am surprised at this question. Is this really an issue with the A1 ? I am on the verge of getting the A1s - but this is of some concern.

As far as quality of tape vs quality of the MRC1 - I would think (guess) it should be exactly the same - both are M2t files I believe (same codec, and digital data (0's + 1's) are 0's and 1's ). I could be wrong, and I look forward to responses from actual users (which I hope to be one soon).

For me, the idea of the MRC1 is workflow - dump the MC file to a disk and start editing. Plus you have the tape backup for archive if you need. Kind of like the Pana HVC-150 but with tape capabilities - of course, mpeg2 instead of mpeg4.

Hi Dave. The recorder can't change the video quality, since the video is already compressed by the time it gets to the firewire port. I suppose you won't get tape drop-outs any more though.

The A1 image quality is very good, but it is HDV and therefore has some limitations. Scenes with loads of fine details and some camera movement don't look so good, presumably due to encoder constraints. And it is a bit noisy/grainy in low light as well, so be prepared to use the noise reduction (or even better, get some lights).

But generally I am very happy with the results from my A1, and I have no regrets about buying it 2 years ago. All cameras have their good and not so good points, so it's best not to expect perfection. And at least there is no rolling shutter problem to worry about. :)

Richard

From this forum and others I gathered that the MRC1 recorder would NOT limit the amount of data recorded (less data equal less detail). Some have hinted that is would by pass the hdv compression all together. That is where my main interest in this work flow lies. I have shot with this camera in HDV mode 60i extensively. Drops outs have never been an issue. It is movement blurring. Even in single head shot interviews(when a person is really animated with hands and head movement). A1 has limitations in the HDV mode.(all cameras have limitations) However the overall consensus is that A1 puts out the sharpest image. Sometimes too sharp-so the second it is slightly off you know it. Check out Vimeo under "Canon A1" search and you will see some great films styles shot on A1 video. I have been in the industry a long time however I am not by definition a cinematographer or a camera techy. I am always learning, trying to get the best composition of a shot without lighting or focus issues. If anyone has used the MRC1 recorder and seen less compression artifacts I would like to hear it. Thanks
Jason

Let's just cut all the rumors and spell it out once and for all so nobody get confused.

The MRC1 will record an identical signal on CF card to what the A1 lays down to tape. There is no difference. It is almost like saying a specific jpg image recorded to an SD card looks better than when it is recorded on a CF card. There is no difference. Digital 1s and 0s are identical, assuming the media doesn't fail somehow.

So, in my mind there are 2 primary reasons to use the MRC1.

1. Eliminate the potential for tape dropout
2. Tapeless workflow

I am sure there are a few others but none of them are for the purpose of a better image.

Sorry to break it to you but these are the cold hard facts. If you want less compressed images than on HDV tape from the A1 you need to look elsewhere.

Thanks.

That is why Canon sells the XH-G1 version for those that do not want HDV compression. I aggree with Marty, the firewire is just a network connection for transferring data. The camera has already compressed the video.

I have shot with this camera in HDV mode 60i extensively. Drops outs have never been an issue. It is movement blurring. Even in single head shot interviews(when a person is really animated with hands and head movement).

Jason, I'd suggest you check the presets you're using. It's possible you have NR1 active that's causing the "blurring" you mention. Even a low setting will show this but not as pronounced as mid or high, but still noticeable. I've also noticed this (albeit slightly) with NR2 on high depending on how much movement there is with the subject matter.

Help!
Does anybody able to record the "Free Run" Time Code of the XH A1 with this unit.
Is not working for me. I was reading the manual but I dont think that they explain in detail how to do it for other cameras. Do I need to record in the tape in order to capture the timecode thru the firewire on this unit? What are the settings?

Help!
Does anybody able to record the "Free Run" Time Code of the XH A1 with this unit.
Is not working for me. I was reading the manual but I dont think that they explain in detail how to do it for other cameras. Do I need to record in the tape in order to capture the timecode thru the firewire on this unit? What are the settings?

Well after a couple of diff. testing I have to say the HDv capture "Free run time code" just works when also is recording to tape.

.......The A1 image quality is very good, but it is HDV and therefore has some limitations. Scenes with loads of fine details and some camera movement don't look so good, presumably due to encoder constraints. And it is a bit noisy/grainy in low light as well, so be prepared to use the noise reduction (or even better, get some lights).....

Richard - for you or anyone else - and you might not know - but I am struggling between the A1, the A1s, and the Sony HVR-z5u - so this image quality impacts on me a bit. Out of curiosity, do you think you would have the same HDV limitations with the newer Sony z5u - is it just inherent with HDV - or is it the limitation with the camera ?

Thanks

There are certain limitations that the HDV codec has such as for example, how well motion is handled that will be there regardless of cam manufacturer. Its baked into the codec to a certain extent.

And a lot can be done to reduce grain/gain issues by controlling gain manually. It can make a big diff.

That said, Canon's approach to HDV has pretty much been in my opnion, class leading. Their image processing, 3CCD's and Canon L seies lens would still lead me to select the A1 (or Panasonic HMC150) over the Sony Z5U.

Plus, no rolling shutter issues.... no wobble....Some will say that their customers don't notice, but....since its a variable that I cannot control, that can potentially wreck havoc on my productionss I would rather not have to worry about it, so I will stay with CCD based cams and not have to potentially explain to a client that the rolling shutter effect they see is due to the cam's design and no, I can't do anything about it. I never want to put myself in a sitaution where I would have to say such a thing.

The lens is a big deal to me, anyways. And Canon is an industry leader here. "L" series lenses are known for quality optics. What is "G" series lens anyways?

I posted this very same question 18 months ago

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-xh-series-hdv-camcorders/100953-strange-effect.html

I came to the conclusion it is down to MPEG compression. I can't remember the exact figures but I believe MPEG samples the scene every 12 frames, frames are compared and if nothing has changed then elements are duplicated.

Richard - for you or anyone else - and you might not know - but I am struggling between the A1, the A1s, and the Sony HVR-z5u - so this image quality impacts on me a bit. Out of curiosity, do you think you would have the same HDV limitations with the newer Sony z5u - is it just inherent with HDV - or is it the limitation with the camera ?

Thanks

Hi Dave. I bought my XH-A1 because of the colours it "produces", and have never regretted it. Also it has a wonderful lens which is very difficult to match at this price point.

Recently I have been using a friend's Sony EX1 and EX3 cams, and they are in a different league in terms of natural colours and low noise. But of course they are in a different price range too, and require investing in the SxS workflow.

By all means check out the Z5 before deciding. I have doubts whether the optics will be as good as the A1's, but Sony cams tend to have very nice controllability features such as Shot Transition which can really help to get the shot when you need something special. As for HDV quality, I would not expect much improvement here as the HDV data rate is fixed by the standard. In the end, your decision will probably be made based on personal preference rather than the last dB of noise or compression artifact, which is fine because all these cams are capable of fine results if you use them well.

Richard

The lens is a big deal to me, anyways. And Canon is an industry leader here. "L" series lenses are known for quality optics. What is "G" series lens anyways?

I believe that lens is used on Sony's high end cams and has less CA than the Canon lens. However, I don't know of any A/B test between the two in terms of sharpness, resolution and contrast.

Also, from what I've read and seen from posted clips, the Z5's image is closer to the EX series than the A1. So if one prefers that image, you should check out the EX/Z5.

In terms of the advantage of Sony's Z5 approach (CMOS/rolling shutter) vs Canon's (CCD/global shutter), it depends on how you use the cam. The newer Sonys have obviously better low light but in environments with plenty of flashes going off, they're prone to rolling shutter. The Canons with their CCDs, don't have this issue but don't have as good a low light and are, of course, prone to those issues common to CCD. Personally I don't find the rolling shutter issue as bad as some people make it out to be, but everyone needs to make their own decision.

You pick your poison so to speak. Both cams are great and in capable hands will produce terrific images.

My experience using this unit recorder with my Canon hv30 was so cool!!
This is the camera that I use to go out with Family and know I don't have to think anymore on capturing vacation tapes after coming from vacations .

I still not find the way to sync the record button of the camera to automatically stop or record the unit recorder.

There is any setting in the hv30 to make this work?

I know on Canon A1 situation is the DVControl setting on the menu.

Not sure about your specific camera but in my DVC 30 and XH-A1 there is definately a setting in the menu system to turn on "External.....or DV control".

Not sure about your specific camera but in my DVC 30 and XH-A1 there is definately a setting in the menu system to turn on "External.....or DV control".

Yes
Canon XH a1 I can make it work but with the hv30 I don't see how to make it.
I was reading the manual last night and I do not find any setting of the camera that could help me with this sync. issue.

Darn, B&H has the HVR-MRC1K on back order . . .

Richard - for you or anyone else - and you might not know - but I am struggling between the A1, the A1s, and the Sony HVR-z5u - so this image quality impacts on me a bit. Out of curiosity, do you think you would have the same HDV limitations with the newer Sony z5u - is it just inherent with HDV - or is it the limitation with the camera ?

Thanks
The XH-A1s has some very useful enhancements over the older XH-A1. Unless your budget is tight and you are offered a really good deal on an older model, I'd say go for the newer "s" model.

Looking at footage from my XH-A1 and a friend's Sony FX1 (same optics at the Z1) on the same monitor, the Canon's image is slightly sharper both for moving and static subjects. The FX1000/Z5 is supposed to be an improvement on the older models in this respect, but I've not seen any footage yet. There are two possible sources of improvement:
1) better lens;
2) better MPEG2 encoding.
If the Sony image is now as good as the Canon (can anyone else comment?) then it's down to which one feels better to operate, whether the Sony is worth the extra cash (it's about 20% more in the UK IIRC) and whether you think CMOS chips (Sony) are good, bad or indifferent.

HTH

I just got my HVR-MRC1 yesterday and I have to say it's a pretty nice little unit. Smaller than I thought it would be which is nice.

I would like input and to hear of peoples experiences with specific CF cards. Will a 133X card work without problems or should I really look at getting a a UDMA card? Also, has anyone been able to verify if a 32GB card works?

Thanks,
Garrett

Hi. Got my MRC1 today. Works a dream! The pre-record cache feature is a bit freaky but I'm sure to some it will be invaluable. I'm using a SanDisk Extreme III 16GB which the MRC claims 72 minutes. No problems with dumping the .m2t files to Vegas or Pinnacle 12 via a Firewire CF reader, I can't ask for more really. Come on Canon, learn from this....
Regards, Oliver.

I have been following this thread for months and I am super excited to purchased tow of these units for my A1s.. but I have a question about time-code.

One of the great features of this work flow is that you have the tapes as back-up. Do the tapes and the files captured to the CF card have the same timecode? If so how is this possible with the 12 seconds buffer?

I am just thinking if I were to use the CF card footage to edit the sequence and then down the road I need to restore the project from the tapes, would this work? I have only had to restore a project from the tapes and a back-up file once but it was a lifesaver.

Also... how is everyone mounting this to their cameras. I saw the velcro idea. Any other nifty ways?

On final question... where can we find a short firewire cable to use with this device or is everyone using a 6 foot cable?

Thanks!

I just got one of these and used it for the first time this weekend to film a dance recital. One thing I noticed due to the formatting of the CF, the file sizes for the m2t's are limited to approximately 4GB (FAT32 limitation). The unit does start a new file but there are about 3 or 4 frames where there is no audio and the timecode seams off so there is a jump in the picture. I've got the unit set to Cache mode. Has anyone else experienced this and if so have you figured a way around it? If I set the REC MODE to Normal will this make the files smooth?

Other than that I find it a great unit. After I recorded the first half I popped the CF out and plugged it into my laptop and started playing some of the show. People standing around saw it and it generated a good amount of buzz so hopefully it will help video sales.

Thanks,
Garrett

Right-ho. Just done a 35 min continuous shot of nothing much. I get 21 minutes before the 4 gb is up and I lose 6 frames of audio right at the end but no video frames. The next clip just goes on playing with no visible glitch between the 2 clips, just the audio drop (I'm using Vegas). So I guess if you can keep your max shot length under 20 minutes and restart (perhaps durng a moment you know you can work around in the edit) you should be OK.
Hope this helps any,
Regards, Oliver.

Hi Oliver,

That sounds about what I got but I do notice a slight jump in the video also. Are you running the REC MODE in cache or normal? If I would have known that the unit was going to do that I would have done a quick start and stop at an opportune time before the 20min. I have a Sony PCM D-50 that I use for audio recording and that creates a new file seamlessly. All you do is pull the sound to the timeline, connect the files end to end and you can't hear a difference. I wonder if Sony will be able to use an NTFS files system on the CF cards in the future.

Brian, I'm using my MRC1 on an XL H1A so the mounting is easy. I just made a custom bracket that connects into the FS bracket that comes with the camera. It looks cool and makes the camea balance better in my opinion. For the XH A1 I would consider making a custom bracket from a thin peace of sheet metal that connected under the camera using the tripod mount. Have it extend backward and off the the right side of the camera (looking from the back) so it would sit roughly where the HD-SDI jack pack sits for the G1. Then have the MRC1 face out with the battery next to the camera. Use a 1/4" x 20 screw to secure it for underneath like it was designed.

As far as the timecode I always set to free run and non drop frame so it doesn't matter that the tape rolls after the CF starts to record. I did shoot tape and CF this last weekend and the timecodes are spot on.

I got a 1' firewire cable from Fry's electronics locally but I'm sure you can find it online somewhere. I think my cable cost $8.

Garrett

I don't have one of these units & don't plan on getting one, but can you not just format the CF card as NTFS to get around the 4gig barrier?

Bill,

I'm going to try that tonight but I don't know if the unit will recognize the card if it's formatted as NTFS.

Garrett