Hmmmm. Interesting

Requires 133x high speed CF cards, not any old CF will do.

Considering that many other all digital recorders (with internal A/D and D/A as well, go for $400 give or take (e.g,,MicroTrack).

$700-$1000 sounds like a likely price point considering the price Sony has put on other "Walkman" form factor video recording/playback devices in the past; e.g., the GV-Axxx, GV-Dxxx and GV-HDxxx series toys.

Does anyone have an idea when this will be available for the Canon or sold on its own. I am very interested.
Bruce yo'll never see this made for the Canon specifically as it's made by it's competitor Sony.

However Sony will be selling it separately, but no price or date has beens et as of yet. I talked to a Sony rep this past Tuesday, and I thought that he told me it might be available in May sometime. Again, he didn't know a price.

Hmmmm. Interesting

Requires 133x high speed CF cards, not any old CF will do.

Considering that many other all digital recorders (with internal A/D and D/A as well, go for $400 give or take (e.g,,MicroTrack).

$700-$1000 sounds like a likely price point considering the price Sony has put on other "Walkman" form factor video recording/playback devices in the past; e.g., the GV-Axxx, GV-Dxxx and GV-HDxxx series toys.

Yeah 133x but sony says to use 300 is what they suggest, which is probably like an extreme 4.

Evan,

Can recording start/stop be controlled on the Canon or do you absolutely have to start/stop on the Sony CF unit?

Also, does anyone know the workflow when using the CF recorded files with Final Cut? Does Sony offer a clip importer like it does with the EX1?

Thanks,
Paul

Hello All,

Help me out here.

I get the impression, from reading threads on this forum, that the perception is that the A-1 tape system is so fragile that a tapeless system is imperative.

Is that true?

If it isn't true, I'm guessing that my A-1 tape system will work well for many hours/days/months or a year or two until something non-linear cheap and reliable is developed for my A-1.

Not true?

Tx

I would think that the odds are very good that your A1 tape system will work flawlessly for years. I don't think there is any particular reason that it would be considered fragile. Some people will be using their's on a daily basis, which might increase the risk of mechanical failure, but it still would be unlikely that it would happen. That's my take anyway.

Pat

The A1 tape mechanism seems fine, although some people have reported problmes with it. The 2 reasons I am interested in tapeless are to avoid tape drop-outs and to replace the tape capture stage with file copying which is much faster.

Richard

Me too Richard...that's the good part of this unit.


David

I get the impression, from reading threads on this forum, that the perception is that the A-1 tape system is so fragile that a tapeless system is imperative.

Is that true?
No, not true, and what many see as the beauty of this device is that you can have your cake (tapeless workflow benefits) AND eat it (tape backup/archive). It's seen as SUPPLEMENTING tape, not replacing it.

All that's true of such as the Firestore as well, but in principle, a device like this is far more elegant.

Thanks for the replies. The info provided helped to clarify this issue for me.

Take care.

Hi all - to supplement Evan's info - I've been able to borrow the company's new Z7 for the weekend to try this out, and I can confirm that this recorder does indeed start and stop recording with the A1's start/stop button.

The HVR-MRC1 needs to be set to cam link mode (press CAM LINK button, a little lightning bolt appears in the display) for the A1's start/stop to function.

It does create several M2T files for a single capture sequence, so I'm not sure if it's doing scene detection or what. The files are various lengths so it's not a max file size thing. Anyone have a link to the manual?

Hi all - to supplement Evan's info - I've been able to borrow the company's new Z7 for the weekend to try this out, and I can confirm that this recorder does indeed start and stop recording with the A1's start/stop button.

The HVR-MRC1 needs to be set to cam link mode (press CAM LINK button, a little lightning bolt appears in the display) for the A1's start/stop to function.

It does create several M2T files for a single capture sequence, so I'm not sure if it's doing scene detection or what. The files are various lengths so it's not a max file size thing. Anyone have a link to the manual?

Hi James. That is great news if the recoder does sync to the start/stop. Thanks for reporting that.

Regarding the scene detection thing, what exactly do you mean by "single capture sequence"?

Richard

the A1 tape system works flawlessly. I have been using Sony Premium DV tapes with no dropout problems whatsoever.

It does create several M2T files for a single capture sequence, so I'm not sure if it's doing scene detection or what. The files are various lengths so it's not a max file size thing.
Like all tapeless workflows, it will create a file every time the you hit start and stop, so a separate file for every shot. Bring them in to an NLE and every shot then becomes a discrete clip. That can get unmanageable, in which case clips can be grouped to form a sequence, the actual material remaining as separate files. Max file only comes into play for long takes, (typically >10 minutes) when a single take may be split into single files. Obviously they can be seemlessly rejoined.

Hi Richard - As David noted I meant a single take - one continuous start to stop sequence.

However, after a fun day experimenting, I've found that the MRC1 consistently creates two files per take when hooked to the A1 - a small 8-10MB file, then the remainder of the take in the second file with no further errors. Between the two files I see a glitch for two frames at 00:02;15. An example is shown this PPro2 grab.

The error does not appear on the tape of the same take. On the same subject with the Z7U, it does not create the error, and has a single file per take as would be expected.

Thanks James. So this 8 - 10 MB file is what - the first 3 seconds or so of each shot? If so, that's pretty bad news, right? That glitch could ruin a lot of otherwise good shots.

Richard

Just to clarify - the first 2-3 seconds are recorded ok in the first file, then the glitch appears for the first 2 frames of the second file. The rest of the second file is ok. Of the about 20 takes I did on the A1 yesterday, 14 of the small files are 2 secs-15 frames long, the rest are 3 secs 0 frames.

A quick snip in your NLE of choice should remove the error without losing anything significant - it's just annoying as it is definitely repeatable on every take. It would be good to hear from any others with this combo - if they are seeing the same problem, of if I'm doing something boneheaded...

So the moral here is "try to start recording 3 second early to avoid glitches", I suppose. Shame, but that's life, I guess.

What about sound? Does that drop too?

Ok, getting to the bottom of this now... I found a setting in the MRC1 menu that sets it to "SYNCHRO" rather than "FOLLOW", with synchro selected I now get single files per take (6 out of 6 tries, anyway).

Just the sort of goof that happens when playing with cool new stuff without access to the manual! I found out that Sony put the manual for this on the CD that came with Z7U, which I don't have here.

Anyhow - it seems to work as Evan originally posted, and I will be borrowing this one every chance I get...

Cards used are PNY 266x 8GB. Very fast reading into the PC - finally a (cost effective) non-real time HDV transfer solution for the A1! PPro2 mode used was HDV1080i, I haven't yet tried the Cineform modes that I normally use to capture from the A1.

Excellent news! Now, if B&H can just get this thing in stock, we'd be all set. :)

Yes that sounds a lot better! Thanks James.

Richard

I'm fairly happy about all this :)

I am also intrigued by this. I would like the unit mainly for Same Day Edits during wedding day shoots. I was discouraged by the news that the unit only records mt2 files as FCP can't use them but then I found this thread on the Apple Discussion forums.

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=6807725

About 2/3 of the way down the thread "AlexTW" posted this link which is off of Sony's site. It is a plug-in to convert the mt2 files for FCP. Right under his post another person posts that, after some trouble, they got the plug-in to work with files from the Z7's memory recording unit. Here is the link to the plug-in.

http://support.d-imaging.sony.co.jp/www/pro_hdv/fcp_plugin/

I downloaded it in hopes that Sony will sell these units.

PS.. if someone can get a hold of one of these units and test this plug-in I would be over joyed.

Link to the PDF posted recently in the Z7 forum...

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=114943

James: Have you tried the cache recording mode? I'd be VERY interested to hear any experiences with that. I can think of all kinds of uses for that one.

James, thanks for all this info.
On page 9 of the PDF it seems to make reference to this "Synchro" business

It seems that "synchro" would be a more frame accurate method of simultaneous recording to both tape
and card while stopping and starting.

So could it be that the A1 has this "external REC control"
which in turn solved your problem?

Any update on this? Has this become an option to purchase separately from Sony? Got quiet here all of a sudden..heh.

I've been wondering the same thing, only hoping that someone suddenly breakout the good news. I also tried contacting Sony but always end up at the wrong place.

I suspect (hope) we'll hear more during NAB.

Sorry I forgot to post back. It'll be around 1000 bucks (at least in canada) and look for sept-oct for availability. That's what I've been told by sony so far.

A bit more then I would have liked but hey this is sony, but at least the option exists. I'm hoping NAB will have a focus enchancements reverse engineered one for less bread and maybe a second slot.

Upon doing some research, the only HDV format will be M2T which sucks for us Mac users.
http://www.dvwonline.com/content/view/615/646/
(See bottom of page)

Came across this by accident on the Canadian Sony support page. At the bottom of the page is a link to some software that apparently will make the .m2t files usable within FCP. Haven't tried it obviously (I don't use Mac), but thought it might be helpful. Take it for what it's worth.

http://www.sony.ca/hdv/support.htm

I used MPEG Streamclip for years now exactly to bring .m2t files to FCP. The important things to consider are: a) you need to select an appropriate codec to preserve you color fidelity. ProRes is not the best choice as you will add data loss to the data loss of 4:2:0 compression. Uncompressed or SheerVideo are better choices. b) if you shot your material at 24fps remember to enter 23.976 as you frame rate in MPSC in order to have the footage converted appropriately.

Came across this by accident on the Canadian Sony support page. At the bottom of the page is a link to some software that apparently will make the .m2t files usable within FCP. Haven't tried it obviously (I don't use Mac), but thought it might be helpful. Take it for what it's worth.

http://www.sony.ca/hdv/support.htm

To use it with fcp instead of mpeg streamclip use this:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=840936&postcount=23

I wonder if the bean counters at Canon have considered how many XH-A1 and XL-H1 owners would buy a solid state recorder designed specifically to match these cams? If Canon released a nice SD or CF writer at a reasonable price (say $500-700?) how many of us *wouldn't* buy it?

And of course in addition to selling these to a high percentage of existing Canon HDV customers, just imagine the overall popularity of a solid state recorder if it included a standard shoe mount?

Honestly I don't understand why a company like Focus Enhancements hasn't already come to market with something like this. No cooling fans or other moving parts, no expensive hard disk, etc.... And they could even market a low end unit with a single slot or a high end unit with 2 rollover slots. Oh well...

I think Canon has a thing or two to learn from Red. Very few people were dreaming with 4K Cameras. Red convinces you that you needed 4K then provided the cameras along with a host of other gears. All I'm saying is that Mr. Jannard is a genius, and Canon is not learnig from it.

I think Canon has a thing or two to learn from Red. Very few people were dreaming with 4K Cameras. Red convinces you that you needed 4K then provided the cameras along with a host of other gears. All I'm saying is that Mr. Jannard is a genius, and Canon is not learnig from it.

Well lets be fair now, you could replace "Canon" with "Sony", "Panasonic" or "JVC" and have the same outcome :)

But lets not deviate into a Red vs Canon discussion here (actually, I think there might already be a thread for that).

Hi Phillip:
No intention in making this a Canon vs Red discussion. It's only that Canon plays it too safe when it comes to Video Cameras but not in photography. I was hoping from them a more aggressive approach to innovation. But anyway I'm fully aware of other choices.

Hey guys, I'm currently an HC1 owner looking to upgrade (but not necessarily replace my HC1), and I am bouncing around from thread to thread finding info. After looking around a bit, I started eyeing the XH-A1 as what would be a good next camera. One of the key points being the $3kish price.

But with my next camera, I really would like to be be able to record both to CF and Tape. My main purpose of this camera will be to record myself doing stand up around the DC area; however, when performing, I usually record other people's stand up performances and sell them their performance as a DVD. This works perfectly because it helps me get back some of the money I'm dropping on my equipment.

So that's where recording to CF would be perfect because I'd like to definitely have a hard backup of my performances in full HD, but may not need to get to it for a while. However, for the other performers, I need to get their DVD to them in about 1-2 weeks. So for them, I would just like to record to CF, get their DVD to them, and once everything checks out, delete their footage.

So that being said, if I haven't bought the XH-A1 yet, but really would like this functionality, should I look into something else? Or is there a very good chance that what we're discussing here for the Z7 will be available for the XH-A1 at a fairly reasonable price (although $700+ is still a bit hard to swallow).

In addition to stand up, I would also like to use this camera to work on a short film or similar project one day. I'm still debating on selling my HC1 if I get this camera because I'm not sure how much I would enjoy taking an XH-A1 to personal events as opposed to the portable HC1.

By the way, I think the OP should change this subject to something a bit more related to what we're missing. I skipped over the thread before finally clicking on it to see what it was all about. And it turns out it discussed what I was interested in.

The A1 has an SD card reader built in.

It would be so simple if this one could also be used for video recording purposes. it might be too slow, but, think of it, one minute... if a much cheaper consumer cam can do this, why not the A1? Any reason to think that the internal hardware is so different?

Unfortunately, I share the feeling that we don't have to expect a firmware update anymore, enabling new, magnificent features, but Canon, if you should read this: the Sony Z7 would look like an old camel with its backpack recorder if you could make the A1 record m2t's on SD-cards as well.

The A1 has an SD card reader built in.

It would be so simple if this one could also be used for video recording purposes. it might be too slow, but, think of it, one minute... if a much cheaper consumer cam can do this, why not the A1? Any reason to think that the internal hardware is so different?

Unfortunately, I share the feeling that we don't have to expect a firmware update anymore, enabling new, magnificent features, but Canon, if you should read this: the Sony Z7 would look like an old camel with its backpack recorder if you could make the A1 record m2t's on SD-cards as well.

Now just upgrade the A1 with 1/2" chips for better low-light performance, and you'd have a killer camcorder.

can you play back the footage through the camera lcd from the HVR-mrc1?

This past weekend we were shooting and using as a scene camera the little hg10 so that we could instantly jump around and see the takes (slightly lower perspective) that way we can instantly see the last take or 5 takes ago with no tape winding or searching, it was so convenient. So with this CF recorder the real benefit would be to be able to check it on camera rather than having to keep jumping from camera to a computer to load and check the clips.

And if it does not work (playback through LCD) with the A1 does it with the sony it comes with, since this alone may be enough to justify selling the A1 and going for the sony since it has 24p and comes with the CF recorder.

Sept./Oct. is still such a long time away....ahhh.....hate dumping footage via tape. :( Rather than spend money now for firestores, I'd rather wait it out and spend the money towards this unit.

Sorry, didn't mean to bump with such a useless rant :S.

When is NAB? I saw a date for oct. in Europe. Hoping someone comes up with a similar product to use with our A1s before Sony's release.

Take a look at this link, it gives a brief look at the Sony camera and features

http://www.macvideo.tv/camera-technology/reviews/index.cfm?reviewid=100294

Has anyone heard anything more about this?

Hi Paul,
I read the other day on another forum that this guy had been to a Sony roadshow in Australia & they had told him that it would be available later this year in Australia. I have nothing to back this up, but if it's true, then i will be the first in line to get my hands on one. Assuming the price is right of course! I am on the verge of buying a Firestore, but i think this would suit my needs much better. Heres hoping!!

Bryce

You may also want to take a look at this video

http://www.macvideo.tv/reviews/index.cfm?reviewid=101575

I have the Canon XH A1 but after a couple of tape failures I am seriously looking at tapeless recording - the Sony may be my answer although I love the picture quality of the Canon

Vincent,

Thanks for posting the link.

I hope this isn't a needless "bump," but I am quite excited by the prospect of this little Compact-Flash recording device, AND it's nearly September. I don't suppose anyone has heard any more information on when and how much, etc?

Is anyone else getting the feeling that Sony is going to either
(a) Not release this at all, realizing that they'll drive a bunch of XH, V1, etc.. owners out of the cam market for another 2-4 years.
(b) Realize that not one single other company has stepped up to fill this product gap and charge some outrageous amount of money.

Still can't believe Focus Enhancements or some other company doesn't have a unit like this. All the interfaces and software are engineered and paid for ... just point the data to a CF card instead of a hard drive. Sigh.

Is anyone else getting the feeling that Sony is going to either
(a) Not release this at all, realizing that they'll drive a bunch of XH, V1, etc.. owners out of the cam market for another 2-4 years.
(b) Realize that not one single other company has stepped up to fill this product gap and charge some outrageous amount of money.

Still can't believe Focus Enhancements or some other company doesn't have a unit like this. All the interfaces and software are engineered and paid for ... just point the data to a CF card instead of a hard drive. Sigh.

Patience.
Sony will release it for public use. After all it's more money in Sony's pocket when they do. And Sony is all about making money. =)

Anyway, I remember talking to a Sony rep several months back and said that it would be released sometime around OCT-FEB, and run somewhere around $1,200 or so.