I have a project that I am resurrecting and want to know what's the best way to convert my HDV footage to ProRes. I have half the tapes already imported as HDV. Should I trash the files and import/convert via FireWire? Or can/should I convert the loaded files?

I don't think you can convert on the fly via FireWire. You can, however, export an HDV tape from a player via component or HD-SDI (if so equipped) into a BlackMagic or AJA card, you can go into ProRes that way.

it's possible in FCP 6.02 to capture HDV via firewire. (at least on a MAC PRO) There are some limitations. For instance you cannot use the log and capture function, and the whole tape will be captured start to finish and break into multiple clips which you will have to log and rename.

You also have two quality options ProRes or ProRes HQ.

Mike,

sounds like the footage is already recorded to HDV. In that case, converting to ProRes will do just one thing: increase its size. You can't add detail in the conversion that wasn't there in the first place.

Having said that, it can make sense when working with HDV footage to use ProRes as a codec for rendering. Take a look at this post (or the entire thread, for that matter):
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=697116&postcount=7

You'd then have ProRes for transitions, effects, etc. where the extra bandwidth can make a difference, but stick with the more compact HDV format for what may be the lion's share of your project.

Now, if you were to capture straight to ProRes instead of HDV, that would be an entirely different story, but from what you wrote it doesn't sound like that's an option.

- Martin

I have a project that I am resurrecting and want to know what's the best way to convert my HDV footage to ProRes. I have half the tapes already imported as HDV. Should I trash the files and import/convert via FireWire? Or can/should I convert the loaded files?

Just set a new sequence to ProRes in the HD flavor you are using (720p, 1080i...) and bring in the HDV files as if you are editing a regular HDV sequence. This works just fine on my five year old Dual 2ghz G5 although the sequence plays back in preview mode (lower res) during editing. You'll need to render everything eventually. I edited a mixed HDV codec sequence this way and the result was great. A benefit is that only the used footage is converted to ProRes thus saving disk space and your time.

Officially, the only Apple approved way to capture in Pro Res is with an external device from a third party company. There are some unofficial work-arounds that capture in Pro-Res without the device (do a search here) but I am sure that this is very dependent on the computer you have.

Hi,
Is there any quality difference (I assume there is not) with the original tape = HDV if you do:

a) transform HDV --> ProRes in a batch recompress
b) capture with Firewire directly to ProRes
c) create independent subclip from clip

What I do is capturing the whole tape in HDV, after that, I log and make subclips, with MediaManger delete 'not used material' and recompress to ProRes. And make subclips independent. If you do that, the subclips are no longer pointing to the original clips but became clips themself. The original clip I delete.


Is making independent subclips in HDV materal an action that loses quality? I know it makes an I-frame on the editpoint, but do the original clip and the independent subclip differ in quality? Is it just a copy, or is it recompressing and so losing image q.?


I assume: If the tape is HDV, going in batch re-compress or Firewire capturing directly to ProRes is not making any difference.

What I do is capturing the whole tape in HDV, after that, I log and make subclips, with MediaManger delete 'not used material' and recompress to ProRes. And make subclips independent. .

Going from HDV to ProRes is transcoding with a lossy codec. That means that you will be losing quality in the conversion. More than if you just edited the clips in HDV. Asking the media manager to break the master clips and create new clips will potentially transcode as brand new GOPs have to be generated and the MPEG compression has to be re-applied. If you want to avoid loosing quality you have to use a lossless codec like Uncompressed or SheerVideo.

Hi, thanks.
That ProRes is a lossy codec I knew, but that was not the question, I wonder if there is difference in creating ProRes.

And if the media manager is to break the master clips and create new clips, is the new GOP not the same as creating edit points (new I frame so new Mpeg compression) that FCP is creating?

ProRes in theory is a lossly codec. in practice, not really. I've been forced to transcode HDV clips to prores because some apps don't like HDV. I've not seen anything from the trip. Apple showed pro res something like 18 generations down next to the original and it looked fine.

the best way to tell is this.

export a clip as prores, then re-import into FCP. place the original clip on V1, Pro Res clip on V2. set V2 clip composite mode to difference. you'll probably see a completely black screen, or at worst, maybe a few pixels lit up. thats all that changed. Pro Res HQ and being in 10bit is also good for color correction. no it doesn't add what was there, but it does allow for more control. its bad that apple isn't clear about when pro res is 8bit or 10bit though

Great, thanks. I noticed no difference in the testing I did. I cant see it.
For Color (FCP) I need ProRes.

I have raid space enough, and can easy start editing HDV or Prores HQ, just seeking for a way to edit, do compositing and colorcorrecting.

Seeking for the best option: doing the HDV edit + setting render effects to ProRes, or transcode HDV to ProRes after capturing. (in the same process in processing subclips to clips). I'll have to go ProRes anyway to do the cc.

Interesting.

I am wondering as well which workflow works best:

A

(1) Capture HDV
(2) Composition
(3) Recompress to ProRes
(4) Add graphics, titles etc.
(5) Render out to delivery format

or B

(1) Capture ProRes
(2) Composition
(3) Add graphics, titles etc.
(4) Render out

or C

Edit HDV files in a ProRes timeline.

Will I suffer quality loss in the first workflow? Or does it not degrade image quality when I recompress to ProRes halfway a project? HDV capturing gives me better options but ProRes is much easier for color correction, working with layered graphics, photos etcetera.

Editing HDV works like a charm so basically A would be a nice workflow but I would not like to degrade the image quality because HDV is heavily compressed and suffers generation loss.

interesting is to know how the ProRes effects rendering works (if you did that set up) while editing in HDV native. see this post from Nate: http://dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=697318&postcount=9

-Decode HDV to frame buffer
-Process effect
-Re-encode to ProRes

I think you can edit in HDV, and right before you make your final render change the sequence render settings to pro res and export. Is that what the post above me is getting at?

C, then B.... why A ? why do more work ? also you lose TC & reel name.

FWIW, you can setup a HDV TL, then in prefs have FCP render to ProRes which is much faster then rendering to HDV, and better quality.

So what are the right settings for scenario c?

Audio/video settings

Timeline: HDV (or should this be Apple ProRes 422?)

Capture: HDV

User preferences

Render control, render codec: Apple ProRes 422

Is making independent subclips in HDV materal an action that loses quality? I know it makes an I-frame on the editpoint, but do the original clip and the independent subclip differ in quality? Is it just a copy, or is it recompressing and so losing image q.?

I know I lose quality when I export a subclip as a movie (To the same HDV 1080p25 format as the original file) with my HDV material. Discovered this yesterday, as I suddenly got a lot of artifacts in my footage, and turns out final cut made it in the export. So, I converted all the material I needed to process to ProRes (I saved it directly to ProRes from Final Cut, maybe it's better to do it with compressor, but these were pretty small clips, and the quality seemed to be fine, at least tons better than HDV.), and now everything works fine..

Your certainly can log and capture HDV in FCP6, and I've done it on a three year old G5 iMac.

Direct capture to IAC will do what you say above.

Your certainly can log and capture HDV in FCP6, and I've done it on a three year old G5 iMac.

Direct capture to IAC will do what you say above.

Log and capture works very poorly with my XHA1, I was forced to start "Capture now" and take it from there instead.

What equipment do you use if you think "Log and capture" works as well for HDV as say it used to do for DV?

What equipment do you use if you think "Log and capture" works as well for HDV as say it used to do for DV?

I don't think, I know it worked fine with a G5 iMac and a Sony Z1E, HDV native capture.

Did this once from an EDL generated by Avid. No problems at all (other than the editor didn't enter separate reel names for the half dozen tapes used.)

Did you use 24f mode on the XH A1? Compatibility with that and FCP is cranky I think (maybe it's fixed now) so maybe that's your problem.

Dylan

I don't think, I know it worked fine with a G5 iMac and a Sony Z1E, HDV native capture.

Did this once from an EDL generated by Avid. No problems at all (other than the editor didn't enter separate reel names for the half dozen tapes used.)

Did you use 24f mode on the XH A1? Compatibility with that and FCP is cranky I think (maybe it's fixed now) so maybe that's your problem.

Dylan

25f, maybe that's it. :) Either way, I'm fine with importing the whole thing now that I've gotten used to it, guess it's more gentle on my camera too, as I use that as my deck. (I do miss how well organized/labeled my clips were when I used DV and Log and Capture though..)

So what are the right settings for scenario c?

Audio/video settings

Timeline: HDV (or should this be Apple ProRes 422?)

Capture: HDV

User preferences

Render control, render codec: Apple ProRes 422

Can anyone confirm that these are the right settings?

I don't think, I know it worked fine with a G5 iMac and a Sony Z1E, HDV native capture.

Did this once from an EDL generated by Avid. No problems at all (other than the editor didn't enter separate reel names for the half dozen tapes used.)

Did you use 24f mode on the XH A1? Compatibility with that and FCP is cranky I think (maybe it's fixed now) so maybe that's your problem.

Dylan

Works fine for me too. 1080i50 with an XH-A1. Managed to use log and capture absolutely fine - works better than capture now IMO as when you click capture now it takes a couple of seconds to starting capturing properly, meanwhile the tape is rolling. It may be my computer (MacBook Pro 2.6Ghz, 4GB Ram) but i'm not convinced by that! I wanna get a firestore as soon as a) i can afford one! b) they seem to sort out reliability issues with the QT format, then i won't have to worry about capturing from tape and can just use it as an archive!

Log and capture will wear out your camera tape heads a little bit faster. I think that when you capture the whole tape and create subclips, it will be easier on your camera tape heads and maybe a bit faster. But when you have multiple items on one tape, log and capture is the way to go. I have a Canon XL-H1 and have looked at the firestore but I am not sure how reliable it is. I have read many complaints about failing harddisks inside it and also about the timecode on the firestore being different from the timecode on tape. Those things can make things very complicated. Maybe the new model fixes all of this.