I have an hd100 and I hear that one shouldn't edit in hdv that it should be captured in hdv and converted into a loseless format and then edited. What is the best format to convert it to for optimal quality?

You'll probably have a lot of people recommend Cineform. I'm using Aspect HD in Premiere Pro and feel it's worth every penny. Aspect HD allows me to edit footage from the HD100 in real time on a computer that's below Cineform's minimum specifications (they recommend at least a 2.8GHz Pentium 4; I've got a 2.66GHz). Cineform also has outstanding customer support -- best I've ever seen in any computer-related sector.

A decent enough edit station will allow you to edit native m2t hdv on your timeline without issue.

I've an e6700 dual core 2.66 pentium with 2Gb ram and 2 x sata raid 0 drives for video storage. I have no problems editing m2t on the the timeline. However, I choose to convert to avi intermediate using Cineform for capturing purely because it keeps things smooth when using plenty of effects, grading and transitions.

Stuart!

What are some of the other choices besides Cineform? Canopus has HQ that works with Edius. What are the others?

Amos, you can edit in HDV but you should not do anything else. No rendering for export, no effects, no color correction. Get your cuts in HDV, export the sequence to AE or other compositing software and master it at 16 or 32 bits. Output the master using a lossless codec like SheerVideo, Tiff sequence or Uncompressed. That will lead to the best image quality.

Thanks but what if I want to do some color correction or rendering in final cut?

Thanks but what if I want to do some color correction or rendering in final cut?

Hi Amos,
I am afraid I don't understand the problems editing in HDV. I produce TV commercials for a living and edit everything in HDV.
I am using FCP5 and shooting with the JVC GYHD cam. I find colour correcting and chromakeying is much better in HDV than DV. Once i have the commercial ready I simply copy and paste the project into a new SD timeline.

I think the issue is that hdv is a compressed codec and doing anything to it degrades the image greatly. Using an uncompressed codec improves the image.

Thanks but what if I want to do some color correction or rendering in final cut?

You can but you can degrade the image quality. FCP is not the best tool for that job. Same thing for all NLEs, that's why at the high end people edit in FCP or Avid and then Color Correct on something like DaVinci. I did a lot of tests, tried all kind of solutions, at the ned I get the best quality and flexibility, a pretty important issue for me, in simply importing the sequence in After Effects and completing the job from there.
If you want to use FCP I would suggest at the very least to switch your sequence to high precision YUV, use Magic Bullet Colorista instead of the CC 3 way and set your sequence to use Uncompressed as compressor or SheerVideo.
In addition you might want to try to convert you footage to SheerVideo or other higher precision, lossless codecs, before editing in FCP. It all depends on what is the weight of color fidelity versus time or other constraints. Only you can judge that :)

Thanks for the advice paolo... but can sheervideo be used export between tape/vtr and fcp? Or does recording to HDV tape already compress irreversibly? How does it compare, in your opinion, to AIC or other lossless codecs?

Amos, once you record to tape you use HDV compression with 4:2:0 color sampling. Nothing to do about it, it's the nature of the beast. You can record to 4:2:2 by using component out, which gives you marginally better color, more sampling, but you still get heavily compressed, 8-bit per channel, color. This is what we accept when using an HDV camera. Short of using RED there's is pretty much no alternative in this price range and it's not a problem if you avoid any subsequent loss of data.

The main problem of HDV is that it's a temporal compression. GOPs are created by storing frames as deltas from a keyframe. When editing you end up cutting inside a GOP. If you output the sequence back in HDV or do any work that requires rendering in HDV you automatically recompress you image because the software needs to create new GOPs. If you do CC in 8 bits you often end up with banding and other artifacts caused by clipping the signal. This is easier to do than it seems. CC should be done always at at least 16 bits. In AfterEffects this is rather easy, in FCP not so much. That is probably the reason why you need to render from Color.

SheerVideo is a lossless codec, that means that when you uncompress the frames they return to exactly the original state. They are bit-per-bit accurate. AIC and ProRes and Cineform are not lossless codecs. They claim that they are "visually lossless" but the distinction is necessary. They do throw away information. The developers of those codecs claim that the loss is not visual, in other words you can't see it. That might be but as soon as you start recompressing the clips a few times, for ProRes it's been estimated in around 6-7 times, you are able to spot the difference by naked eye. This means that the data loss is there. Tim D. and others posted some results time ago when AIC came out and there was general agreement that AIC was decent but you could spot the difference by doing an accurate test.
Even when you cannot spot the difference chances are that your CC software will behave differently and will cause artifacts at some point. This could be entirely acceptable, for me it usually isn't.


but can sheervideo be used export between tape/vtr and fcp

It can. You can download the free trial from http://www.bitjazz.com . It's fully functional with no watermark for 20 days. The software install itself as a QT plugin so you can convert your m2t files into Sheer by using MPEG Streamclip and then loading the resulting .mov files in FCP. Or you can import from FCP and use Sheer as the sequence's compressor. The reason why I recommend it so much is that it's about 1/2 the size of Uncompressed but it runs generally faster than Uncompressed. This means that you worry less about the storage requirements of HD footage and you get actually better performance from your machine.

Wow, that makes total sense. Thanks Paolo!

It can. You can download the free trial from http://www.bitjazz.com . It's fully functional with no watermark for 20 days. The software install itself as a QT plugin so you can convert your m2t files into Sheer by using MPEG Streamclip and then loading the resulting .mov files in FCP. Or you can import from FCP and use Sheer as the sequence's compressor. The reason why I recommend it so much is that it's about 1/2 the size of Uncompressed but it runs generally faster than Uncompressed. This means that you worry less about the storage requirements of HD footage and you get actually better performance from your machine.

Interesting. I haven't heard of this codec yet--has anyone done any comparisons with Cineform? pros and cons?

Comparison of quality is not an issue because Sheer is completely lossless, what you get from you camera is what you keep. It would be unfair to compare against any lossy compression because pixel-by-pixel there would be differences.
You can re-render SheerVideo clips as much as you want, you are not going to have any generation loss. Size-wise it's larger than Cineform, there is no competition for that but I want say that just added another 500GB Western Digital hard disk to my storage for $160.00. Storage is really not an issue. Sheer compresses at less than half of Uncompressed but runs faster.

Amos, once you record to tape you use HDV compression with 4:2:0 color sampling. Nothing to do about it, it's the nature of the beast.

The main problem of HDV is that it's a temporal compression. GOPs are created by storing frames as deltas from a keyframe. When editing you end up cutting inside a GOP. If you output the sequence back in HDV or do any work that requires rendering in HDV you automatically recompress you image because the software needs to create new GOPs. If you do CC in 8 bits you often end up with banding and other artifacts caused by clipping the signal. This is easier to do than it seems. CC should be done always at at least 16 bits. In AfterEffects this is rather easy, in FCP not so much. That is probably the reason why you need to render from Color.




Color is a separate program that originally -- pre Apple -- HAD to render its output just like AE. If you wish, you can render to HDV. But don't. Choose ProRes 422.


Yes -- HDV is 4:2:0, and nothing you do later changes that. The decimated chroma information is lost and no CODEC you use post camera fixes this.


During editing in FCP, every MPEG-2 frame -- it makes no difference where it is in the GOP -- is "constructed" from the appropriate "other" frames. It is a frame built from motion vectors -- not delta frames as is often wrongly described. It is a frame with full information. (Step through MPEG-2, the quality is equal for every frame.)

Next, FCP converts each frame to 4:4:4 uncompressed video. At this point it is no different than a frame from ANY other codec. Whatever information was recorded by the HDV camera is present. No more -- no less.

ONLY if you MANUALLY render, is another codec used. With FCP 6.0.2 this codec is ProRes 422. (Many folks are unaware of the advance introduced by FCP 6!) ProRes 422 is full capable of carrying the information from HDV. There is no value to using a different codec anywhere in editing HDV.

At Export -- almost never back to HDV since one can't really "deliver" HDV to anyone -- the export codec encodes 4:4:4 uncompressed video. This uncompressed video comes from: decoded HDV, decompressed ProRes 422, or uncompressed graphics.

Thus, the only codec induced loss is HDV in the camera; in ProRes; and in your choice of export codec. You'll almost always be exporting uncompressed via HD-SDI to HDCAM or DVCPRO HD. So the export "render" is done by your VTR. (Note, FCP renders to HDV only if you record to HDV tape.)

Compression in ProRes is done only ONCE so there is no issue of generational loss. Renders are NEVER reused.

ProRes 422 HQ at 10-bits is able to perform as well as anyone who starts with HDV could possibly need. :)

Moreover, both HDV and ProRes support real-time editing! This is crucial! And, not true of other codecs such as CineForm.

Introducing another codec is needless as it gains no quality increase. Editing anyway but native HDV is a total waste of disk space and bandwidth. And, money.

During editing in FCP, every MPEG-2 frame -- it makes no difference where it is in the GOP -- is "constructed" from the appropriate "other" frames. It is a frame built from motion vectors -- not delta frames as is often wrongly described. It is a frame with full information.

Hmmm, I just rechecked and P-frames, while built from motion vectors, only store the needed information to create an image from I-Frames. This is what I call a "delta-frame". By itself it's not complete, it needs data from the last I-frame. Cutting in the middle of the GOP requires backtracking to the previous I-frame, calculate the full frame from all the vectors and render the frame. Proof of this is that if you edit with HDV and use a non-temporally-compressed codec for your sequence, like Uncompressed, after you rendered the sequence you can export it using Quicktime with "Current settings" and uncheck the "Make self-contained movie" and FCP will create a QT file in a matter of seconds. This is because it can generate a QT reference movie that links to portions of the render files, even at the level of a single frame. Try to do this with HDV as your sequence compressor, the default of FCP, and the time will be always much longer, sometimes in the range of a few hours. This is because it has to re-create the GOPs from scratch. The P-frames are not complete, stand-alone, frames. Maybe the term "delta" is not completely accurate but it's easier to understand than "P-frame" or "B-frame". Just MHO.


ONLY if you MANUALLY render, is another codec used. With FCP 6.0.2 this codec is ProRes 422. (Many folks are unaware of the advance introduced by FCP 6!) ProRes 422 is full capable of carrying the information from HDV. There is no value to using a different codec anywhere in editing HDV.

In several situations, and I'm also trying to give a general, not-only-FCP, scenario, people assume that because the NLE supports HDV native editing, it doesn't recompress the footage. This line of thought is also supported by the old assumption in DV land. Of course we know that HDV is temporally compressed while DV is not and so the two situations cannot be linked together. But several people are unaware of this and so the HDV editing question comes up. The scenario is that you add a HDV clip to your timeline and then output the sequence. If you use FCP's defaults, at least with 5.x, your sequence's compressor will be some flavor of HDV. If you then export using the defaults FCP will use the same codec, introducing compression and transcoding.
In this regard using HDV for editing is a bad choice. Of course if you avoid exporting, with ANY codec, and use XML instead the issue is non-existent and ProRes, Cineform or Sheer are useless. Which leads back to the reason why I suggest to do all the compositing work in this way.


You'll almost always be exporting uncompressed via HD-SDI to HDCAM or DVCPRO HD. So the export "render" is done by your VTR. (Note, FCP renders to HDV only if you record to HDV tape.)

I assume that you refer to exporting the final master. Again, all those formats are lossy, DVCPRO HD will also chop off your horizontal resolution, and should be used only by client's request. Your original comp should be exported in a completely lossless format from which you can obtain multiple versions like HDCAM, web H.264, etc.


Compression in ProRes is done only ONCE so there is no issue of generational loss. Renders are NEVER reused.

Still, it's a lossy compression and if you use it for your output format and then compress for, say, the web or iPod, you'll be introducing transcoding. I'd rather use Uncompressed or Sheer and then deliver for the web from there. There've been tests of ProRes, I think from CML members, which showed generation loss.

Try to do this with HDV as your sequence compressor, the default of FCP, and the time will be always much longer, sometimes in the range of a few hours.

If you use FCP's defaults, at least with 5.x, your sequence's compressor will be some flavor of HDV.

I assume that you refer to exporting the final master. Again, all those formats are lossy, DVCPRO HD will also chop off your horizontal resolution, and should be used only by client's request. Your original comp should be exported in a completely lossless format from which you can obtain multiple versions like HDCAM, web H.264, etc.

No one using HDV should be using anything but FCP 6 because it supports a CRITICAL new feature: When you choose an HDV Sequence -- you SHOULD specidy your RENDER codec as ProRes 422. That's why everything you say is obsolete. What you claim will take time no longer happens UNLESS you Print to HDV.

Media Composer and Express Pro and EDIUS have always worked this way. These NLEs always render to DNxHD or the Canopus HQ codec. Thus, with any "pro" NLE the issue you try to solve is not a problem.

Your comment about DVCPRO HD reveals a miss-reading of my post. I said "export to VTR." By definition, DVCPRO HD VTRs cut the Horizontal resolution. If you don't like that, then export to an HDCAM VTR. None of this has anything to do with HDV sources or codecs!

The only other HD output is MPEG-2, VC-1, or AVC -- all to BD or HD DVD. Nothing you do before export overcomes the loss in encoding to these codecs.

I think the fundamental issue is that to export HD you will always be exporting to something that compresses video. That's because ALL DELIVERY media, even D-5 and HDCAM SR, compress. How are you going to deliver Sheer or CineForm to PBS or Discovery?.

Even going to a film lab will be done on disk -- using Uncompressed or ProRes 422, or DNxHD.

Hi Steve.
I don't want to turn this in some sort of debate/confrontation about methodologies. You seem to feel strongly about FCP 6, I have no problem with that. As I said I tried to define a strategy for everybody to avoid transcoding with any system, FCP, Vegas, Premiere etc. I do use FCP 5.x as I didn't have the reason to upgrade to FCP 6. ProRes is not appealing to me, I don't use Motion, and I have no interest in learning Color since I can get the same result from software I already own and have been using for years. My setup might be obsolete but it delivers the same quality of high-end systems and it works on my current hardware with no additional learning curve, which is a plus when you have to design and deliver a commercial for MacWorld Expo in 4 days. Just as an example. Many people have delayed upgrades because they are in the middle of projects so they are indeed using HDV with other NLEs than FCP6.


Your comment about DVCPRO HD reveals a miss-reading of my post. I said "export to VTR." By definition, DVCPRO HD VTRs cut the Horizontal resolution. If you don't like that, then export to an HDCAM VTR. None of this has anything to do with HDV sources or codecs!


There is a bit of misunderstanding here. I never meant to get to that end of the production chain. My suggestion stopped at the delivery of a master file to your disk. Where the final work will go is impossible for me to predict so I didn't try. Exporting to VTR or to any other delivery system is very specific and some of the people reading this might not work for a network. Maybe they are planning their documentary or feature, I don't know, I just try to make it work for a wide series of situations.
Going back to my MacWorld commercial, my final delivery, from a completely uncompressed 16-bit master was to 1080p H.264 QT file. I can take the same master file and compress it for their website, or deliver it to a network in D5, HDCAM, doesn't matter. What I suggested is a workflow to get to that master.

Peace.

You seem to feel strongly about FCP 6.

I too don't use most of FCS2, but the upgrade to FCP 6 was necessary to get the support for the remaining HDV cameras. (Which didn't come until 6.0.2.) Also, Compressor and DVDSP support HD DVDs which is a nice addition.

It wasn't until I started reading about the Open Timeline I realized that for HDV users, FCP 6 was a radical improvment. At last Apple had gotten rid of the tie between the Sequence codec and the Render codec.

One chooses an HDV Sequence ONLY to tell FCP that with HDV sources, editing can be done in realtime. One also tells FCP it should render to ProRes 422. This advance eliminates all the BS myths about HDV which was the question posed in the first post.

I'm confused about the export issue. FCP has always supported the export of a Timeline to 10-bit HD uncompressed video files for those that don't go to HD tape or HD disc. If you are disk space limited, then Apple provides ProRes 422 HQ. One simply exports to whichever one works best.

As far as universality -- it is clear to me the world is moving to 2-3 NLEs. Broadcast and Hollywood are still in the Avid world, although FCP and Thompson/EDIUS are moving-in based upon which computer platform is used. Most post houses are Apple+FCP based -- with many/most also still using Avid. All three of these NLEs include support for HDV, uncompressed, plus a lossless compressed codec. Thus, by my definition of "universal" these solutions have no need for additional codecs. These folks have no "problem" that needs solving which is why I very much doubt these folks will buy any additional codecs.

Clearly those who use other NLEs -- can get a benefit from buying an additional codec. For example, I have always recommended CineForm for anyone using Premier. So if you were speaking to these folks -- and those using FCP 5 -- I'm in complete agreement with you.

Steve,

So you would recommend color correcting HDV footage as long as the render output is ProRes?

Also, Compressor and DVDSP support HD DVDs which is a nice addition.

Not to start a "format war" but HDDVD seems to be fading away... :)


One chooses an HDV Sequence ONLY to tell FCP that with HDV sources, editing can be done in realtime. One also tells FCP it should render to ProRes 422. This advance eliminates all the BS myths about HDV which was the question posed in the first post.

Interesting. Doesn't really transpire from Apple's documentation. It's just that for $500.00 for the upgrade it's hard to justify. Tell you the truth the more I go on the more I look for an NLE that does just that. I do use Soundtrack Pro and Compressor a lot but Soundtrack is part of Logic, which is quite affordable. I don't know, I wish that would offer a more compact version instead of buying a bunch of stuff that I don't use. Anyway... thanks for the clarification.


I'm confused about the export issue. FCP has always supported the export of a Timeline to 10-bit HD uncompressed video files for those that don't go to HD tape or HD disc.


Well, going back to the original question, I interpreted that the concern was about the loss of quality when editing HDV, which is a legitimate question.
I advocate a workflow that avoids any export/transcoding from the NLE, except for the smallest, time-sensitive projects. In that regard editing in HDV is perfectly fine because you'll never use the renders/exports from the editor. As the final step you grade/CC your sequence in AE or equivalent software and then export an uncompressed master. Stu Maschwitz, in "The DV Rebel's Guide" actually suggests to export your master as a sequence of compressed TIFF files, which I think is genius. As an example of why this helps, I was reviewing a commercial with a client and she noticed that there was a misplelling of the product name. Something as trivial as a "/" between the wrong set of characters. This was, of course, at the 11th hour and so I had to re-render the whole sequence because it was exported as a QT movie. Had I used the TIFF sequence I could have fixed the type, exported the two shots were the name appeared and overwritten the single TIFF files. There were no changes in the timeline so the update would integrate perfectly. I would have saved hours of sleep, which is something that I appreciate quite a bit :)
From the TIFF sequence, which is completely, 100% lossless, you can obtain any version of sequence by exporting to HDCAM, H.264 for web, iPod/iPhone and you will always have at the most one generation loss. If you work from another lossy codec, no matter which one, you might get two or more generation losses.


As far as universality -- it is clear to me the world is moving to 2-3 NLEs.

In the professional field I agree with you. In the independent arena there are more facets. Premiere is actually looking more promising by the day and Vegas has a good following as well. I don't use them but I think a few people reading these pages do.

Not to start a "format war" but HDDVD seems to be fading away... :)


I wish that would offer a more compact version instead of buying a bunch of stuff that I don't use.


Maschwitz, in "The DV Rebel's Guide" actually suggests to export your master as a sequence of compressed TIFF files, which I think is genius.


In the professional field I agree with you. In the independent arena there are more facets. Premiere is actually looking more promising by the day and Vegas has a good following as well. I don't use them but I think a few people reading these pages do.

Yes -- HD DVD is dead for Hollywood movies. But, far too many BD players have problems of playing red-laser HD video. The kind you can burn in your Mac. (Only AVCHD may work and only on a PS3.) In the meantime, with HD DVD players selling for $100 -- and with them all playing red-laser HD DVDs -- they are a reasonable investment.

I too dislike Apple's Studio bundle because although I agree $500 is not a lot of money, let's assume DVDSP is updated at NAB with support for BD. Do I really want spend $500 to get the only new feature I must have. Like you the answer is NO. But, I really feel FCP 6s Open Time line is worth $500.

Now I get your point about a Master. My bad. And, TIFF is genius because text is the most likely post production alteration. Have you tried this with HD? I wonder how reasonable it is to do this?

PS and OT: iMovie 08 has a very fast way of finding video and photos of you need in hours of video. (Scimming) After you rough- OR fine-trim clips into a rough- OR fine-cut, you output an XML file to FCP 6. Presto, your first-cut is ready for finishing.

(Only AVCHD may work and only on a PS3.)
Guess what I just got ? ;)


And, TIFF is genius because text is the most likely post production alteration. Have you tried this with HD? I wonder how reasonable it is to do this?

Yes a TIFF frame from HD material is about 2MB. When I read about it I immediately thought:
a) The format is an industry standard, completely open, will be supported for the foreseeable future
b) you don't need no stinkin' codec anymore ;)
c) totally multiplatform
d) unlike movie files, you can load a few frames in Photoshop and retouch without re-render the sequence.
e) from TIFF to QT or TIFF to Flash/WMV etc it's not a problem
f) rebuild the sequence is a snap with just QT Pro

The list goes on and on. Now, I just bought a 500GB hard disk for 160GB. It's a cost of 33 cents per GB. As far as I'm concerned DVD backup is a thing of the past. When you add a hard-disk enclosure, see http://www.firmtek.com for some of the best examples, you can swap HDDs like floppy. An 80GB disk costs peanuts today so even if your typical TIFF frame requires 2MB, storage is not a problem. As I write this, I have about 3.5TB connected to my MacBooKPro and I have an additional 2 slots available in my enclosures :)

Thank you for the tip about iMovie.

I sure do. Even try to incite it sometimes. Thanks guys for sharing some very intense informational exchanges, which I'm very proud of just being able to follow and understand.

FCP 6 is definitely in my future after the lesson on its different approach to processing. I just have one more project to get out the door, and one client I interchange projects with who has to be convinced to do it the same time.
(likely there will be some quoting taking place...).

But mastering in AE, with a tiff sequence master is a process that would make sense for certain types of work to me. Short form material especially. I've done effects work in AE for years, but never imported a full edit. Even with graphics intensive things just a few minutes long. Auto duck was expensive, but I will be working through that workflow too.

Considering that I have several full-length projects in the works now and almost always, and that these have a delicate interplay of polishing and revision (one is a director's first film which has been in post for over 18 months), others often requiring a series of approvals with a finished look, I need a workflow that gets finished in the editor.

I've also mastered to HD on DVD-r from DVD-SP. It's really quite magic, fast and easy to author (the rendering takes some time). The discs play back on mac's as well as on $125 toshibas looking great - as long as the program is not too long... (ideally under 20 mins). From everything I've heard, blu-ray compatible HD dvd-r is much more difficult to author, and you can't have any menus. The players are so reasonable, you can buy them for your clients and look real good! They make sense for many presentation scenarios.

Hey Paolo, if i want to use sheer video when I capture from hd100 720p24 tape, what should be my sequence and capture presets setting for final cut pro?

Hey Paolo, if i want to use sheer video when I capture from hd100 720p24 tape, what should be my sequence and capture presets setting for final cut pro?

I usually use DVHSCap, capture the m2t files and then use MPEG Streamclip to convert the files to QT .mov and select Sheer. Be sure to specify 23.976 for the frame rate in MPEG Streamclip

I was thinking of just capturing from within final cut and switching to sheer sequence setting... would that work?

I was thinking of just capturing from within final cut and switching to sheer sequence setting... would that work?

Yes, you will be rendering in Sheer. When you are done be sure to use "Export Quicktime movie" and use "Use current settings" with the option "Make movie self contained" off. This will generate a QT reference file in seconds. You can then load the file in AE or other tools or inside Compressors and then output your deliverable. If you need to round-trip from FCP to/from another app you will not experience any generation loss as long as you use Sheer.

I agree with Sean - a decent bout was that...possibly didn't quite understand as much as I'd like but much of it made sense to me (none of it would but a year ago).

Left me feeling a little left out with me running only FCP5 (studio) - I have no dedicated CC aside from the 3way cc in FCP and do not own AE :(
Currently capturing via DVHSCap (as m2t files); export via MPEGSTREAMCLIP; edit in HDV timeline; render; cut n paste into SD timeline (8bit uncompressed) and export (m2t & aiff) files to compressor then author in DVDSP.
Aside from creating music in Logic and editing audio in Soundtrack Pro I can't see of anything else I can do to achieve a better final product with my current set up. Not even sure at this stage I need to upgrade to FCS6 (although colour might be handy as a dedicated stand alone cc). Not sure how if using Sheer &/or ProRes is possible/relevant for me at the moment?

Great reading. Cheers.

Chris Poisson has a brief tutorial on capturing HDV directly to ProRes. I haven't tried it with 720p material, but it might be worth some looking into for those looking for a workaround HDV all together.

Chris Poisson has a brief tutorial on capturing HDV directly to ProRess.
What concerns me about this approach, if I interpret it correctly, is that you would capture from the camera from FireWire (HDW, otherwise it would be component or HDSDI) which is a heavily compressed format into another compressed format that has data loss (ProRes). In other words you are transcoding. This inevitably will load in more data loss. If you capture from component out to ProRes then it's a different thing but HDW to ProRes is probably something to avoid.

^^ I only have the option to capture via FW at the moment so I guess I'm best avoiding the ProRes route then?

Cheers.

^^ I only have the option to capture via FW at the moment so I guess I'm best avoiding the ProRes route then?


Yes, I would capture the MPEG2 stream without transcoding and then edit it directly.

Hey Paolo, what does after effects offer that apple color and shake doesn't? I have access to color and shake but not after effects.

Hey Paolo, what does after effects offer that apple color and shake doesn't? I have access to color and shake but not after effects.

If you have Shake then you are all set. It's a completely different workflow but Shake is perfectly fine. My advice about AE is just based on its high penetration of the market. Many more people have After Effects on their machine than Shake. If you know Color then by all means, it's an excellent product. The basics of the workflow that I described applies to your situation as well. The important part is to be mindful of your bytes and avoid transcoding them and use the compositing program to do color correction/grading instead of the NLE. Shake has a lot of tools for color manipulation in a safe environment, using high precision, so it's perfectly fine. Its masking and tracking features are also very nice. I just happen to be more familiar with AE and most of my plugins are for AE. That is actually one of the strong points of After Effects, being the de-facto standard in the motion graphic industry, many, many plugins are designed for it.

BTW, Shake makes working with sequences of images very natural. The idea of outputting your master, after compositing, as a sequence of TIFFs applies to Shake just fine. After you create your sequence of individual frames you can load it in Shake with a simple FileIn node and the resize and or crop it using its high precision tools and output a clip for TV/DVD/iPod etc.

Yes, I would capture the MPEG2 stream without transcoding and then edit it directly.

Thanks Paulo.
And that's interesting about Shake also, certainly a program I've thought about getting hold of. Not knowing Shake or Colour well (and going along with what you've said) do both these programs offer higher bit 16 & 32 bit sampling? I guess (theoretically) if I were to capture m2t then edit in HDV timeline (8bit?) the final footage would still benefit from carrying out CC/Grading/Rendering in the higher sampling rates (before 'squeezing' it back into a SD format)?
Tell me I've got that right so I can sleep that little easier tonight :)

tbh - I'm keen on the FCS6 upgrade, not only for the adoption of Colour but also for the 5:1 sound in soundtrack pro (unless Logic Pro has this facility which would be rather handy).
Thanks.

Tell me I've got that right so I can sleep that little easier tonight :)

That's right. In fact the idea is to use the NLE to just do cuts, for which there is no need for high-precision calculations. Once you have locked your cuts you use your method of choice to export your timeline to a compositing program. Depending on what you need to do you could use Shake for compositing and CC or use Shake for compositing and Color for final grade. One thing, both programs are as far as possible to be Mac-friendly and that is one of my biggest gripes against Shake. It also has some hard to predict behavior when using "Send to Shake" from FCP. The color treatment of Shake is powerful but takes a lot of time to master.

Good luck

Hi guys, so after reading all this i would like someone to spell it out about capture and then edit. I have a HD201,shoot in 72025p or 72050p then into FCP and the final out put is DVD.

1.CAPTUER over fire wire via (DVHS Cap) (Then convert to ?) or (FPC set to Pro Ress) ?
2. Edit ?
3. CC ? If needed
3. Export ?
4 Burn DVDSTUDIO PRO (OK)

One other thing is i find if i dd text to something using Motion/live type or direct in FCP, When watching it back on the dvd it never looks sharp.

Rob.

Hi guys, so after reading all this i would like someone to spell it out about capture and then edit. I have a HD201,shoot in 72025p or 72050p then into FCP and the final out put is DVD.

1.CAPTUER over fire wire via (DVHS Cap) (Then convert to ?) or (FPC set to Pro Ress) ?
2. Edit ?
3. CC ? If needed
3. Export ?
4 Burn DVDSTUDIO PRO (OK)

One other thing is i find if i dd text to something using Motion/live type or direct in FCP, When watching it back on the dvd it never looks sharp.

Rob.


Hi Rob,
I dont get any of this. I shoot in 720/25p for TV commercials. Capture in FCP like i used to in DV and edit in HDV. I then copy the timeline and paste into a new SD sequence , render and export for mainstream TV. I get excellent results. The only thing that is bad is if you set up a new sequence and drag the HDV sequence into the SD timeline. You will find the quality is far from good. Sometimes I add the HDV timeline to the new sequence and then add the text.

hi dennis,

dont get me wrong i am happy with what i see, but always looking for something better,

how or what format do you export for TV, Do you have a link to some of the TVCs that i could see.
rob.

Robert, as I probably said before, my suggestion here is based on the assumption that you need transitions and CC. This might not be always the case. Let's say that my *suggested* workflow is viable when working with material for which image quality is of the highest priority. I must also say that I picked up most of it from Stu Maschwitz's "The DV Rebel's Guide", excellent book that I suggest for anyone interested in knowing more about shooting digital. Stu is one of the founders of "The Orphanage" and one of the developers of the original "Magic Bullet".


1.CAPTUER over fire wire via (DVHS Cap) (Then convert to ?) or (FPC set to Pro Ress) ?

OK, it's important to understand here that our cameras record in a lossy format. You want to capture the data from the tape and avoid loosing more. Not even a bit. As good as ProRes is, it's another lossy codec. If you capture from the camer *directly* into ProRes you end up with a generation loss. Use Propres as an intermediate codec but be sure that you captured the "raw" data from the camera. That would be the HDV data stream or the .m2t file.


One other thing is i find if i dd text to something using Motion/live type or direct in FCP, When watching it back on the dvd it never looks sharp.

Well, that's kind my point. FCP is an excellent editor, it's not a compositing suite. After Effects, Motion, Shake are the tools for the job. What I mean is that you should use a compositing suite for the very final output, the master of your sequence. Do it at 16 bit precision, 32 if you can, and you'll end up with an excellent result.

. What I mean is that you should use a compositing suite for the very final output, the master of your sequence. Do it at 16 bit precision, 32 if you can, and you'll end up with an excellent result.

thanks for the reply,
so if i capture DVHS Cap, convert to sheer using stream clip, then open a new project in FCP using sheer as the compressor, do a straight edit, then highlight the whole sequence send to Motion for CC text, and Cross Fades.

Then export as a QT File using current settings.

If i want to take the step and use color when would i slip it in to the job.

This then i could open in such appz as Compressor or Bitvice.

I hope i have this right.

rob.

thanks for the reply,
so if i capture DVHS Cap, convert to sheer using stream clip, then open a new project in FCP using sheer as the compressor, do a straight edit, then highlight the whole sequence send to Motion for CC text, and Cross Fades.

Ok up to here...


Then export as a QT File using current settings.

This implies that you go back to FCP and render the sequence with it which defies the purpose of using Motion for the high quality processing. Let Motion do the rendering. Export the master to high quality Sheer/Uncompressed and then drop the master into Compressor.
[/QUOTE]

I just had my first shakedown with shake, thanks to this - my most favorite workflow thread yet. I now understand the sense in this. But I have to say, "Noodles, Nodes, Squiggles, Knots," and no more timeline....? Someone is fooling with me right? I am now officially, completely lost, again.

Oh the journey

hey paolo, should I use sheer 1280x720p 24df rgb 10bt or 1280x720p 24df YDbCr as my sequence setting for FCP using hd100 footage?

But I have to say, "Noodles, Nodes, Squiggles, Knots," and no more timeline....?
Well you actually have a timeline in Shake, the nodes and noodles replace the layers or tracks of other systems, like AE. The great advantage of the node system is that it allows you to immediately see the relationship of each node. As with everything, it takes time to get used to it.

Amos, my understanding of the YCbCr is that it's an efficient way of encoding the same values that we have in 8-bit RGB. Given that most of post work will be done in RGB land I usually set the codec to RGB. it's my understanding that Sheer can map use either YCbCr and RGB without data loss.

Paolo

I have captured all ok

I have a test.mov using sheer as the compressor, it plays fine in QTPlayer.

My question is when i open FCP and setup a new seq. I can not see sheer compressor under any of the settings.

How di i set up the seq.

Rob.

Sorry mate found it.

It hepls to read the install nots. LOL.

ROB

Hi Guys,

Hope this doesn't seem like a hijack but if I'm importing into premiere can I import as m2ts files straight from tape? I already have some footage from my firestore these are obviously m2ts but I'm wondering If this is the same from tape, I'm guessing it is. Also have my doubts about Premiere as in another posts I read it clips super blacks and whites. What and how much, in terms of digital info, is this effecting.

Also can anyone advise me of the best possible workflow using Premiere. I also have about 30 hours of footage I need to edit. Would it be advantages when digitising this footage to digitise this with sheer and then import into Premiere or would this be better done post edit?

Greg