FCP 5.1 (Universal) with Canon XLH1 24p

I have a Macbook pro laptop and the latest version of FCP 5.1 (Universal). The problem I have is that FCP 5.1 does not support HDV 24p I thought it will before I bought it when I choose Log and Capture. Is there a work around until Apple comes up with FCP 6 and hopefully it will solve the problem? I desperately need to capture the footage I shot on my Canon XLH1 in HDV 24p in FCP 5.1.

Please advise.

Gilbert.

My question was very tough I called around and all the big vendors could not answer my question it is funny how these big companies over market HD but they don't have the technology to support it. Probably the wisest thing to stick to SD till the big vendors figure out in a couple of years the solution. But for now I am stuck with my HD camera and FCP 5.1. The only solution I was able to come up with is to capture the footage that I shot on my Canon XLH1 in 24p in iMovie which is very ironic because it is a low end editing tool but Final Cut Pro HD version could not capture it. Anyway, I was successful to capture the footage in iMovie and now I am in the process to convert it to Quicktime version and I am planning to edit in FCP 5.1 after that I will let you know how it goes. If anybody find a better solution let me know.

Cheers,

Gilbert.

Even with SD, I do my captures with iMovie anyway. I don't have a DV deck, so I capture the whole tape, then cut the footage and put titlecard/slates in and export full quality to pull into FCP. It's a great way to do dailies and use as a capture/logging station.

Thank you Cole for your reply. For me it seems it is not working with iMovie I was able to capture but when export to quick time with Full Quality option it freezes. I guess there is no solution for now we have to wait for the big vendors to come up with a solution.

Perhaps you should try HDVxDV demo. It captures 720 24p from JVC camcorder, so perhaps it will work in 1080 ?
http://www.dvdxdv.com/HDVxDVsite/download.html

Apple has a workstation in the CanonDV booth at NAB, demonstrating a preview of the forthcoming update for FCP v5.1 which will natively support Canon's 24F Mode.

It works like a charm.

This update for Final Cut Pro v5.1 will appear as a free software download (for users who have updated to v5.1) under the "Software Update" menu in the Apple menu under Mac OS X.

While no ETA has been given for this update, one could assume that it is forthcoming in the near future.

- don

Don,

Does that mean I need to go to Final Cut Studio for Intel Macs? Nuts...

heath

The universal will work on PPC as well. It's a semi-nominal upgrade fee from FCP5.0

Thank you Don for the update. I am looking forward to the patch hopefully it is going to be soon.

Cheers,

Gilbert.

Everyone,

Let me re-phrase my post (I was VERY tired after an event at the local film festival):

Do I have to buy Final Cut for Intel Macs even though I have a Power Mac G5 Quad? Will I be able to get any sort of updates for FCP 5.0.4? Or do I need to have 5.1?

Thanks,

heath

If you are currently on 5.0.4 and want to upgrade to 5.1, you will need to pay the upgrade price to do so. You will recieve the identical software that you would get if you were running an intel mac, the software is built to run on both hardware platforms, hence the name Universal.

But will any updates to FCP be only for the Universal version, or will it also be for the 5.0 series (PowerPC version only)?

heath

only Universal, the PPC only stuff will be no longer developed as it would take separate development teams to support both platforms. This is the same transition as from the 68k to the PPC. There were fat binaries around for years until most of the 68k macs had been upgraded and the rest became non-cost effective to support/develop for.

Dang...I guess I have to upgrade, though I won't have an Intel Mac for at least another two years. Tiger has dual-updates for both Intel and PPC Macs...

heath

Unless you're looking for a reason to upgrade, the software will run on both platforms...it's universal.

I understand that there is a problem (very slow) in editing HD1 footage in FCP.
Lumiere say that they now support the Canon XL HD1 but are unable to output direct back to the camera. Surely is not the output code the same as the Sony Z1 1080i?
I would like to migrate to FCP but not if there is a problem with the HD1 footage.

Any ideas folks?

Ray

I had very bad experiences with Lumiere HD. In stead you better use DVHS-cap and MPEG Streamclip (both free available).
Testeing befor changing your workflow is strongly advised.

How are you guys editing the 24/30f footage in FCP 5.1?
What sequence presets or are you treating it as normal 1080i60?

(Camera: Canon XH A1)
Thank guys.

FCP 5.1.2 has presets for the Canon 24F setting...

FCP 5.1.2 has presets for the Canon 24F setting...

And to add to that, the 24f preset can be adjusted to 30f and saved as a custom Easy Setup.

Perfect- thanks for that info- good to know.

Dave- I've duplicated the 24F seq preset but I can't make a Quicktime Compressor setting that matches for the sequence in FCP 5.1- so the video frame doesn't match......oddly enough I'm using a standard 1080i60 seq preset and I can edit w/o problem but I'm guessing this is NOT the ideal setup....FCP gives the option for 24F but not 30F- how are you guys editing the 30f stuff?

I am using FCP 5.04 (waiting for my crossgrade from Apple) and am starting a new project that was shot on Canon XL H1s at 24F. Will my current software support this camera? If not, is there something I can download that will help? Do I just need to wait for my crossgrade (this is what I've heard)?

Thanks.

Just gonna have to wait.

MPEGSTREAMCLIP can get things working, but the path takes lots of transcoding time and recompresses your material. If you can wait, do it.

However, if you DO choose to go via MPEG Streamclip, you can transcode it into DVCProHD and make life easier for yourself while editing by avaoiding HDV altogether - although you will then have large files (about 1 gig per minute).

I recently did this with a low budget feature shot XLH1 at 24f and it looks terrific. I used the SDI port on the Canon and went into a Blackmagic card.

If you want to take this further I will send you my workflow, or you can look it up in one of my posts of a few months ago.

Best wishes,

Harry.

Has anyone noticed a stobe-like or almost studdering look when viewing 1080 24f footage that is moving, especially when viewing on a SD-DVD with the A1? It's almost annoying- like I have chosen the wrong frame rate out of the timeline. When exporting 24f footage from FCP to QT for DVD Studio Pro, should I keep the frame rate 24, 23.98, or 29.97? And when I plan on exporting 60i footage from a 1080i60 timeline, what is the ideal frame rate to export for SD-DVD? Maybe this is an inhearent trait of 24f, but I just want to make sure I have my settings correct.

note: I had NR1 selected in the custom preset of the camera. I don't see ghosting, but do you think NR1 could be partially responsible for this stobe-like studder effect?

Do you mean a stutter during pans and tilts, or with a fixed frame but the subject moving a lot within the frame? Is it in the original clip, or only in rendered files?

I ask those questions because one possible explanation is panning with image stabilization on. I did that with the XH A1 recently and was surprised after I captured the footage how much a hand-held pan stuttered due to the image stabilization, the same as if I was panning on a tripod. Not a fault of the camera, as the image stabilization was doing what it was meant to do, but a reminder that it isn't really best to do steady pans and tilts using image stab.

Don't know if that explains your problem, but thought it was worth a shot.

It's a studder during pans and tilts and on the original tape and on the timeline.
Maybe it is the image stabilizer??? It's almost like a jumpiness every 1/2 second or so.

I'll try pans and tilts w/o IS on.


thanks pete

I have a client, an agency, that has actually asked for a 24p look for a commercial... My plan is to shoot 24f HDV and edit in the FCP 24p timeline (in order to have a HD version available for possible future use) - no problem with that, I've done it with success and exported mpeg_2 files for DVD using Compressor... (But I have not played with 24f all that much).

This project, however, needs to be delivered in BetaSP for local television stations. The post house where I have my dubs made does not have the ability to play a 24f HDV tape, so I will need to output SD to DVCAM.

I know I can copy the edit and paste it in to a 60i SD timeline in order to add the pulldown, then redo the graphics, and Print to Video...

Is there a better workflow option (FCP) to output a 24p project?

Moved from XL H1 to FCP.

I'm experiencing a few really strange problems with 24F HDV footage from my Canon XL H1, which Final Cut Pro is supposed to support as of 5.1.2. Here are the biggest two:

Problem1: Video jumps back on playback

When stepping through a clip frame-by-frame, the video and audio are perfectly in sync. But when I hit play, it plays about 7 to 10 frames earlier in the footage, throwing the video and audio out of sync.

This is true EVEN WHEN A CLIP IS EDITED INTO A SEQUENCE. If I step through, mark an in, and cut that into a timeline, it cuts it in on the proper frame, when stepping through the sequence. But when the sequence is played back, at each cut it plays back an earlier portion of the video, by 7 to 10 frames. In other words, when played back, there is video in the sequence that should not be there, and that is not there when the sequence is stepped-through frame by frame.

I did a few further tests: When I export a Quicktime movie, or export using Compressor, the sequence is good and all the cuts are proper in the exported files. But when I export using "Quicktime conversion," the wrong video frames are exported. Bizarre.

What the devil is going on here?


Problem 2: The timecode shifts

I digitized a few clips from some tapes, and everything was okay for a while (except for the aforementioned problem). The timecodes on all my clips were proper as I worked with the clips for a good half-hour. I saved and quit, and then started up again, and found, to my shock, that the timecode had CHANGED on my digitized 24F clips. The timecode had actually shifted backwards on each clip by a random amount, ranging from 40 seconds to 1 minute. Some shifted back to timecodes that don't exist on the original tapes. One clip, for example, originally had a Media Start of 12:00:30:10, and it shifted back to 11:59:43:17 (something like that). This happened with every single 24F clip that I digitized. Interestingly, though, the 30F clips from the same tapes remained solid and unchanged.

What the devil is going on here? Has anyone else experienced this?

I should note that I'm working on a Powerbook G4 1.5GHz and 768MB RAM, OS X 10.4.8, FCP 5.1.2. (not the proper amount of RAM for HD in FCP, but that shouldn't cause these problems, should it?)

I did one project using HDV clips and will never again. I know some people have it working for them, but it didn't for me. Clips did very strange things like you mentioned...some showed being unrendered, but only half the clip was unrendered with no effects on it! Very strange stuff. (Mac Quad G5, 2 gigs ram, Disk array)

We're back to doing everything DVCPro HD. Convergent Devices box arrives this week so we can have timecode, too.

KW

Steve,

What I do is after editing the HD sequence, I save a FCP master file, self contained. From there I downconvert in Compressor to whatever codec I need (usualy 10 bit Beta SP) and put it in a Beta SP timeline. I make sure the clip is checked off as Anamorphic so it will letterbox in the timeline, then render, then print to Beta SP.

24F is not supported yet on Final Cut Pro, only 60i and 30F (not sure about 25F, is someone can verify).

I edit HDV daily on Final Cut Pro 5.1.2 with no problems; I even convert Sony HDV 50i footage shot with CineFrame 25 to 23.98 fps without a problem, via Cinema Tools.

I think the next version will support removing the pulldown on both the V1u and Canon HDV cameras (24F), and will hopefully support 24F, period.

If you're trying to work with something that isn't supported by the latest versions of any software, try some workarounds. For FCP, try www.lumierehd.com.

heath

I should note that I'm working on a Powerbook G4 1.5GHz and 768MB RAM, OS X 10.4.8, FCP 5.1.2. (not the proper amount of RAM for HD in FCP, but that shouldn't cause these problems, should it?)
You need a LOT more RAM and HDV is taxing stuff to edit, but Final Cut handles it better than any other NLE, in terms of native m2t. We have a G4 where I work, dual 700 or 800 mhz, and it's a bit slow with newer versions of FCP, because it's optimized for 64 bit processors and you can see it causing sluggishness.

If it continues to be a problem, try www.lumierehd.com like I mentioned, but an increase in RAM will definitely help. Also, keep your systems up-to-date and well-maintained. www.macosxcocktail.com and DiskWarrior (www.alsoft.com) are great for doing this and D.W. is the best for saving a computer that I've seen.

heath

Actually, Apple says that the XL H1 is supported using the 24F and 25F modes in their document here : http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/Final_Cut_Pro_5.0_lbn_z.pdf under the "HDV Format Support and Easy Setups" heading.

I've been using FCP 5.1.2 since it was released to capture 24F from an XL H1 and have had no problems so far. FCP even captures exactly like it's laid to tape, and that is as 24 seperate frames per second. Now, I'm not sure if this is a big deal or not, but I've always just setup using the HDV 1080p/24 Easy Setup setting. I believe that this defaults to capturing using the Apple Intermediate Codec, which has given me no problems.

Unfortunately, I've never encountered either of these problems. I'm not sure if the amount of RAM would cause it, but I've even been able to run FCP in my Intel Mac Mini, with 2 Gig of RAM, and it works there just as well as on the Mac Pro I usually edit on.


[Edit: To fix on of the F modes listed at the beginning.]

I don't think that's right, as I've talked to Apple directly, though that was a few months ago. My friend tried using 1080p24 for both 24F and V1u 24p footage with no success. That setting is for Sony's F330 and F350. I also tried capturing 24F footage on my system with no luck.

Both the 24p (V1u) and 24F footage is packaged in a 60i stream, but unlike the V1u, the Canon and Apple's FCP are still having communication issues. I'll contact Apple again and see if something changed since I talked to them. Not sure which version of FCP I was using when I spoke to them.

UPDATE: See my post below (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=600928&postcount=8) with some minor corrections. Sorry for mixing up 2:3 pulldown with 3:2 pull up.

Heath

Well, we know that 24F is _NOT_ laid down in a 60i stream, because if it was, then standard HDV decks would be able to read the signal, and all us Canon owners would have decks we could use! The V1U's 24P is recorded in a 60i stream, and thus the tapes can be played back on standard HDV decks.

While I have heard that FCP 5.1.2 will not capture from the V1U (something odd about how it's laid in that 60i stream), myself and and several other people who own Canon 24F camera's have had no problems using FCP 5.1.2 to capture 24F. We've discussed this over at xlcinema.com, where we used to have discussions about workarounds on getting footage into FCP.

Call Apple if you feel you must. The Apple document I linked to will be proof enough for me, especially since it lists the Canon XL H1 specifically when talking about support for 24F and 25F. Not to mention the fact that I've captured with my own systems from 24F.

Heath, I love the info you provide and respect you a lot. However, you're off base here, dude! :) Maybe calling Apple and checking with them, will provide solid info (that their own docs don't?). And if the person says that 24F from the Canon's are not supported, then why does it work for me and others, and why does Apple claim it to work in a public doc?

sorry, got my wires crossed on 2:3 pulldown and 3:2 pull up. Check out this page:

http://www.dvinfo.net/canonxlh1/articles/article06.php

and specifically this:

"When the XL H1 is set to Frame recording, the CCDs are actually clocked at 24 frames per second. The video signal remains at 24fps as it is passed from the CCD block to the baseband LSI, and through the HD Codec LSI. Only when it reaches the recording output stage is it resampled to 60i via a 3:2 pull-up method."

Adam Wilt (http://adamwilt.com/) hasn't explained it yet, and not many people know the secrets of the XL H1, etc., and how 24F and 30F work.

As for the V1u, you can capture 24p footage in Final Cut 5.1.2, but you can't remove the pulldown yet. Only Sony Vegas can remove the pulldown so far, but I won't be surprised if most support it soon.

I'll call Apple and see if maybe I called them last BEFORE the 5.1.2 release last year. Could be they said no on 5.1's release.

heath

"Only when it reaches the recording output stage is it resampled to 60i via a 3:2 pull-up method."

Adam Wilt (http://adamwilt.com/) hasn't explained it yet, and not many people know the secrets of the XL H1, etc., and how 24F and 30F work.

As for the V1u, you can capture 24p footage in Final Cut 5.1.2, but you can't remove the pulldown yet. Only Sony Vegas can remove the pulldown so far, but I won't be surprised if most support it soon.

Maybe I'm confused here, but isn't the A1 recording 24p to tape, and then only adding the 3:2 on analog component playback - hence the term "recording output stage". I thought this was one of the big differences from the V1, which actually records 3:2 60i to tape. So FCP should not need to remove any pulldown for 24f footage.

I'll call Apple and see if maybe I called them last BEFORE the 5.1.2 release last year. Could be they said no on 5.1's release.

from the Final Cut Pro Late Breaking News PDF for 5.1.2 (http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/Final_Cut_Pro_5.0_lbn_z.pdf):

HDV Format Support and Easy Setups
Final Cut Pro 5.1.2 includes native support and corresponding Easy Setups for the
following HDV formats:

720p24 and 720p25 (JVC GY-HD100 ProHD camcorder)

1080p24 and 1080p25 (Canon XL H1 HDV camcorder); also called 1080F24 and 1080F25

I have two thoughts on this...If it's shooting 24F (24 full frames), you'd get more than 60 minutes on a 60i tape (all tapes are 60i by default, but you can lay pretty much any signal on there). Unless Canon is using a different kind of signal going to tape, something more "robust," which makes 60 minutes take up the tape vs. around 65-70 minutes shot at 24 fps. IE, in 24F, you'd get more than 60 minutes on tape, around 4% more.

Does that make sense with the "more robust signal?" A DSR-11 Sony DV/DVCAM deck defaults to DVCAM when you first plug it in. I forgot to switch it over and dubbed a 40 minute project to a 60 minute DV tape (shot in minidv). Because it went to tape in DVCAM mode, that 40 minute project took up the entire tape!

heath

Evan,

That link didn't work.

heath

ps-I'll borrow a friend's XL H1 and use an old tape I still have of 24F footage and try it out.

We struggled with this recently on a big project. We were trying to get actual 24P (or 24F) out of some footage shot on the H1-24F. If memory serves me correctly, we tried HD SDI and it was 60i. We tried a Convergent Devices box...no go...still 60i. The only way we could get true 24P/F out of it was to capture via HDV into FCP and then output it back out using 24P/F.

I think I have this right. It was a nightmare, so it's been purged from my brain.

Why can't someone just put out a deck that supports Canon's most expensive camera and all of it's frame rates? :-)

KW

That link didn't work.


odd... here's where I found it: http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/apple/finalcutpro512.html

click on the detailed info link at the bottom and it redirects to the pdf I linked before (maybe they just don't allow direct linking to the pdf).

As far as run times on tapes are concerned I think it's a mistake to say that all tapes are 60i by default. The tape is just a magnetic media onto which any signal could be recorded. If the transport runs at the standard DV/HDV speed then the run time of the tape will be the same regardless of the signal that's recorded onto it.

If canon is in fact recording a 24p signal within the standard 25Mbs HDV bandwidth then it would simply mean they are applying less compression per individual frame, as well as avoiding potential interlaced compression artifacts. However, this would also make the signal incompatible with any other HDV deck which expects to find a 60i stream on the tape - which seems to be exactly what's happening.

If memory serves me correctly, we tried HD SDI and it was 60i. We tried a Convergent Devices box...no go...still 60i. The only way we could get true 24P/F out of it was to capture via HDV into FCP and then output it back out using 24P/F.

My A1 manual specifically says the output from both the SDI (on the G1, same manual for both) & Component terminal is down-converted to 60i (using 2:3 pulldown for 24f), but that output via firewire is progressive, so that would seem to match with what you're describing.

Yes, sounds right. It's not a worry unless you need true 24P for either going to another tape format (which we were...going to the SONY deck to match other footage that was 24P) or doing a filmout.

Good luck.

That link worked and I saw it. Thanks, Evan.

I talked to Apple, as well...they said unless you read about it, that's the problem--it's not labeled as 24F in FCP, so not too many non-XL H1 users know about it.

I'm going to try and get an XL H1 and capture the footage and analyze it, then go back to tape. I want to see if the clip is 24F or 29.97 fps.

heath

Haven't had any time to really shoot/capture much to check this out but I just ran a quick capture of a few seconds of 24f footage through DVHSCap. Looking at the raw m2t file in MPEG Streamclip it reports:

Video Tracks:
2064 MPEG-2, 1440 × 1080, 16:9, 23.976 fps, 25.00 Mbps, lower field first

So I don't know exactly what to make of that - visually it appears to be true 24p footage, Stepping through frame by frame there's clearly no pulldown or interlacing visible in the file, and there are only 24 frames a second. The 'lower field first' is odd though - I tried a second clip and it came out saying 'upper field first', so I'm assuming it's an error in MPEG Streamclip and not an accurate representation of the video.

If canon is in fact recording a 24p signal within the standard 25Mbs HDV bandwidth then it would simply mean they are applying less compression per individual frame, as well as avoiding potential interlaced compression artifacts. However, this would also make the signal incompatible with any other HDV deck which expects to find a 60i stream on the tape - which seems to be exactly what's happening.

This is exactly what seems to be happening. The 24p signal is being recorded as 24 actual frames a second, using less compression, which does in fact account for the signal incompatibility with other HDV products. If the signal was being laid down in 60i, then we'd be able to use standard decks, much like with the DVX and XL2.

Barlow Elton has played around with the HD-SDI stuff more than any other H1 owner that I know of, and he says that 24F is laid down into 60i when going through HD-SDI, and that once recorded, you need to remove the pulldown to bring it back to 24p. Barlow also mentioned that FCP seems to be able to write 24F back out to tape. So if you capture 24F, edit and then need to go back to tape, that FCP will write out 24F back to tape correctly. I haven't tried this, as I haven't had a need to go back to tape yet! :)

As for DVHSCap, M2T's and MPEGStreamClip, there could be a glitch in either DVHSCap or StreamClip. Everything that I've captured with DVHSCap and bring into StreamClip that was shot 24F, shows upper field first every time. Maybe DVHSCap flagged something wrong. Maybe StreamClip read the flags wrong. Hard to say really.

At this point, it's pretty obvious to me, and most other H1 and A1 owners that 24F is laying down 24 distinct frames per second to tape. And at least to me, it's obvious that FCP is able to capture 24F using 5.1.2 with no problems, when using the Easy Setup for 1080p24.

Curtis,

Right-click on a captured 24F clip and select Cinema Tools, then select analyze clip. Does it say 24p, 23.98 fps, 24F or 29.97 fps? If it's 29.97 fps, see if you can conform it to 23.98 fps or at least remove the pulldown, if there is one (and it's 29.97 fps). Try outputting it from FCP as a 23.98 fps QT Movie or QT Conversion.

Let us know what happens.

thanks,

heath