I'm a wedding videographer currently using a pair of FX-1's. I was thinking about buying 2 of the Z7's and pairing them with the FX-1's. From what I've read, there aren't a lot of differences between the two cameras (that I might use). The CF stuff sounds great, but I shoot a lot of weddings and don't want to take the chance of storing them all on HD's. I already use Wide-angle adapters on the FX-1's, so that isn't a big deal either. The other big difference is the change from CCD to CMOS. Does anybody think that will make it any better in low-light? Sorry if I noobed anything up in here.

Thanks,

Chad

The CF stuff sounds great, but I shoot a lot of weddings and don't want to take the chance of storing them all on HD's.

I think I'm set to record HDV to Compact Flash with a pocketful of 16GB and soon 32GB cards, then put the selects back onto HDV tape using an M15 deck for archiving (I may be wrong, but I think it will take the pseudo timecode, so there may be a blind chance of doing a batch capture).

I tend to end up with hours of stuff in long continuous chunks too, so a deck with 4.5 hours per tape can cope with the raw footage and it can happen offline using a hand-me-down computer as I'll actually be working from hard disk most of the time.

There is BluRay at around 50 GB, but that's less than 4 hours footage per disk.

FWIW, various brochures and beta tests claim that the Z7 is around 1.5 lux or equal to a PD150. There may be some weasel-words in there, but if the Z7 handles low light like a PD150, I for one will be happy with that. I feel perpetually stuck at f2.8 with +3dB gain indoors with the Z1 (thank goodness for black stretch).

The Z7 should be excellent in low light: as good as a PD150 or EX1 if early reports are correct. This is probably the main reason I am looking at this camera. I have an HVR-A1, and love the footage I get outdoors in daylight, but don't find it adequate indoors in any kind of low light. The Z7 should fix this.

I am also looking forward to using the Compact Flash for quick dropout free transfers along with the tape for fast reliable archiving. That and the lens that can be replaced with a wide angle lens. This camera looks like exactly what I need.

The Z7 should be excellent in low light: as good as a PD150 or EX1 if early reports are correct. This is probably the main reason I am looking at this camera. I have an HVR-A1, and love the footage I get outdoors in daylight, but don't find it adequate indoors in any kind of low light. The Z7 should fix this.

I am also looking forward to using the Compact Flash for quick dropout free transfers along with the tape for fast reliable archiving. That and the lens that can be replaced with a wide angle lens. This camera looks like exactly what I need.

Ditto. Exactly my thoughts too (and I have a HC1 which I love, as long as the sun is out!) and use a PD150 a lot when it's not. A friend has the V1 and I know that's not the solution I want, great though it is in many ways.

This all assumes the Z7 lives up to the expectations both you and I and no doubt many others have (and it's not exactly cheap is it!)

I've looked at the EX1 (a friend here has just got one) and very nice it is too but the (currently) VERY expensive storage format and limited run time with two 8GB SXS cards, issue on archiving etc. means I'm not yet ready to make that leap to leave tape behind just yet. Cheap compact flash for PC download (16 or even 32 GB should be easily affordable, bigger cards coming) and tape for archive and secondary back-up is ideal for me going forward for the next few years.

Anyway, can I quote you word for word when I try and justify the expense of a Z7 with my wife later this year? (!!!)

:=)

I am getting ready to do a new documentary on doctors falsely accused of Medicare fraud. I am going to do literaly hundreds of hours of interviews. As much as I would like to use an EX1, especially for the same price as a Z7, I just can't.

Imagine the following: "Hold that thought Dr. Baker, I just have to do a quick transfer of footage to my laptop..."

Imagine the following: "Hold that thought Dr. Baker, I just have to do a quick transfer of footage to my laptop..."

Laurence, I'm just brainstorming - correct me if i'm wrong or completely out of my mind :)

Honestly I can't imagine how the above can possibly happen in a pre-planned documentary. You have 2 - 8 GB cards with the camera - get another 16 GB for $850. That gives you 160 minutes of HDV in a row.

That is 2 hours and 45 minutes !! I can't imagine anyone talking for more than a 2 hours 45 minutes with regards to one thought. I'd think even a bio break would be due by then - ha ha.

Even if you have the 2 - 8 GB cards - gosh that is almost 1.5 hours. More than HDV tape

Even if you are interviewing and don't have time to dump the first card , while the second continues to record - you are still way ahead.

Also - are you shooting on a mini-dv/hdv camera right now. That is only 60 minutes. If you want to use the existing cards - if you can dump every 40 mintues (which would take like 5 minutes - in which u can continue to work) you still don't have a problem.

I know people who are shooting weddings with 2 - 8 GB and 1 - 16 GB card without a sweat - and that is non-stop crazy chaos :)

I also think ur workflow would be really clean - all files on the laptop ready to edit , preview. I'd take the solid state approach in a heart beat.

Then again - you know the job best and what tools will fit - so there maybe something i'm overlooking.


Thanks :)
Paul

You're probably right. If I just bite the bullet and buy an extra 16GB card I'd probably be fine with the EX-1

...at $850 a throw...gulp!!!!

Especially compared to deals like this:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/534913-REG/Kingston_CF_16GB_S2_16GB_CompactFlash_Elite_Pro.html

16GB for $155 after rebate (limit two). $310 for over two hours of record time sounds pretty good for a start doesn't it, not to mention that I already have batteries, chargers, and a lanc controller that will work right off...

Other than the obvious (quick transfer), what is the benefit of recording to CF cards? Will the CF cards record at a higher resolution?

There are definitely lots of advantages to going to a card rather than a tape:

1/ Faster transfer
2/ no tape errors
3/ instant review of previous shots
4/ no need to find the end of tape after previewing shots
5/ ability to delete bad takes and reuse the space
6/ cheaper
7/ just fooling around.

There are also times when going to tape makes more sense:

1/ when you need hundreds of hours of source footage for a documentary.
2/ when you are travelling to remote areas where you don't want to bring a laptop.
3/ long days when you don't want to archive after shooting all day.
4/ not wanting to bring redundant hard drives to a shoot.
5/ you are shooting something that will be edited by someone else.

Then there are times when shooting to both at once makes sense:

1/ You want a permanent backup, but don't want to spend time capturing either.
2/ Extra safety on an interview or shot that is hard or impossible to do again.
3/ You want to avoid spending ours burning raw footage to blu-ray or XD cam optical drives.
4/ you want to give the footage to one person but keep a copy for yourself.
5/ you want to review shots without rewinding the tape.
6/ you want to mail the tapes from a remote location to yourself in case of theft or damage of your computer.
7/ you want to mail tapes to an editor, yet keep a copy until you are sure they arrive safely.

Then there is the option of going to card, but having tapes handy if you run out of space.

I'm a wedding videographer and we have a few months of weddings waiting to be edited. A CF card just isn't really an option for us right now due to the back up strategy. I could always build a RAID 5 array, but I still feel safer with tapes. I was hoping to hear that the CF captured the video at a higher res or less compressed.
I think the fact that you can do both at the same time is really helpful as well.

Nice summing up of the pros and cons of solid state and tape, Laurence, and yes, being able to do either/both is good.I was hoping to hear that the CF captured the video at a higher res or less compressed.
Chad, not quite what you want, but worth mentioning that you can record HD to one media and SD to the other. That could be useful if you want an SD edit now (via CF) yet want to archive the rushes in HDV for possible future HD use

Other than the obvious (quick transfer), what is the benefit of recording to CF cards? Will the CF cards record at a higher resolution?

Laurence has made lots of very good points on the advantage of CF or solid state media. From a practical use standpoint, here's mine.

From a wedding/events shooter/editor perspective, the ability to edit immediately. Most of events require 4-6 tapes, or about 4-6 hours. Tape to PC transfer take up about the same time. This is not just about the regular edits but even fast/quick edits.

If one is doing an SDE (Same Day Edit) where the wedding is shot today but to be shown at the reception 2-3 hours after the event, CFs cut off the time for transfer dramatically. Even last minute shoots can be added to the edit! Imagine the cake cutting or first dance just being cued in the blank time line of the NLE software. Once that part is finished, that 5-10 min segment is transferred in seconds instead of 5-10 min. Then minor edits, then it's off to the render process, then it's ready for presentation! SDEs are added revenue streams to a wedding shooter and a good marketing tool.


As for archival, I still think tape is the best. We still have to wait for the new disc media to prove their worth. What can be done in the mean time is to use the tape now to backup the copy of the files from the CF. And that can be done in the background or in another machine. I plan to go this route in addition to HD backups.

But if you ask me, another option is to use CFs themselves as the archival storage themselves. If a wedding in AVCHD requires about 16-32gb CF for a 4-6 hour shoot. In time, the price will drop to U$100 or less for a fast 32gb CF type storage (likely SD) and that can be factored at the medium of archival itself. Compression issues aside, this shows how smaller the files are for the same resolution.

This medium can be debatable but at least tape is still an option for archival. But it can always be done post or simultaneously while editing (not rendering). The important thing is the files are in the computer in less than 1 hour and ready to be edited instead of 4-6 hours, maybe even more if you do multiple cameras or or shooting documentaries, etc. One just need to practice good backup routines religiously and not cut them off in the workflow.

As for resolution, they're the same as HDV. But it's the compression that many balk about. For certain things, they won't be satisfactory (likely fast action sequences), but for some of us, they may be enough (weddings or slow moving events). Of course, if they just open up past 17mbs with 25mbs as the theoretical limit, things can get better. Even at 20mbs, will help. But we will just have to wait for the next cameras for them to increase it.

For other applications, I'm sure, 25mbs is not going to be enough. But then again, that's why you buy those U$6-10k cameras. You also buy them for their color space, expandability, more controls, etc.

But as far as CF/SD or whatever storage, I hope it gets better because some applications, heck maybe almost all applications can benefit from solid state storage. It's not just the convenience, it's the speed, and lesser overall problems, except maybe for archival purposes where we do need tape to tide us over for a while.

Laurence has made lots of very good points on the advantage of CF or solid state media. From a practical use standpoint, here's mine.

From a wedding/events shooter/editor perspective, the ability to edit immediately. Most of events require 4-6 tapes, or about 4-6 hours. Tape to PC transfer take up about the same time. This is not just about the regular edits but even fast/quick edits.

If one is doing an SDE (Same Day Edit) where the wedding is shot today but to be shown at the reception 2-3 hours after the event, CFs cut off the time for transfer dramatically. Even last minute shoots can be added to the edit! Imagine the cake cutting or first dance just being cued in the blank time line of the NLE software. Once that part is finished, that 5-10 min segment is transferred in seconds instead of 5-10 min. Then minor edits, then it's off to the render process, then it's ready for presentation! SDEs are added revenue streams to a wedding shooter and a good marketing tool.


As for archival, I still think tape is the best. We still have to wait for the new disc media to prove their worth. What can be done in the mean time is to use the tape now to backup the copy of the files from the CF. And that can be done in the background or in another machine. I plan to go this route in addition to HD backups.

But if you ask me, another option is to use CFs themselves as the archival storage themselves. If a wedding in AVCHD requires about 16-32gb CF for a 4-6 hour shoot. In time, the price will drop to U$100 or less for a fast 32gb CF type storage (likely SD) and that can be factored at the medium of archival itself. Compression issues aside, this shows how smaller the files are for the same resolution.

This medium can be debatable but at least tape is still an option for archival. But it can always be done post or simultaneously while editing (not rendering). The important thing is the files are in the computer in less than 1 hour and ready to be edited instead of 4-6 hours, maybe even more if you do multiple cameras or or shooting documentaries, etc. One just need to practice good backup routines religiously and not cut them off in the workflow.

As for resolution, they're the same as HDV. But it's the compression that many balk about. For certain things, they won't be satisfactory (likely fast action sequences), but for some of us, they may be enough (weddings or slow moving events). Of course, if they just open up past 17mbs with 25mbs as the theoretical limit, things can get better. Even at 20mbs, will help. But we will just have to wait for the next cameras for them to increase it.

For other applications, I'm sure, 25mbs is not going to be enough. But then again, that's why you buy those U$6-10k cameras. You also buy them for their color space, expandability, more controls, etc.

But as far as CF/SD or whatever storage, I hope it gets better because some applications, heck maybe almost all applications can benefit from solid state storage. It's not just the convenience, it's the speed, and lesser overall problems, except maybe for archival purposes where we do need tape to tide us over for a while.

I'm not sure what you mean by 17mb/s. HDV 2 (1080i) is 25 mb/s and HDV 1 (720p) is 19 mb/s. It so happens that DV tape will hold the up to 25 mb/s compression of HDV. The recording medium really has nothing to do with quality; it is the format that dictates quality. Now if you're talking AVCHD, that's a format that can benefit from higher bit rates, but remember AVCHD tops out at 24mb/s but uses a more efficient MPEG-4 codec.

The Z7 and S270 give you the best of both worlds: faster transfers and less chance of errors with flash, and archival workflow with tape. Gosh with any recording device, it's nice to have a backup. The only sticking points are whether or not the quality of HDV is good enough for your use and the price. Remember, these cameras will only come with Sony's Carl Zeiss 12x lens. Interchangeable lens for Sony means. . . stock it with the cheapie, and you buy the expensive glass if you want. Don't expect the glass to be any better than what's on the Z1 and FX1. Also, the low light performance is based on that 12x lens. Put better glass on those cameras and they might be a bit more than a stop better than the V1.

In my opinion, the Z7 is not an option. At $6500 USD, I rather buy the EX-1 for the same price. The S270 is more attractive because it is shoulder mount, capable of using up to 4 and 1/2 hour large DV tapes, capable of 4 channel audio recording, SDI and HDSDI with timecode, hybrid recording and interchangeable lens. Of course, all that comes with a steep price of $10,500 USD.

The only advantage of the Z7 for what I can see is it's a bit better than Sony's V1. . . larger sensors, hybrid recording, and interchangeable lens if you want to go there. Now if the Z7 was five grand, I'm there but not at $6500.

The only advantage of the Z7 for what I can see is it's a bit better than Sony's V1. . . larger sensors, hybrid recording, and interchangeable lens if you want to go there. Now if the Z7 was five grand, I'm there but not at $6500.There's also the dual-record benefit, with associated fast transfer to PC/Mac, and other benefits from that system such as you can record to tape in HDV and at the same time record to card in SD (downconverted) etc.

I also hear that the Z7 also has a different method of processing progressive content (vs V1), and the sensor and signal processing for this works in a completely different way the the V1. So I understand your points, but my feeling is I think thats its a little more than a "V1 with 1/3in sensors".

Great thread guys. I'm currently an HC1 owner looking to upgrade and really would like to get a card/tape solution. I'm interested in getting a camera from more of a hobbyist's position. Right now, I mainly like to record standup, but would like a camera for doing a short film too.

One of the ways I like to help recover the costs of my equipment is by making DVDs for other comedians. So I would like to record the entire event in HDV, mainly so I can have my set in HD when I need it, but since most people want DVDs, I could quickly just pull out their sets from the cards.

So that being said, I was wondering about some of the cameras that have been brought up in this thread that would be a jump from the HC1 (hmm.. probably all of them right?). If the Z7 is at $6500, then that's definitely out the running. But perhaps the FX7 is something to consider.

This camera would let me record both to a miniDV tape and a CF card? I would be able to go ahead and record in HD to tape while doing SD to my CF card?

And from jumping from an HC1, would an FX7 not be a bad jump in terms of price? (The other cameras that have caught my eye are the AG-HVX200 & The Canon XH-A1 - with the Canon seeming more reasonable in terms of price).

i am just curious, how can you shoot events professionally with
an HC1 or equivalent as your only camera? Cmon man, you are the
$700 guy, looking to spend $6K on a camera to charge $1200? If you're
charging that little, stay at home.

Wow. That was a constructive comment...

i am just curious, how can you shoot events professionally with
an HC1 or equivalent as your only camera? Cmon man, you are the
$700 guy, looking to spend $6K on a camera to charge $1200? If you're
charging that little, stay at home.

I'm not really looking to shoot events professionally. Just trying to get some information on the cameras that the OPs interested in and that there seems to be a nice discussion on. Or a similar camera.

I'm not looking to spend $6k nor am I looking to charge $1200.

Well, in short, buy a used Z1u to go with your HC1. If your not looking
to do this professionally, spend the least amount you can for the best
camera you can get. Either that or a new Canon XH-A1. AT LEAST
have two cameras.

I am going to be dead honest with you regarding wedding an event business. MOST people are looking to spend as little as possible on video. So, keep your investments to a minimum, especially in this crappy economic situation. Wedding video is the first thing cut, and the last thing added for a bride.
Had a guy call me this week for a May 3rd wedding, and he wanted way
cheap at the last minute since they just decided they wanted a video, told
him sorry bro. and my prices aren't really high for what I give them. Same thing for next year, 2009, many inquiries, they don't want to spend more
than $1500. The new gear is just too expensive for what many consider to be a luxury item at a wedding.

Great thread guys. I'm currently an HC1 owner looking to upgrade and really would like to get a card/tape solution. I'm interested in getting a camera from more of a hobbyist's position. Right now, I mainly like to record standup, but would like a camera for doing a short film too.

One of the ways I like to help recover the costs of my equipment is by making DVDs for other comedians. So I would like to record the entire event in HDV, mainly so I can have my set in HD when I need it, but since most people want DVDs, I could quickly just pull out their sets from the cards.

So that being said, I was wondering about some of the cameras that have been brought up in this thread that would be a jump from the HC1 (hmm.. probably all of them right?). If the Z7 is at $6500, then that's definitely out the running. But perhaps the FX7 is something to consider.

This camera would let me record both to a miniDV tape and a CF card? I would be able to go ahead and record in HD to tape while doing SD to my CF card?

And from jumping from an HC1, would an FX7 not be a bad jump in terms of price? (The other cameras that have caught my eye are the AG-HVX200 & The Canon XH-A1 - with the Canon seeming more reasonable in terms of price).

While all of the cameras will represent a "jump", that includes the price... the question is what quality of recording are you trying to achieve and at what price point? If you're just charging a few bucks to dump some footage for fellow performers, your quality needs probably don't justify spending big $$$. And the EX1 and Z7 represent a serious investment...

Your HC1 isn't a bad camera, although it's "older". I wouldn't be embarrased to shoot with it, though it's noisier in low light than I like. You mentioned the now discontinued FX7, and that is an "in-between" step up camera, but it's off the market and no replacement sems to be in the wings... maybe a FX1? Older, but still not a bad cam...

Shooting on a budget, you sometimes have to make compromises, and putting the latest and therefore most expensive gear online in a contracting economy may not be a great plan. I buy my stuff gently used, still waiting for these new high end toys to filter down to where I can consider them! My FX7 is satisfactory for now, with a couple smaller cams for multicam shoots.

Early posters at the top of this list hope the Z7 will equal the PD170's low light performance, and you'd think from Sony's spec that at 1.5 lux, it does. But for some unknown reason (Unknown? Ha!) the Z7's lux measurement is measured with a shutter speed of 1/25th sec, so gaining it an undeserved extra stop over the PD170.

The other hope was that the wide-angle converters would easily transfer from the Z1 to the Z7. They may, and they may not - only testing will tell - as with all things.

tom.

Well, in short, buy a used Z1u to go with your HC1. If your not looking
to do this professionally, spend the least amount you can for the best
camera you can get. Either that or a new Canon XH-A1. AT LEAST
have two cameras.
...

While all of the cameras will represent a "jump", that includes the price... the question is what quality of recording are you trying to achieve and at what price point? If you're just charging a few bucks to dump some footage for fellow performers, your quality needs probably don't justify spending big $$$. And the EX1 and Z7 represent a serious investment...

Your HC1 isn't a bad camera, although it's "older". I wouldn't be embarrased to shoot with it, though it's noisier in low light than I like. You mentioned the now discontinued FX7, and that is an "in-between" step up camera, but it's off the market and no replacement sems to be in the wings... maybe a FX1? Older, but still not a bad cam...

.....

Scott & Dave, thanks for getting back to me with your comments. I'm not looking to do weddings or anything professional, this is more a hobby purchase. I would like to be able to record myself doing stand up with the maximum quality in my price range and would also like to have a camera that's better for finally embarking on a short film project.

I've had the HC1 for two years now and it has definitely served me well. For recording stand up, the quality comes out pretty good with me pretty much keeping everything in auto (I usually shift the AE down -2 only). I've never really done anything post-recording when importing my footage and handle it usually with iMovie HD. I do own Final Cut Express though for when I finally get around to recording something more than just stand up.

Hearing me talk, I'm sure you're getting a good idea of the very beginner's level that I am at. I know it takes more than a nice camera for a short film, but I'm hoping to provide the camera, and my script & story to someone who knows more about this, and together, we can do something good together.

So far the XH-A1 has caught my eye. I'm looking and hearing it has been postded around this forum for about $2800 used and I saw on B&H that it's a little over $3k new. Someone posted this short vid they did with their XH-A1 ( http://www.vimeo.com/754479 ) and I was pretty blown away with it. I'm not sure I could do something like that with my HC1.

As for the Z1u and the FX1, well the Z1u may still be out of my range, but even then, I saw that someone had said they were liking their XH-A1 better because of the 24p mode.

The only downside to getting a Canon is that I have really liked the Sony quality. but I'm not sure if there's anything comparable by Sony in the price range that I'm looking in (sub $3k).

Both of your comments have seriously made me consider not selling my HC1 when I get a new cam though. Would it be easy to marry footage from my second HC1 to a primary Xh-01? If not by me, perhaps by someone who'd be a little more familiar with ths? Plus, perhaps I wouldn't like taking something more high end around to some simpler events worth recording.

If I get a $3k cam, over the course of probably more than a year, I should be able to make the money back that I spend on the camera recording other people's stand up. $15 here, $20 there.. etc. It's not really about the income (I have my normal day job), it's more about me not feeling guilty for spending money on the equipment. But honestly, what really got me interested in posting in this thread was because of the discussion on recording HD to tape and SD to a CF card. That would be perfect because most people who order a video of their set just need a DVD or something. So if I'm performing somewhere, I could easily record the important part to me (my set) along with the rest of the show in HD, and easily dump of their sets to get their DVDs out.

I think that's why I'm misleading people into thinking I'm talking about weddings because that does seem to be what most posts are about (though in my defense, the topic is not).