I've posed a question for lighting in a greenscreen scenario and was recommended this as a good solution: http://www.pclightingsystems.com/DF/11500-kit.html

This is the system I'm leaning toward--especially for greenscreen. However, I won't be just doing chroma keying. I also will be doing a regular family show (like story time on the living room couch with the kids, reading to the kids, telling stories, etc.).

I plan on having the green screen "set" dedicated to one wall, and the family/cozy house shots on another wall mostly. All in the same room.

As I described in another post, I live in HOTTTT phoenix and therefore need to use fluorescents--no halogens if I don't need them, which is actually part of my question.

Do you feel that the setup above (see link) would serve both purposes--greenscreen+subject AND family room story-time scenes? Would the florescents make it look too "officey," or can I mimic tungsten's "warm" look exactly by adjusting my white balance? Would I need any real tungsten lights for the family scenes or is it okay to go all florescent?

Would this light system serve both purposes fine, or are there other considerations that I am overlooking?

A concern I have with this system is that I will be turning everything flat with so much light. Is this a valid concern? I'm sure I could always use less, but this is where I hope you all can assist!

Thanks again.

You can light with all fluorescents, but it's more difficult to get any modling when using just softlights. When I was looking at fluorescents, I didn't hear any good things about that company. My preference would be to go with individual lights from Coollights or Flolights.

that's a serious amount of light. i have to say i'd like to see what a couple of 4k equivalents do to a room...

i agree with bill. i don't know about that particular company in the link, but i think you may be better served putting together a kit of your own. inevitably, you're going to want some hard lights in your kit, at least for backlights and accent lighting.

on a side note: bill, i read your review of the flolight led 500s over at dvfreelancer. thanks for the great read and taking the time to put that together. i think i'm finally ready to pull the trigger on a couple of them, but wanted to ask how they were holding up for you. are you still happy with them?

You could start a tanning salon. :-)

that's a serious amount of light. i have to say i'd like to see what a couple of 4k equivalents do to a room...

i agree with bill. i don't know about that particular company in the link, but i think you may be better served putting together a kit of your own. inevitably, you're going to want some hard lights in your kit, at least for backlights and accent lighting.


Can you actually make fluorescents act as "hard lights?" Or do you have to go the tungsten route?

Could something like this act as a hardlight? http://www.flolight.com/fb110.htm

No, that's a basic fluorescent light. I have shot lots of interviews using just fluorescents, and if you get them in close enough, you can get all the modeling you want, but for larger areas it would be difficult.

As to the question about the 500LED lights--yes I still like them. No problems. One thing I've come to like is that they are "harder" than fluorescents and I can use them almost as I would a fresnel. Notice I said almost. They don't replace fresnels or other hard lights, but they are more directional and focused than an equivalent fluorescent. If you use them in close for an interview, say 6-8 feet away, as you would a 2-bulb fluorescent, then you need to diffuse them or the light will be a bit harsh.

The really cool thing about these lights is that I have 3 of them in a small canvas bag I got from http://www.vtarmynavy.com



I put a piece of cardboard in the bottom, and at present have the lights separated by bubblewrap. I plan to glue some 1/2" foam to something stiff to make separators to keep the lights from rubbing against each other, although that won't really hurt them. I have a lightstand bag with 3 stands in it and can carry this bag with lights and the stand bag in one hand--so basically I can walk into a location with all my lighting needs in one hand for an interview shoot. I also got some small canvas bags to keep the power supplies and their cords in to keep them from getting jumbled up.

When I switched from a 2/3" chip to a 1/3" chip camera, I got into small and light for most of the shoots I do these days, and these 500LED lights fit right into that. I still use fresnels and open face lights when necessary. There's no one light that works well for everything, but for location interviews and things like that, a set of 3 of these 500LEDs or the equivalent fluorescents would be just about perfect.

lloyd,

here is a 650w equivalent fresnel at coollights. it looks pretty nice, the lamp generates no heat, and the price is pretty much on par with high quality tungsten fresnels.

http://www.coollights.biz/clmf0150-cool-lights-fresnel-p-63.html

bill,

thanks. yeah, the portability is what i really like about them. well, that and the 40w draw :).

lloyd,

here is a 650w equivalent fresnel at coollights. it looks pretty nice, the lamp generates no heat, and the price is pretty much on par with high quality tungsten fresnels.

http://www.coollights.biz/clmf0150-cool-lights-fresnel-p-63.html



Looks cool, but I'm not sure if I fully understand all this yet. Is this a florescent light, or just the equivalent of the color temp. of a florescent?

You say there's minimal heat, so I assume, then, that when you say it's a 650w equivalent, that means it's a florescent that is comparable to a tungsten 650w but with different color temp.? Is that correct?

After reading it more, I understand that it is NOT a florescent, correct? But you can buy it with different bulbs to copy whatever color temp. you want, is that right?

So if I have a mostly florescent fill lights, I can order this unit with a bulb near the same color temp as my florescent set. Is this correct?

lloyd,

richard a. of cool lights frequents this board, and would be able to address specifics regarding this light. the 150 in the link is technically an hmi light, and it looks like you can get both daylight and tungsten balanced bulbs for the light from cool lights.

all that aside, i would also make sure to allocate some resources to reflectors, flags, and other light controls.

It's an HMI, but the cheaper though equally efficient lamp. It is not as cool as a fluorescent but won't get as hot as the equivalent tungsten fresnel. This light would be a great addition to a set of fluorescents.

lloyd,

all that aside, i would also make sure to allocate some resources to reflectors, flags, and other light controls.

Thanks for your help on this. Pardon the ignorance, but what are flags? And what do you mean by light controls (dimmers?)?

To understand what this unit does, you must understand the difference between hard and soft light and what the uses of both are.

If I were making a DVD on film lighting the first chapters would be on hard and soft light and what they are used for and how you produce them. Hard light gives you definition and projection when you need it. More well-defined shadows. Soft light gives you diffused or lessened shadows and does not have the throw or projection and therefore features are less defined--but sometimes you want that. They both have their place in any studio or lighting kit. That's why we wanted to offer both hard and soft light and both in energy efficient choices too.

Metal halide is the "fluorescent of hard lights" as I like to say. Gives you a 4 to 1 leverage over tungsten for wattage draw to light output--like fluorescent. But gives you a hard light--unlike fluorescent which can never be hard. You can soften up a hard light but can't harden a soft light.

You simply can't find a more cost effective hard light substitute at this time. While the fixture gets hot, a CDM bulb puts out a cool light because there simply isn't the infrared component of tungsten in the light itself. This is why tungsten lights are used as the basis of heat lamps as well as for our uses too--so much infrared output.

What the CDM 150 is is actually a more advanced version of an HMI without the hot restart capability. The CDM bulb's life is more in the 6000 to 8000 hour range and HMI is in the 750 to 1000 hour range. In addition, you can get color temperature choices whereas you cannot with HMI. HMI is always daylight range and thats it. I also like the fact that the obligatory ignitor that you find with all metal halide variants can be kept in the ballast with the CDM class and thus, replacement of a defective unit usually means a ballast swap out only whereas with an HMI, the ignitor is in the head and you never really know which is defective so you have to swap out both head and ballast.

In addition to all this, we can get the ballasts more inexpensively and thus the fixture itself is more inexpensive too. Hope this helps.

Thanks, I really appreciate it. But now I have some follow-up questions.

If the CDM is so much better in your opinion, why is it less money than the HMI?

Thanks for your help on this. Pardon the ignorance, but what are flags? And what do you mean by light controls (dimmers?)?

Flags are like barndoors except usually larger. Soft light is usually soft light because it is being emanated from a large surface area as opposed to a hard light which is usually emanating from a small and concentrated point of light. Because of this and the diffusion effect which scatters the light more, it requires a much bigger barndoor then you can practically fit on a fixture to control where the light is going. For this reason, flags (or eggcrate filters are another way) are like large pieces of foam core or some flat, thin, non-reflective and opaque material that can be placed on the sides of the light to control its side spill. An eggcrate filter can do the same thing too but there is some loss of light. This filter directs the light only forward like a "garden hose" effect and keeps side spill to a minimum as well.

Flags are just one kind of light control. You have eggcrates, as I mentioned, scrims which are like screens of varying density which are used to cut light intensity, diffusion materials of various kinds and grades which are used to diffuse hard light.

Dimmers are another. Of course, with ballast-oriented lighting like fluorescent, HMI/CDM you must have a ballast that dims to be able to do that and can't dim them with an external dimmer like you can tungsten.

Thanks, I really appreciate it. But now I have some follow-up questions.

If the CDM is so much better in your opinion, why is it less money than the HMI?

HMI has classically been expensive because a very few companies controlled the production of the fixtures and its mainly used in stage/studio lighting which is a very small market. Only one company actually produces an "HMI" bulb and that is Osram. Other clone bulbs exist but it would be technically incorrect to call then an "HMI" since that is a registered trademark of Osram.

In fact its always incorrect to call any fixture that uses HMI or its clones an "HMI" and would be better known as as a metal halide fixture. Getting people to change will never happen though as its engrained into our industry to call them that. HMI is in fact simply another flavor of metal halide as is CDM. HMI has a hot restart capability which means it can relight instantly whereas CDM needs to cool down for about 5m or so before you can relight it. That is one of the main differences and is mostly behind the life issue. HMI's hot restart is murderously hard on bulbs, ignitors and ballasts and a price has to be paid to have that capability.

In addition, CDM happens to be more available on the market for commercial use in stores and warehouse lighting and as such will therefore be more widely available and less expensive than HMI derivatives which are a very specialized class mainly for use in the entertaiment field. Most large studios in Hollywood capable of buying HMI class fixtures are operating off of megabudgets and are not concerned with the price of a fixture, the bulb price nor about bulb life. I think most aren't particularly concerned about energy efficiency either. They choose HMI fixtures because of the ability to fight or simulate daylight when they need it. They also like to be able to relight instantly too since they are most concerned about the time vs money issue. Thus, perhaps another reason why price hasn't come down on the HMI class of fixtures.

In addition, CDM happens to be more available on the market for commercial use in stores and warehouse lighting and as such will therefore be more widely available and less expensive than HMI derivatives which are a very specialized class mainly for use in the entertaiment field.

Is the light coming out of them virtually the same (watt for watt)?

Also, what's the largest CDM you guys carry (watts)? I saw a 650w on your site I think, but is there anything larger?

Is the light coming out of them virtually the same (watt for watt)?

Also, what's the largest CDM you guys carry (watts)? I saw a 650w on your site I think, but is there anything larger?

We have two classes of hard lights for sale: tungsten (very conventional) and CDM/HMI. Tungsten is just what it is: inexpensive to buy but more expensive to operate over time given relatively short bulb life, hot fixture, hot light output, requires a fair amount of air conditioning to displace the heat, etc. There is no ballast in these units. Just a bulb and the fixture. The bulb operates directly off of your line voltage in your house/studio. You can dim it with an external dimmer too.

The CDM / HMI class are like fluorescent in that they use a ballast as a special power supply for the bulb which has a discharge chamber in it and when it ignites, the chamber is where all the lighting action happens. Without the ballast and whatever capabilities it adds (like dimming) you can't make the fixture work so the two are inseparable. The ballast / bulb combo buys you a four to one leverage in general for energy use: a 150w CDM is roughly equal to a 650w tungsten light for instance. Said another way: the CDM 150 draws 150w to put out about the same light as the 650w tungsten fresnel which is really drawing 650w and radiating 650w worth of heat too. The 150 radiates around 150w of heat so its a bit hotter than a fluorescent but also more intense and capable of better projection and definition too. The light from both is very hard and of the same general quality but the CDM 150 is capable of "daylight" color without gel whereas the 650w tungsten needs a gel to make it daylight and looses a bunch of light output in the process (as much as two stops).

Some people feel there is a difference in the quality of light between a tungsten unit and a discharge unit like fluorescent or metal halide. That's a whole other subject relating to the spectrum of light it puts out, etc. You have many people using fluorescent or HMI/CDM every day though and liking what they do so it is purely a personal preference to prefer tungsten use over discharge. In addition, there can be some green tint effects for those that use actual film in their productions and those people use a minus green filter to filter out the effect. For those using digital mediums, the capability to white balance keeps any green issues minimized to practically nil.

The largest CDM we currently carry is a 150w but I also have a 575w HMI in beta test right now limited release and a future 1200w hmi coming as well as larger CDM units like a 250w and 400w.

Richard, it's starting to make a lot more sense now. Thanks for taking the time to explain it.

Are the CDM150's the biggest CDM you have? Lumen for lumen, they are close to the equivalent of a 650w tungsten then, right? Do you have a CDM equivalent of a 1k tungsten?

Also, Richard, you mentioned the CDM needs a special dimmer. Is that included in the ballast provided with the light? Can the CDMs be dimmed down?

I would add that I have purchased from Richard and the quaity of the stuff he sells it top notch. His products are good value for the money. No cheap plastic stuff.

Yes, the 150 CDM is the biggest in that class (for now) with 250 and 400 to come at some point later. And, yes they seem to be about lumen per lumen the same output as a 650w. You can't dim the current models though. I could have done that but it would add quite a bit to the cost. We can offer a more expensive ballast at some point in the future as an option, but for now we thought keeping the cost down was an important feature. Even with the more expensive ballasts you can't dim metal halide of any kind including HMI beyond 50%--its just a limitation of the technology. Any fixture that claims to dim more than that has some other trickery, usually some kind of mechanical shutter system or some such thing. What you would probably see from us would be a 1/2 intensity switch or some similar arrangement.

Ok, thanks again. Is it possible to "dim" a light like that with some gels or something without loosing the "hardness" of the light like with diffusion?

Yes--that's what scrims are for.

Bill, Richard, and others... you guys are awesome! Thanks for all your help with this.

With scrims, just the intensity of the light is lowered, but not the color temp?

Right, all "mechanical" methods of dimming (like scrims or diffusion material) are color temperature neutral whereas most all electrical dimming will entail some color temperature change.

Okay, so I think I have this all figured out now. I appreciate all the input from everyone. Now that I think I have all the differences figured out, I'd like to know what you recommend me getting.

I have basically two sets.

1. One head-to-toe greenscreen
2. "fireside chat" with stories being read to two kids in a living room.

Now that I know I want florescents and CDM/HMI type lighting, what should I buy exactly and how many? Would posting a picture of the "set" and the talents be helpful?

THANK YOU!!!!

Probably wouldn't hurt to see a picture or at least know the size of the area. That way it would be easier to recommend a certain quantity of lights.

Probably wouldn't hurt to see a picture or at least know the size of the area. That way it would be easier to recommend a certain quantity of lights.

I posted them on this thread. http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=114347

Thanks.