It looks like JVC has picked a winner with Sony and Canon backing their format choice.

http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/english/press/2003/hdv.html

--

In standard list, does anyone else feel it is very short-sighted not to include a 24p format in the standards mix. I guess this is why Pansonic is not part of that press release, they seem to be alone in seeing the market value for 24p in the low-end pro market.

Very interesting.
One major company absent on the supporters list is Panasonic. It's especialy suspicious considering their close relationship with JVC.

See also http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11605

JVC and Panasonic are both owned by Matsushita. The entire video marketplace is somewhat incestuously inbred.

This press release is very good news indeed. This means Canon has their sites set as well Sony.Etc in adopting this standard and bringing HD Mpeg gear out too! Next year I believe is going to have big announcements. I for one will look forward to seeing new breed cameras from Canon. I'm sure their new HD camera, either a XL1 type or? Will play a big role. For one Canon has no upper divisions toes to worry about stepping on. Unlike Sony and Panasonic. They have to be careful to keep the product lines from crossing over. Canon does not, and I am only assuming will have a removable lens either single ccd or? HD camera with all the know how they have learned from the XL1 SD line to bring to this camera.

michael pappas

No 24p? This is infuriating. This is undoubtedly a conscious decision to turn away filmmakers and ensure that they use only the higher end equipment.

However, luckily this doesn't preclude a 24p camera much like the Panasonic one. By using 1080/60i to properly store frames and fields, a camera can still record 24p images using the the 1080/60i format. But clearly this is not what JVC & co. want.

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : For one Canon has no upper divisions toes to worry about stepping on. Unlike Sony and Panasonic.
-->>>

What about Sharp? It looks nobody is holding his breath to see what Sharp is cooking. They are like Canon not limited by upper divisions.

Well seems like they finally took care to see what the impact of the JVC HD10 was. I believe there was already a possible standpoint, they were just waiting to see wether the camera would or not interrest people and filmmakers alike. As for the 24p problem, it is not really a problem since the DV protocol was not intended for 24p and yet there ws developpement for it. Also the fact that Matsushita is behind both JVC and Panasonic would tend to point to the fact that Panasonic did not involve on the first stream as they are most probably developping a 24p compatible model for later use and do not want it to be spoiled just right now. They investe a lot into 24p and JVC being their developpment company it all makes sense that JVC did not offer 24p in the first place.

Actually, isn't it true the XL-1's chips are made by Panasonic? Hence the rumored 24P XL2, 18 months after the announcement of the DVX100?

heath

This is what this standard means for filmmaking:

The most important is the inclusion of 720/25p with 19 Mbps stream. Varicam's, stream, when converted to 720/24p, becomes about 40 Mbps. Varicam compression is based on the Sony-developed DV format. MPEG2 is a lot more efficient compression. I'd say that the MPEG2 camcorder picture with 720/25p can be about as good as Varicam picture at 720/24p.

There is another point, and that is that the new HD standard is not meant only for consumer products, but will start replacing pro DV and the 4:2:2 50 Mbps formats soon.

Canon's problem is that it does not manufacture its own CCDs but buys them from Panasonic and Sony -- depending on a camera. JVC does not manufacture CCDs either.

Since a standard is established, there will soon be some company that will make high quality MPEG2 processors for these camcorders -- something a lot better than the NHK processors used in the HD10.

I think that by next CES and NAB there will be some excellent MPEG2 HD camcorders.

The Varicam will have to come down in price and the new Panasonic SDX900 will soon become obsolete.

I thought that by next NAB we'll see Blu-laser HD DVD camcorders. This announcement may push the Blu laser camcorders to 2004.

I am sure that Canon will come out with XL1s camcorder replacement that will have a new lens line. This new lens line will be usable if Canon decides to switch to the Blu-ray format.

The JVC started it. Canon is probably working on XL1s HD replacement, Sharp is probably working on an HD camcorder and Sony, as the inventor of DV, got naturally involved.

Panasonic is probably planning on Blu-ray based HD DVD camcorder and this new HDV format would mean low cost HD that would compete with Varicam.

Varicam was the least expensive camera good enough to make theatrical release films; the new format will give this ability to cameras costing 10x less.

Check out this Panasonic miniHD cam, apparently out already in Japan.

http://www.supervideo.com/2003h.htm

<<<-- Originally posted by Yang Wen : Check out this Panasonic miniHD cam, apparently out already in Japan.

http://www.supervideo.com/2003h.htm -->>>

Wild...wild, wild, wild. An underwater housing already? 3 1/4 inch ccds? (Below even an XL-1s.) 3.1 megapixels (the Pany Varicam is only 1 megapixel, the Cinealta is 2 megapixels). And it looks like a freaking handicam mini-dv consumer camera.

Forgive me if I'm doubting this a little bit.

I took a look at the site, they're based in Boynton Beach, FL. where I live (yeah, I put West Palm Beach, FL., only to look cool). I sent an email to find out the truth.

heath

Or this page also

http://www.supervideo.com/blackmamba.htm

This looks a bit too good to be true but the camera does exist, it is the GS-100k (not the mx 7000) all the images taken by the guy are there so I figure this is the machine. There is metion that it uses a High Definition system. Not much details on the format though, what is the frame rates of the camera, mpeg4 for stream?. The guy sais that reportes followed the US troops during the war with that thing... interresting. This guy could sell a HD to my grandmother...

Check out this very interresting an revealing site (in japanese not much can be automatically translated though):

http://panasonic.jp/dvc/DIGICAM/gs100k/index.html

If anybody knows a better translation engine than Babelfish let me know...

Also, after an intensive search, no mention of an MX-7000 camera on Panasonic site (Japanese). This is very puzzling. Why would the guy give it a different name? Looks like a fake to me...

I think you have to consider the source (supervideo).

There is no information on what makes the MX7000 "HD" or what its encoding is. There is a claim of 3.1 MP but that appears to be the still resolution. Who knows what the CCD res is since supervideo is not trustworthy.

I used the email to get more information but the reply included no information at all---not even how to order one! All I've gathered is that you have to buy it with a bunch of undesirable accessories as a kit.

The MX7000 may be interesting but its hard to say from chuck's site. If his info is to be believed, this camera is very small/lightweight, packs 8 times the raw pixel count of the JVC, has a 0 lux rating, provides roughly 10 times the DSP power of the JVC yet has significantly better battery life. My bogometer is pegged. JVC's main challenge is getting enough DSP power after all.

I suspect the camera has 3 1MP CCD's. It will be interesting to see what its HD modes are (if any) and how that data will be edited.

Here you go...

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/panasonic-japan-nv-gs100k-three-chip-06-09-03.htm

In summary:

800K pixels x 3 (600K in video mode)
30 frame progressive
MPEG4 recording to SD card
3.1 MP still picture using interpolation

It's just a $1500 consumer DV minicam. The chuckmeister is a slime.

Well, that was to be expected, There would have been more waves in the lake if a real HD 3CCD 3.1Mpix camera had been introduced... Poor guys buying this shit without a proper research. The mpeg4 recording to sd card was apparent in the japanese site, I thought there was no DV HD recording to mpeg4. I believe announcements will not come until late this year for new HD models.

I got an email reply back from Supervideo and Chuck:

"So where do you think, pray tell,
your meister lives in South Florida?

Or did you see an image of Cascade Lakes on one of my images posted?
Sincerely with 4th of July Chicago Aloha
chuckmeister"

I'll leave the opinions up to the readers... Suffice to say, I replied with the address he posted on his site, which is a POBox next to the grocery store my friend works at, I believe. I'm having problems believing this, esp. the bit about reporters following soldiers in Iraq. We definitely would've heard about that; plus, one of our reporters went over there and didn't mention A THING about HD. And he and his camera guy definitely WOULD have.

heath

Supervideo is a comedy site. Your reply was much more bizarre, and totally different, than mine.

Incidently, this camera is available standard in silver and black. The special "black mamba" edition is "limited" to the number of people he can con.

<<<-- Originally posted by Craig Jones : Supervideo is a comedy site. Your reply was much more bizarre, and totally different, than mine.

Incidently, this camera is available standard in silver and black. The special "black mamba" edition is "limited" to the number of people he can con. -->>>

I just mentioned that I lived in Boynton and wanted to see the camera. He keeps talking about Hawaii, then I saw under his bio his son lives there. I think he's selling vacations through his son. Sounds fishy. Any government types out there?

What did he say to you, Craig?

heath

Aloha
Thank You for enquiring about the new MX HD...

I should point out that this camcorder is a Limited Edition
and it's a complete package and the contents is posted @
<http://www.supervideo.com/blackmamba.htm>
I should point out that one of the reasons that FEDEX
service and shipping product insurance is included is
because this is not a business but a Service. Each
unit brought in is spoken for and you must be put on a
list so your cam can be shipped directly to you and if
need be can be done overnight Express Delivery so
when your local FedEX office opens at either 7:30 or
8AM you can take immediate possession and not
necessarily have to wait at your house all day for a guy
to show up for 2 minutes and maybe catch you indisposed !

This is very important.
No money changes hands Until your unit arrives in the
states and is through customs. Transactions are done
in English, using American Banks, American Credit Cards
(which BTW gives you and automatic 1 year product
warranty!) and US delivery systems. When your unit
arrives you will be contacted by phone and that time
the transaction is made and you are given MX serial
numbers and FedEX Tracking numbers for 2 day delivery.
MXSource in DeKalb Illinois is centrally located and has
had years and years of experience with importation of
expensive and unique products. I have asked them
to make this MX available since it is months and some
times a year before they ever get here and mainly
because so many of my e-mailers do not want the
USA versions that are stripped of key features and
inflated dealer prices. The MX3000 was $3999 when
it got here as the EZ30u and was missing 14 features
at last count. The MX5000 had four features removed
as the PV953. This has been going on almost 20 years !

This is a single kit and is packaged as such. Some items
as accessories will work with other Pana products and
other formats such as PAL and sometimes also can be
used with older models. You can also enquire about
obtaining a Pana MX accessory not sold outside Japan.

Following this e-mail I am sending you MXSource Contact
Links. Walt & Warren are the owners. For years & because
of the hundreds of owners walking around the states with
MX camcorders... they are testament to a great product,
great service and VERY contented digital video MX owners.

Tell them I sent you and they he can explain the features of
the Black Mamba system and of all the accessories you get.
Show them this e-mail and you are entitled to a SuperVideo
discount of $200 and a July bonus of the MX Filter kit.
The Home Page for this new MX HD is going up @
<http://www.supervideo.com/MX7000.htm>
Thanks for writing and DO keep me posted.
Sincerely with Aloha
your chuckmeister

This guy is looney. He's trying to avoid paying taxes and such, he's probably unincorporated and doesn't have a license. As a registered business (and an additional non-profit) in Florida, I'm shocked and disappointed.

heath

I believe we are going to see quite a few of these nuts around talking about HD miracle machines they could sell you before anybody else does...

A dissapointment but certainly not a surprise.

Eric

hmmm he's been around for many years so I assumed he is legit. 've never purchased anything from him though. has anyone confronted him with the jap sites that shows the MX7000 as something else?

He's been like this as long as he's been around. His claims on editing notebooks are even more outlandish than his camera claims. Look at his main page right now. He's advertising a notebook with a 3.6GHz P4, a 120GB hard drive and dual DVD burners. Ever heard of a 3.6GHz P4? The real machine is no different than what you can get at a dozen different places.

Supervideo is strictly an entertainment site. Don't believe any of it without independent verification.

Okay, so he left out the zero in 3.06 :-)

Getting back to the subject of this thread, the thing I find interesting about this HDV standard agreement is that it seems to indicate that despite previous rumors, HD DVD camcorders won't be coming anytime soon if at all.
I suspect that Panasonic's surprise demo of memory-based recording at last NAB and their stated intent to have actual product in time for next NAB (April 2004 isn't that far away) made the other manufacturers realise that if memory-based camcorders are barely a year away, an HD DVD camcorder would have too short a product life. This HDV standard may be just an interim step to allow them to bring product to market now (to compete with JVC) before memory-based products are ready.

Yeah but he's "made those mistakes" for years. He also claims a 120GB hard drive when it's in fact 2 60GB hard drives. His DVD burners are actually combo DVD/CR-RW drives that can't burn DVD's at all. His inadvertent errors are systematic.

On the "MX7000" 16:9 plus progressive equals HD in his mind and the 3MP still mode means 3.1MP CCD's.

He's said some whoppers over the years like no DV editor can ever use more than 40GB of disk space and at 500MHz all programs run at their maximum theoretical speed. I like the one where he claims that the battery he sells runs a computer all day and all night, and that the computer he sells weighs 7 pounds when it really weighs 13. He also claims to have invented portable video editing even though I've done longer than he has. For entertainment only!

<<<-- Originally posted by Bob England : Getting back to the subject of this thread, the thing I find interesting about this HDV standard agreement is that it seems to indicate that despite previous rumors, HD DVD camcorders won't be coming anytime soon if at all.
I suspect that Panasonic's surprise demo of memory-based recording at last NAB and their stated intent to have actual product in time for next NAB (April 2004 isn't that far away) made the other manufacturers realise that if memory-based camcorders are barely a year away, an HD DVD camcorder would have too short a product life. This HDV standard may be just an interim step to allow them to bring product to market now (to compete with JVC) before memory-based products are ready. -->>>

That's very possible. If other manufacturers didn't want to use tape, or at least DV tape, they wouldn't want to endorse JVC's entry.

<<<-- Originally posted by Peter Moore :
However, luckily this doesn't preclude a 24p camera much like the Panasonic one. By using 1080/60i to properly store frames and fields, a camera can still record 24p images using the the 1080/60i format. -->>>

Actually, Panasonic uses the technique you mention for 720p60 recording of a 24fps capture. It could be used for 1080i as well.

Does take a bit of work to get the 24fps back, however.

I would suspect that Panasonic will
let JVC go the HDV route (for now) while they and Hitachi go the HD on DVD route.

One last bit on Chuckmeister, I told him to forget it as we found the translated-to-English-from-Japanese site detailing the so-called Panasonic "HD" camera. I mentioned it's NOT HD and I have no interest.

heath

After the MX5000 came out in Japan (MX500 PAL, PV-DV953 North American version), Panasonic released the GS70. Charles Littman (Supervideo) decided to call it the MX5000 upgrade, the MX6000. Then in Japan, 2 weeks back, the GS100K was released, so Charles decided to call this one the MX7000. Note: the GS100K IS NOT a HD cam. It has frame mode and it has the better 16:9 mode like the MX5000/MX500/PV-DV953 and PDX10.

<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Granovski : After the MX5000 came out in Japan (MX500 PAL, PV-DV953 North American version), Panasonic released the GS70. Charles Littman (Supervideo) decided to call it the MX5000 upgrade, the MX6000. Then in Japan, 2 weeks back, the GS100K was released, so Charles decided to call this one the MX7000. Note: the GS100K IS NOT a HD cam. It has frame mode and it has the better 16:9 mode like the MX5000/MX500/PV-DV953 and PDX10. -->>>

So he's naming these cameras himself? Maybe we should email Panasonic...

heath

Yes.

Since the GS70 was newer than the MX5000, even though it's really low-end, he decided to call it the MX6000 (since it came out after the MX5000); and since the GS100K came out next, he put the MX7000 stamp on it. Regarding the HD confusion, when you translate Japanese to English via babblefish, the term higher resolution, or something like that, is translated as High Definition. For the exact details about this, because I don't have the exact details, go to that long GS100K thread on our MX forum. Allan, who lives in Japan, and speaks both languages, explains what's written on the Japanese site and how it SHOULD translate.

I hate reading misinformation!

PS: he's been in trouble with Pana before, or so he told me.

If this guy was in trouble before with Panasonic, why is he doing this? I guess he could hide behind the translation...high definition instead of high resolution....

heath

...but how about the "limited edition" black mamba? How stupid is that?

If he has a relationship with Pana I don't see why they'd maintain it. If not, I can't see that they have any leverage. It's amazing that he makes up product names.

<<<-- Originally posted by Craig Jones : ...but how about the "limited edition" black mamba? How stupid is that?

If he has a relationship with Pana I don't see why they'd maintain it. If not, I can't see that they have any leverage. It's amazing that he makes up product names. -->>>

Well, it is bizarre. He told me he was in chicago, I think, showing off the black mamba. Lives literally two miles west of me, I think in the richest (and one of the smallest) city in America, Village of Golf.

heath

He calls the black version of the GS100K "the black mamba?" (stupid_look.gif)

I can't comment about his relationship with Pana. I was told all sorts of stories. I don't really think he cares what people think. He just does what he does. Some of his info is good, some of his info is---. What I do know is that he has a lot of influence in the market. That's perhaps why Pana has a love/hate relationship with him.

Regarding this new consumer HD format. It seems to me these came makers want to widen the gap even further between consumer and pro.

<<<-- Originally posted by Frank Granovski : He calls the black version of the GS100K "the black mamba?" (stupid_look.gif)

I can't comment about his relationship with Pana. I was told all sorts of stories. I don't really think he cares what people think. He just does what he does. Some of his info is good, some of his info is---. What I do know is that he has a lot of influence in the market. That's perhaps why Pana has a love/hate relationship with him.

Regarding this new consumer HD format. It seems to me these came makers want to widen the gap even further between consumer and pro. -->>>

Well, you're right, considering the fact that the next HD camera we can buy is the Varicam for $55,000 +.

heath

depending on market the problem isn't in the recording standard. the problem is in the storage standard.

if you were in professional arena sorta like indie movies level. then HD is a godsend! someone like robert rodriguez'd probably snatch all of those cams up! =). i mean this standard may have been geared towards this crowd.

but if you were only 'prosumer' (like me) or someone shooting a wedding,etc. even if that new DV recording standard comes out we're still left with where to store it? on the computer? as compressed mpg4?divx?xvid?wmv?etc.? you get what i'm saying? as long as the HD-DVD standard hasn't been hammered out yet it's hard to say how the HD-quality market will play out

<<<-- Originally posted by Joseph George : This is what this standard means for filmmaking:

The most important is the inclusion of 720/25p with 19 Mbps stream. Varicam's, stream, when converted to 720/24p, becomes about 40 Mbps. Varicam compression is based on the Sony-developed DV format.


Joseph, the majority holder in the patent rights around the DV format is Matshusita, not Sony. The DV format was a collaboration by 10 companies with Matsusita being the leader. Varicam is based on the DVCPRO format which is an extension of DV onto a professional tape medium, Metal Particle, and consideration for MetaData. I think we have had the discusion before about the data rate of the DVCPROHD at 24P vs the 19Mbs, it is no where near the same thing.

>MPEG2 is a lot more efficient compression. I'd say that the MPEG2 camcorder picture with 720/25p can be about as good as Varicam picture at 720/24p.

You are forgetting that in order to get this HDV format to work the compression is huge and in MPEG2, it is based on a GOP which does not allow for frame to frame editing without having to uncompress and thus recompress again. Also may I point out that there are no professional editing systems that honor this format at this point in time.


>There is another point, and that is that the new HD standard is not meant only for consumer products, but will start replacing pro DV and the 4:2:2 50 Mbps formats soon.

This is pure supposition by you and is absolutely untrue. The HDV format is 4:2:0 in its color sample which is a very long way from 4:2:2 50 Mbs and with the heavy compression scheme makes it a perfect consumer format, but not an HD production format..

>The Varicam will have to come down in price and the new Panasonic SDX900 will soon become obsolete.

Again, I think you are confusing the application of these HDV camcorders with where the Varicam and the SDX900 are used. Two completely different applications, with completely different sets of objectives and quality needs.

>Panasonic is probably planning on Blu-ray based HD DVD camcorder and this new HDV format would mean low cost HD that would compete with Varicam.

There is no way that this format would compete with VariCam.

Best regards,

Jan

<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden You are forgetting that in order to get this HDV format to work the compression is huge and in MPEG2, it is based on a GOP which does not allow for frame to frame editing without having to uncompress and thus recompress again.

DV, DVCPRO25, DVCPRO50, DVCPRO100, HDCAM, and IMX must all be decompressed in order to be seen on an RGB monitor. So must HDV.

DV, DVCPRO25, DVCPRO50, DVCPRO100, HDCAM, and IMX must all be decompressed and then recompressed for distribution on NTSC DVD, Blu-ray HD DVD, or D-VHS. So must HDV.


And, Premiere, Vegas Video, and FCP can be used for HDV editing.

On all your other points I agree fully.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen :

>DV, DVCPRO25, DVCPRO50, DVCPRO100, HDCAM, and IMX must all be decompressed and then recompressed for distribution on NTSC DVD, Blu-ray HD DVD, or D-VHS. So must HDV.


But Steve, you missed my point in that uncompress to recompress, and that is all of the production formats that you mention, DV, DVCPRO25, DVCPRO50, DVCPRO100, HDCAM, and IMX, are frame based codecs. HDV as well as NTSC DVD, Blu-ray HD DVD, and D-VHS are not, they all have a long GOP codec, and the compression is not a mere 5:1 as is DV, but when referencing the HDV and a couple of the others in this last string, HD signal is 994 Mbps uncompressed, HDV is recording at 19.4Mbps. There is a whole lot of compression going on.

In working with production formats, most production people I know wish to edit on a particular frame, and when working with fomats like HDV, Blu-ray, D-VHS or even the SD DVD, you are not working in frame based codecs. This is not to say that they are not good codecs, they are for their application, its just their application is not production.


>And, Premiere, Vegas Video, and FCP can be used for HDV editing.

Really, which codec is it that they are using to make this happen? Does the codec turn the video into individual frames for frame accurate intercutting?

Curious,

Jan

<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden There is a whole lot of compression going on. --->>>

That I'll certainly agree to. But, unless you've looked at the result it's hard to believe you can't SEE many negatives from it. It certainly has LESS compression problems than ATSC 1080i or 720p! Which is not what folks expected!

Also helping is that all 19Mbps is used for only 30fps. We will see more artifacts when 720p60 and 1080i come to market.


>>> In working with production formats, most production people I know wish to edit on a particular frame. <<<

Today's computers are so fast that they can compute a FULL frame from the 6 frame GOP. Basically a small buffer is kept up to date from the disk. Any single frame comes from this cache.

Vegas edits native TS. Premiere uses Aspect HD plug-in. And FCP has an MPEG-2 decoder. Plus JVC has KDD's NLE.

Aspect HD will do up to 6 streams with FX in real-time.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : That I'll certainly agree to. But, unless you've looked at the result it's hard to believe you can't SEE many negatives from it.

From this statement it is obvious to me that you and I have a different set of production values. I see way too many flaws in the picture to address it as real HD.

>It certainly has LESS compression problems than ATSC 1080i or 720p! Which is not what folks expected!

Steve, the ATSC standards do not have compression, they are standards within a table. Manufacturers have formats that record those standards, like HDCAM and DVCPROHD, these foramts have compression. Are you saying that the pictures made on this little camera has fewer artifacts that HDCAM or DVCPROHD? If so, you have got to be kidding. Did you move the camera and follow fast action? Follow a skyline at an angle?

>>> In working with production formats, most production people I know wish to edit on a particular frame. <<<

>Today's computers are so fast that they can compute a FULL frame from the 6 frame GOP. Basically a small buffer is kept up to date from the disk. Any single frame comes from this cache.

So you are saying that the edit is flawless? That it stands up to High End HD editing? Like that on the Quantel or even low end like the CineWave or Boxx Technologies?

Curious,


Jan

Jan - How do you arrive at 994 Mbps? The JVC camera is doing 1280 x 720 x 30 at 4:2:0 which is about 334 Mbps.

From 334 Mbps down to 19.8 Mbps isn't a whole lot of compression.

<<<-- Originally posted by Phil Wright : Jan - How do you arrive at 994 Mbps? The JVC camera is doing 1280 x 720 x 30 at 4:2:0 which is about 334 Mbps.

From 334 Mbps down to 19.8 Mbps isn't a whole lot of compression. -->>>

Phil,

True HD resolution starts at 994Mbs at 60P with color at 4:2:2. And if 16:1 compression isn't a lot what is? The belief that this little camera is comparable to the VariCam or HDCAM is not based on reality. I am not saying that this camera does not serve a purpose, but I feel that if you put it next to the VariCam or an HDCAM you will see exactly what I mean.

FWIW,

Jan

Jan,

I guess I missed the memo that defined "True HD". My bad.

But anyway you made the comparison between 994Mbs of "True HD" and the 19.8Mbs of the JVC camera and then described it as a "whole lot of compression". This is not even remotely a valid comparison.

And 16:1 isn't a lot of compression for MPEG-2. Especially on a larger image size (compared to SD) where there is a lot of redundancy which makes it easier to compress without inducing more artifacting.

Having said all of that I wasn't making any claim one way or the other that a prosumer HDV camera is comparable to a piece of broadcast gear. I just don't see the point in distorting the issue.

Phil

<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden

Steve, the ATSC standards do not have compression, they are standards within a table.

Yes, but there are standards for data rates that are used. This is typically 19.4Mbps for 1080i -- only a tiny bit more than the JVC at 19Mbps.

>>> Did you move the camera and follow fast action? Follow a skyline at an angle? <<<

Absolutely perfect -- no compression artifacts at all. No aliasing on diagonals.


>>> So you are saying that the edit is flawless? That it stands up to High End HD editing? Like that on the Quantel or even low end like the CineWave or Boxx Technologies? <<<

By flawless do you mean frame-accurate? Then the answer is YES.

FireWire to disk. Color correction, titles, FX, all work as usual. One decompression to YUV -- just like any DV-based system. All FX in uncompressed YUV domain. One re-encode from YUV at the end before FireWire to D-VHS.

Works exactly like DVCPRO25 or DVCPRO50 going to DVDs from camcorder with FireWire. All that's different is the codec.

<<<-- Originally posted by Phil Wright : Jan,
I just don't see the point in distorting the issue.


But that is where this whole silly thread started which was the distortion that DV and the Varicam were competitive. And that is where I couldn't let that idea stand.

Anyhow this is my last comment on the issue.

Best regards,

Jan