taking the P2 workflow out of the equation, which would you go for? Which has the prettier images? Used Varicam's are going on ebay for about $20k. For sake of argument, price is not an issue. Thanks!

Peter

Varicam! Especially if you can get a great and competitive price on it, but make sure you check it out in person and run a tape through it etc... Even if the tape transport or heads need servicing, you're still looking at a FANTASTIC camera that puts out top-notch pictures in an established workflow.

The HPX is a great little camera, and a definite leap ahead of the HVX-200, but it can't touch the Varicam image-wise.

P2 can be a great workflow for some, but the majority of productions that I've encountered require an archival copy of the footage. You can go around trying to find long-lasting drives or LTO tapes and try to convince your potential clients that they should adopt YOUR archival system... or you could shoot to tape, and simply hand them over as-is. DVCPRO-HD and HDCAM are the industry standards for tape formats, whereas P2 must usually be dubbed over to a master format (speaking of policies right now). Obviously tapeless is the wave of the future, but for a good long while (at LEAST 5-10 years) tape will still play a large role in archiving video footage. Bottom line - if you're looking for a top-end acquisition camera, the Varicam still provides stunning pictures (with good lenses and smart operating).

How much to rebuild the scanner on a Varicam?

Thanks Jaron! I was checking out the Panny website and see they have dropped the price of a Varicam by $20k -- to $45,000. Still a lot of money, but seems like a good deal.

My only hesitation on the Varicam are its relative lack of shooting formats compared to what the P2 cameras offer. If only there was a "P2 Varicam". Truthfully, for my personal work the Varicam is perfect, but I have clients sometimes ask for other formats, which it couldn't accommodate. I think I'll wait to see what's announced at NAB this year and then make a decision. I assume no one has heard of a "P2 Varicam" being announced any time soon? Or an HPX500 on steroids perhaps (VFR, but with native HD chips and an HD viewfinder).

Peter

The current lineup of P2 cams, especially the HVX could be considered the first-step in creating the path to a truly tapeless world, however as pointed out the lack of a true P2-based Varicam has left many staying with tape mainly because the commercial industry (outside of broadcast) hasn't begun to fully adopt the tapeless workflow - yet.

However, if Panny does introduce a *real* P2 Varicam that would be the first major step into getting tapeless adopted into commercial workflows, mainly because the media cost would become negligible when compared to the required re-cost of new media and the ultra-expensive decks required to capture/playback the content.

If Panny doesn't introduce it's P2 Varicam at NAB then the current Varicam is by far a well-rounded investment depending on workflow and client media delivery needs.

The p2 varicam is already out. its the 3000 series.
used varicams can be one of three software versions, the first two are no longer supported and in the rental world are not even rentable.
the H version blows the doors off any footage shot on the 500.
the 500 actually uses a chip block from the SDX900 SD camera, and achieves its HD files by doing voodoo with the pixels.

My hope is that someone will come out with a hard drive unit that would take the HDSDI which is on the varicam and allow for off the block recording.

this type of product would also help out the aging Canon H1, which has a smoking sharp image off the HDSDI port. much sharper than the HVX200 even.

The p2 varicam is already out. its the 3000 series.


Hi Craig:

The HPX-3000 is not really considered the successor to the Varicam precisely because it does NOT have VFR. Variable frame rates were the unique, big deal feature of the original Varicam.

I have heard something about how they could not do VFR with the 2000/3000 series because encoding for the AVC Intra codec was not possible with variable frame rates yet.

Kinda lame that the HVX and HPX, the two bottom of the line can do VFR and the two big brothers that cost many times more cannot.

Best,

Dan

Thanks for all the great feedback guys.

My understanding of the 3000 is, as Dan pointed out, that it is not truly a replacement for the Varicam because it lacks VFR.

I think my first step in this process is to wait and see what Panny announces at NAB this year. I would like to get something sooner, but it is probably worth waiting.

I agree with your comments Robert that P2 is the future, and my biggest hesitation with the Varicam is that I'm investing in a platform that would be obsolete (or at least less useful) much sooner. The truly great thing about P2, at least for the kind of work I do at this time using the HVX, is that I can offer clients a long menu of shooting formats to choose from to accommodate a variety of shoots.

I have been delivering P2 data to most of my clients and they love it. A switch to a tape-based workflow for most of them would actually be a step back, so that is an issue with the Varicam. If I purchased one I would probably need to also have a Firestore to accommodate certain clients. The upside is that for my personal work, documentary, the Varicam is more desirable in many ways to P2.

It sounds like the Varicam has the far superior image, which for the price it should, of course. I am tempted to just get either the Varicam or HPX500 now, but I think I'll muster some self-discipline and hold out for NAB.

Peter

I am tempted to just get either the Varicam or HPX500 now, but I think I'll muster some self-discipline and hold out for NAB.

Peter

Just keep in mind that if it bows at NAB, you are typically 6-9 months out from when you can actually get your hands on it. So realistically, you'd be near a year away from being able to make your purchase (if NAB brought something you just had to have).

Dan

Thanks Dan -- hadn't really thought of this. I guess if there was something announced that was really worth waiting for then I'd consider it.

On the used varicam front, what sort of things should I look for in considering one? I'm guessing the "h" version of the camera is important. Can anyone recommend trusted retailers of used gear like this? Anything else? Thanks!

Peter

My hope is that someone will come out with a hard drive unit that would take the HDSDI which is on the varicam and allow for off the block recording.

this type of product would also help out the aging Canon H1, which has a smoking sharp image off the HDSDI port. much sharper than the HVX200 even.

Can this help? Convergent Design's Flash XDR ??? Takes HD-SDI and outputs to Compact Flash? Not sure if product is out yet ... but it does cost US$4,995 !!!

Can anyone recommend trusted retailers of used gear like this? Anything else? Thanks!

Peter

Try the forum Sponsors; I can personally vouch for Abel Cine LA, Omega Broadcast and ZGC.

Try the forum Sponsors; I can personally vouch for Abel Cine LA, Omega Broadcast and ZGC.

Thanks Robert!

As has been said, the 3000 is most certainly not a VariCam replacement, because it doesn't have any "vari" in it. Last time I was in Aus the Panasonic boss there said that there will be a new VariCam, it will be P2-based, and it's probably 12 to 18 months away. That was about 2 months ago, so the ticking clock should be 10 to 16 months away. 10 months away? Sounds about right for an NAB announcement two months from now, so -- could make for an interesting NAB...

Yes, rumors indicate true full frame 1920x1080p sensors, 10bit, 4:4:4 color space and variable frame rate. Sony HDCAM SR killer?

I take it that this super duper camera won't feature DVCPRO HD compression anymore? More likely to be AVC-Intra based.

I take it that this super duper camera won't feature DVCPRO HD compression anymore? More likely to be AVC-Intra based.

It has both.

Can DVCProHD cope with 10bits + 4:4:4 colour space? I thought it can't - that why AVC-Intra was developed.

Can DVCProHD cope with 10bits + 4:4:4 colour space? I thought it can't - that why AVC-Intra was developed.

AVC-Intra is 10 bit and 4:2:2 (when used in 100-megabit mode). DVCPRO-HD is 8-bit and 4:2:2.

Barry,

If neither DVCProHd or AVC-I can cope with 4:4:4 colour space, what codec does that new Panasonic camera offers that will capture 10 bits at 4:4:4 then?

4:4:4 is available only in an uncompressed format, which if you need that kind of ultimate quality you should be looking at the Viper, F23 or other ultra-high end video system or, one of the direct-capture HD-SDI options to get uncompressed out of the cameras before the in-camera compression is applied.

The entire philosophy behind codecs such as DVCPRO and AVC-I is to get as close to uncompressed quality without the extra-high data rates needed to support uncompressed - which also translates into more computing power to handle it. And for 90% of the jobs out there being shot on video cameras DV100 and AVC-I do it very, very well.

Nothing replaces a true 4:4:4 colorspace just like nothing replaces the organic look of film (yet) but it does pay off to start with the best imagers possible before any compression is applied, which is why both the HPX2000 and 3000 cams are absolutely stunning both in camera output and real-world performance on a timeline.

That said, I think it it's safe to say that when Panny does release the full P2-Varicam the playing field will be forever changed, just as it was with the DVX100.

For the original poster... I would seriously consider the Panasonic HDX 900, kind of the Varicam junior. I have one and could not be more pleased with it. Gorgeous pictures and tons of options, frame rates etc.... only a few things it can't do that a Varicam would... so if you don't need those few capabilities, this might be the camera for you.

I looked long and hard at the HVX 500... and made the jump up to the 900... not looking back, a far superior camera.

One of the great things about it is that it is a tape based rig, but you can also use the firewire port on it to record effortlessly to a Firestore... so you can hedge your bets, and have the option for different clients and projects down the road. Some people record both simultaneously, so they get the instant digital files to import, and instant archival on the tape. Done.

Check it out, this is a very very fine camera.

Last August, at a Digital Cinema Society event in LA featuring the Panasonic HPX3000, P2, and AVCIntra, Russ Walker of Panasonic mentioned that a working demo of the "Varicam 2" would possibly be shown at NAB this year. Delivery would be 12-18 months away (from last August, so that's late 2008/early 2009).

According to Russ, the Varicam 2 will indeed be a 4:4:4 camera (unlike the HPX3000).

Best,
Simon Sommerfeld
Digital Cinema Society
www.digitalcinemasociety.org

Thanks for all the great feedback guys.

My understanding of the 3000 is, as Dan pointed out, that it is not truly a replacement for the Varicam because it lacks VFR.

I think my first step in this process is to wait and see what Panny announces at NAB this year. I would like to get something sooner, but it is probably worth waiting.

I agree with your comments Robert that P2 is the future, and my biggest hesitation with the Varicam is that I'm investing in a platform that would be obsolete (or at least less useful) much sooner. The truly great thing about P2, at least for the kind of work I do at this time using the HVX, is that I can offer clients a long menu of shooting formats to choose from to accommodate a variety of shoots.

I have been delivering P2 data to most of my clients and they love it. A switch to a tape-based workflow for most of them would actually be a step back, so that is an issue with the Varicam. If I purchased one I would probably need to also have a Firestore to accommodate certain clients. The upside is that for my personal work, documentary, the Varicam is more desirable in many ways to P2.

It sounds like the Varicam has the far superior image, which for the price it should, of course. I am tempted to just get either the Varicam or HPX500 now, but I think I'll muster some self-discipline and hold out for NAB.

Peter

One of the biggest issues with selecting either the Varicam or the HDX900 is that you're stuck with tape (unless you use the Firestore which has it's own issues being a spinning HDD) which means having a very expensive deck just to review and capture. The deck cost alone (studio deck) could easily pay for (2) HPX500's fully rigged.

The Varicam will beat-out the 500 in image quality, period, no contest, but as you point out we're in a weird transitory period where the P2 Varicam will most likely get *announced* at NAB but delivery would still be a year or so away before you could get your hands on one and we still have no idea what else Panny may be introducing (v.2 of the HVX200?) (based on previous release history).

Personally, if you're going to go with a tape-based camera today it absolutely should be the Varicam, used or new. Although the HDX900 is a well-rounded camera it is strictly an ENG rig by design, whereas the Varicam was purposely built to do more than just events & news gathering and do film-type work also - that's why it has VFR.

To date, there are only 3 cameras that have been specifically designed by Panny to be more well-rounded than just a super-duper ENG rig: The HVX200, HPX500 and the Varicam. The HPX2000/3000 cams have beautiful imagers but are still designed around the needs of ENG work (a commercial filmmaker would never use digital super-zoom or super-GAIN, those features were specifically designed to help news crews get a difficult shot).

We all expect Panny to tease us with the P2 Varicam soon, however since there has been no official announcement that means it's not even on the horizon, which means it's going to be a while before you can even dream of owning one, so you could look at this three ways:

1. You could take the money needed to get the Varicam and the supporting equipment (deck, Firestore etc at least (2) HD zoom lenses) and have a really nice, industry-standard system that could shoot amazing footage for years - until you can cough up the dough for what will most likely be a very expensive P2 Varicam or;

2. You could take that same amount of money and have an amazingly rigged HPX500 with 19mm rails, FF, lens adapter and a set of used Cooke S4 Primes (if you really wanted to go all out) etc. etc. or;

3. You could have (2) fully ENG rigged HPX500's.

Which way would I go? Who cares; chances are we shoot completely different material so my needs are different than yours, but either way you've got some amazing potential to choose from.

2. You could take that same amount of money and have an amazingly rigged HPX500 with 19mm rails, FF, lens adapter and a set of used Cooke S4 Primes (if you really wanted to go all out) etc. etc. or;

3. You could have (2) fully ENG rigged HPX500's.

Which way would I go? Who cares; chances are we shoot completely different material so my needs are different than yours, but either way you've got some amazing potential to choose from.

I was in exactly the same boat. I had aging SD gear that was in need of replacement, but found myself in this transition period where there were really no good options (at least in my price range). So I did as Robert suggests, and picked up 2 nicely outfitted 500's and spent just over $60,000. Yea, I only had the Fuji kit lenses, and the low-light stuff is a little noisier than I would like, but I have to tell you, overall I am really happy with how flexible this setup really is. And even with the lower-end kit lenses, the images are incredible.

I shoot a variety of corporate, local TV commercials, documentary, etc. I don't shoot any theatrical stuff, so I can't comment on that, but for what I need, the 500's have really surprised me.

Now I'm saving my pennies for an HVX200 so I have a hand-held for tighter situations, and it matches up nicely with the 500's. After that I'll be all set for a couple of years.

-Brad

Yeah, like Brad, we bought a 500, and now we're thinking of a 200 (or it's successor) especially for plopping atop a mid-range Steadicam.

Just replying to a previous post about the advanced video codec. There are different levels, just like mpeg2, one of the top levels of avc compression allow for 4:4:4 encoding at 2k DCI-complaint resolutions in intra-frame recording (at something like 220Mb/s. There isnt a current "avc-intra" Panasonic camera that can encode at that level yet, but Im sure you can expect that on Panasonics upcoming digital cinema camera.

Think about what quality level you need for most of the work you do and base your purchase on that. If say half your projects need the quality of a varicam then you might want to lean that way.

How often do you need the variable rates? If you could find a good deal on a used HDX 900 remember that it will blow the doors of a 500 image wise. Rent when you must have variable rates.

Then again if most of your work is fine with a 500 you might wish to do that and just rent when you need something of higher quality. Let your needs dictate the purchase.

One other thought, do you really want to keep up maintenance on tape drives? Remembering multi thousand dollar bills for things like changing drum assemblies on beta decks and camcorders my answer was no which is why I've just kept renting.

K

I believe this answers all the relevant questions:

http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/9347.html

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the fantastic feedback. I ended out getting an HPX500 with a Fujinon 13x4.5 BERM lens. Lens is a little overkill, but I'll have it forever. I'm very happy with this lens and the HPX. I would say the images are noticeably less noisy than HVX, and obviously more dynamic range and better low-light sensitivity. The picture doesn't blow me away, but for $10k I think the camera is a deal.

I decided against Varicam because I'm very happy with P2 and my main client likes it as well (I made this purchase before NAB P2 Varicam announcement, of course). Additionally, when I'm shooting my own doc projects, I can get nearly 6 hours of 720p24n on my 4 32GB P2 cards, which is absolutely awesome.

So today I read about new P2 Varicams. The 2700 is enticing. Do we know price point and release yet? Maybe by the time it's actually shipping I'll be ready to upgrade.

Peter

So today I read about new P2 Varicams. The 2700 is enticing. Do we know price point and release yet?
Don't know about shipping date, but the price point was said to be "around $40k".