Alot of people are making the jump from DV to HD and so for many it will mean the purchase of a new machine. I think it would be a good idea to see what type of editing systems people are working with and how many of those people are getting smooth playback when editing nativley with the EX1's highest resolution on the timeline.

FCP is flawless (except for an import bug that we assume will be fixed, and is no big deal http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=111999).

Playback and editing are perfect on my MacBook Pro and my Dual G5.

Just make sure you have a large enough screen for the 1080 stuff.

I'll 2nd Eric. It's amazing that my aging Dual G5 can handle XDCAM without a hitch. FCP 6.0.2 is a spectacular edit system. Apple and Sony really jumped on EX1 compatibility.

im really suprised about the dual G5 handling the files perfectly, i tried to download some example files from the EX1 on my pc 2 core duo system with 2gb ram and at full resolution it struggled to pay back smoothly. Think i might jump over to a mac for my new system

Yes. I'm not just being a Mac head here. The Mac handling of the EX1 footage surprised even me with how well it works.

There's good reason why people are moving to Final Cut Pro. It's really not just hype. Apple knows who's buying their "towers." It's not just FCP, it's the computer it runs on. It's the video industry that "butter's their bread" in that end of the market.

BTW the performance you'd get on a base model Intel Mac tower would be significantly better than the Dual G5s.

i guess its mac for me then. There seems to be so many options tho and compared to pc its soooooo expensive, i mean a the cost of a mac monitor is nearly the same cost of a high end pc. Im sold on getting a mac for the EX1 but imscared im going to put my money in the wrong place, i.e the bulk of the cost on an 8 core system while sacrificing ram and graphic card speed in the process. but i have seen a deal which is:
8 core or quad core MacPro up to 3.2Ghz
Two 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon “Harpertown” processors
2GB memory (800MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
320GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive
16x double-layer SuperDrive
ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT graphics with 256MB memory
£1750

im quite tempted

i guess its mac for me then. and compared to pc its soooooo expensive,

Not at all. You have to figure in REAL cost of ownership. I was senior engineer at a video post facility that had both Macs and Windows boxes. Factor in trouble shooting time and ease of use and the Macs were more profitable. Nearly all the editors started refusing to work on the Windows boxes.

Macs all use standard stuff now. You're not limited to Apple monitors at all. There is a reason why many editors love their Apple Cinema Displays though. Many will get Dells monitors though.

Daniel,

Looks like a good system to me. I just ordered the new 8-core 3.2 Ghz, but the 2.8 is so close in performance and so much less expensive. I might splurge for the slightly more expensive NVIDIA card, but not a necessity. All of the cards work with a 30" monitor, which I do feel is a necessity for editing EX1 or any other 1080 footage.

Of course you don't need to get an Apple monitor. Dell's monitors use the same panels and are much less expensive. And the newest Dell, the 3008WFP-HC actually surpasses the Apple 30" in terms of color gamut (or so I have read) and definitely has more input options. But rumor has it that Apple might come out with something new next week.

i guess its mac for me then. There seems to be so many options tho and compared to pc its soooooo expensive, i mean a the cost of a mac monitor is nearly the same cost of a high end pc. Im sold on getting a mac for the EX1 but imscared im going to put my money in the wrong place, i.e the bulk of the cost on an 8 core system while sacrificing ram and graphic card speed in the process. but i have seen a deal which is:
8 core or quad core MacPro up to 3.2Ghz
Two 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon “Harpertown” processors
2GB memory (800MHz DDR2 fully-buffered DIMM ECC)
320GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s 7200-rpm hard drive
16x double-layer SuperDrive
ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT graphics with 256MB memory
£1750

im quite tempted

Sounds a good setup Dan. But you need biger hard drives!!

I have a quad core intel mac with 3.0Ghz
8Gb RAM
Two Hard drives. One 500Gb, the secondary 750Gb.

30 inch Apple Cinema monitor, superdrive, etc.

Works a treat. Looking to buy an external Hard drive for extra storage very soon. Something like:
G-Tech G-RAID2 1TB RAID 0 Storage

You might get a better deal on Ebay.co.uk. Watch it for a couple of weeks and bargains can be had (but make sure they are not scammers and demand to pick it up and pay when you have it!)

Cheers
Steve

Yes - agreed - much more hard drive is needed. But buy those after the fact. They're simple to install and much cheaper. Same with RAM.

I agree about the monitor, i have heard alot of good stuff about it. Ok then, for myself and evrey other potential EX1 owner in the future what spec would you reccoemend (in detail) for someone wanting to work with uncompressed 1080p, taking advantage of final cut studio 6 and after effects and using "Color" to color correct? It would be interesting to see what is actually needed to achieve this as the other posts ive searched ive found that people just list their 'dream machine' rather than a realistic machine.

I have no experience working with uncompressed on my Mac but have certainly worked with Apple ProRes 422 and Color on my G5. Color is a bit sluggish on the old system but should do quite nicely on the 8-core.

That said, it is still workable, even on the old system.

For any of this stuff, massive hard drives are key. For uncompressed, massive, fast hard drives.

Get the biggest monitor you can afford. Min would be 24 inch, but if you can go to 30 inch then do so. I have been using a 30 inch monitor for a while and even now wish it 6 inches bigger!

OK, I'm fairly new at the computer editing game - I've done some stuff on FC Express, but most of my previous work has been simple linear stuff (2-3 VCRs, mixer, output to tape, amen). I know, dark ages.

So now, moving to the XDCAM-EX world, I need to commit to the computer. I'd initially planned to get a new Mac and FC Studio, and may still do that. I'm noticing, of course, that Sony is pushing Vegas. I have two questions - one, do folks have comments on Final Cut vs Vegas vs any other program? Secondly - re hardware - I'm thinking that I should go Mac, as with the Intel Macs I could actually run Vegas or any other Microsoft/PC-based software if I chose to do so. Is it naive (or just stupid) to think that I could edit with a Microsoft/PC program on a Mac?

Comments/thoughts?

Hi Bob. Im in the same position as you really, been using vegas for years and very happily edit on it, however...windows is just letting me down time and time again, it's very hard to feel secure editing now a days. Im moving over to the mac, originally i was going to run vegas on it but after learning (a little bit) of final cut pro i have come to learn that although it takes twice aslong to do what im used to doing in vegas it has a work flow that suits me better and it has a great support sytem from third party vendors. The major cononcern for me between vegas and final cut pro was the way im used to editing. I myself prefer timeline editing but final cut pro is a 3 point edit system (although you can edit on the timeline if you want but i find it orkward), so thats something to think about.

Dan, a great way to learn FCP is to download the tutorials from Larry Jordan from Lynda.com. Larry is a great teacher and within a couple of weeks you can be editing like a pro. Well, perhaps not like a pro but you will know your way around and be able to do what you want.

Hi Bob. Im in the same position as you really, been using vegas for years and very happily edit on it, however...windows is just letting me down time and time again, it's very hard to feel secure editing now a days. Im moving over to the mac, originally i was going to run vegas on it but after learning (a little bit) of final cut pro i have come to learn that although it takes twice aslong to do what im used to doing in vegas it has a work flow that suits me better and it has a great support sytem from third party vendors. The major cononcern for me between vegas and final cut pro was the way im used to editing. I myself prefer timeline editing but final cut pro is a 3 point edit system (although you can edit on the timeline if you want but i find it orkward), so thats something to think about.

Daniel, I am in the same situation as you: considering moving from Windows over to a MacPro with FCP for more reliability and a more stable platform as opposed to spending the money on a PC with Vista.

I wrote this threat earlier:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=111826

(wouldn't it be cool to have a Mac version of Sony Vegas...)

And the tutorials on lynda.com are great, I just tried a few of them.

Regards,
Erwin

And there i was thinking i was the only person using lynda.com :) yeh they have great tutorials on pretty much everything. Erwin i was reading your previous thread before and it does seem we are in similar positions, i would really love vegas on the mac!!! Im defo moving over to the mac, im sorry but windows have failed me, i mean is it too much to ask to just work properly. All machines are prone to fail but some more than others and windows likes to throw a new spanner in the works all the time. I dream about editing without worrying if the next time i turn my computer on it says "system disk fail, please format"

Sounds like you are dreaming of a Mac!

I wonder if your experience would be any better on a Mac running Windows/Vegas. You could use your Windows partition solely for editing and do the other stuff, email, chat boards, etc. on the Mac partition. Probably not, but worth a try.

Wouldn't consider that. Stick with FCP. It does the lot and is native to the mac. Vegas is fine but IMO FCP is far more powerful and not difficult to learn. I was editing footage on it (FCP3) the day I installed it with just trial and error.

Day to day working on it becomes second nature. You won't look back for one second.

Steve,

I agree - FCP is really great. And very easy to learn. I have taught people to use it and have had them editing within an hour.

It also has the largest installed base of any pro NLE and Apple has thus far been very good about supporting its users.

And editing from the timeline is a very streamlined part of the process. I have been at it for 10 years, since v. 1 and have never used three point editing on it.

Aloha Daniel,
Could you list some more details about your pc system (Processor speed,video card, hard drive speed, editing software, OS...) ? If I stay with a pc in the future and do get this camera, I'd like to know what isn't working so far.

Also, are any of the Mac people using Avid to edit with any sucess?
Thanks,
WZ

That advice is very encouraging, im definetly sold on the mac option now anyway. Wayne, my PC setup is as follows:
intel e6400 core 2 duo 2.13ghz
2gb ram
300gb sata 7200 hd
256 radeon graphics card (nothing to do with performance in vegas though)

it handles hdv 1080i fine from my previous sony zi, but 1080p hq from ex1 is very slow. Its almost like im working on a series of still images rather than a video (although technically it is a series of images but you know what i mean)

Ouch Daniel ,
That hurts...in the wallet I mean. I have an almost duplicate system as yours except a quadro fx 2500 card and avid xpress pro. Thank you for the info.
Aloha,
Wayne Z

I know I'm in the minority here, but I've been VERY happy with video editing on a PC for the past several years.

For my EX1, the setup I'm working with is as follows:

HP xw9300 with 2 dual-core AMD 2.8 GHz processors
2 GB RAM
ATI XT2900 graphics card
CalDigit SV2R HD RAID Array - 2.5 TB
Adobe Premiere Pro CS3
Matrox Axio hardware

A hardware-accelerated setup is certainly different from just a PC running Vegas (or Premiere) or a Mac running FCP. The array of I/Os appeals to me (SDI/HD-SDI, component, composite, S-Video, AES/EBU, XLR), along with real-time monitoring on whatever monitor I choose.

Axio does a great job handling the footage off my EX1 (including 1080p/24), but I do have to convert it to MXF first. It's a minor snag in an otherwise flawless workflow. Matrox is working on native support for the EX format, but it may be a little while.

Concerning stability, I'm VERY selective about what programs I install and how I use this machine. No e-mail, no MS Office, work to have nothing running the background. So far it's been rock-solid, running Windows XP SP2. DON'T get Vista for video editing at this point. It's just not stable enough yet.

XP, on the other hand, is a pretty solid and stable setup, provided your computer can handle what you throw at it.

I'm working on my "old" first revison dual G5 2Ghz, leopard, final cut pro. I just upgrade RAM to be 4Go and, as it only handle 2 drives, add 2 dual S-ata cards (quad port was not out at the time) with 4 S-ata drives with software RAID.

I have no problem with EX1 footage. Conversion to prores HQ is slow, as rendering, but working fine.

I way upgrade to a MacPro 8 cores and the nvidia 8800GT soon. You can have up to 4 drives, so having one for system and 3 with RAID for editing should be fine.

As other said, you have the choice to take your time at work, or take your time debuging windows... I go for a mac :) You'll see it's not more expensive as a PC when you compare to productivity and ease of work.

I have no experience on avid though.

Wayne, i wouldn't worry too much as i've been told that my specs should be able to process the 1080p hq footage ok but of course it doesnt, however that may be down to the pc world again as i do notice so many things running in the background which change how my system operates from one time to the next. One problem i have with windows is the fact that i wanted to keep my editing machine AWAY from the internet because we all know how suseptable xp is to viruses, but there are a few instances which require the net like framework 3, ms updates etc. This now means before i connect to the net i have to install a virus protection package which isnt any good until i connect to the internet anyway to download the updates and even tho it sounds extreme, within that time you'd be suprised what crap can end up on your machine. So anyway wayne back to my original message, ive been told it should work but for me it doesnt, although it plays a variety of of other files fine

Sony Vegas here. Personally I think it all boils down to what your comfortable with and I always viewed the whole PC vs. Mac and Vegas vs. FCP vs. Avid arguments a tad bit silly. Keeping in mind that editing used to be done with nothing more then scissors and tape, at the end of the day editing has much more to do with skill and talent than does with what program you're using.

I'm actually buying a new computer and this is the system that should be geting here this week:

Proc: Intel Core 2 Quad QX9650
MB: GIGABYTE GA-X38-DQ6 LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX
Ram: 4 Gigs of CORSAIR Dominator 1GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500)
C Drive Raided: 2 74GB Western Digital Raptor 10,000 RPM 16MB Cache
D Drive Raided: 2 1TB HITACHI Deskstar 7K1000 7200 RPM 32MB Cache
Video Card: 8600 GT
Power Supply: 850W

- Ray

Raymond, with those specs it's tempting to stay in PC world. Stop making me want to change my mind ;)

Let us know what you end up purchasing, Daniel.

If I were in your shoes, I would spec out two or three different systems and see if you can get your hands on something similar at a dealership to play around with.

i will defo let you know, thanks for the support

I would highly recommend the Macrosystem Smart Edit 7 Casablanca NLE. I have used this system since it was released in the mid 90's. Macrosystem has continued to be a cutting edge leader in dedicated stand alone video editing systems. They are a very stable reliable NLE. The interface makes the learning curve very minimal. You can edit in DV, or HDV, and with new models soon to be released, you will be able to edit AVCHD. Macrosystem will likely support solid state in the near future also. Contact me and I will forward more info on these great editing systems at: joel_brooks_113@hotmail.com.

Joel Brooks
Video Producer

Nothing being posted about Dell workstations????

They are pretty nice setups...

Dell is bringing out a couple new workstations that should be killers...

Ok, I'll bite..

Dell 690, waiting for 64 bit drivers for some hardware (yeah right) to go to 64 bit.

2 Xeon Quads
Nvidia 4500
4GB Ram (capable to go to 32, or at least 20 if I keep the current ram)
Adaptec 4805 SAS Raid Card
4x750 SATA Drives
Dual DVD-R
Dual 24" Dell Monitors
Matrox X.2 Card (ok, I'm just moving over to HD from SD, so its an SD card)
Cineform
CS3

And I'm comfortable with CS3. Matrox in SD is fast, it won't do the 1920x1080 HD of EX-1, but Cineform will, it will do the 1440x1080 of HD in SD mode.

Thanks Syd....

Sounds like you got a screamer there... :-)

Sorry if I missed this in an earlier forum, but do you have to have FCP 6 to work with the PMW footage? Or will 5.0.4 work with the footage?

Thanks!

You need FCP v.6.0.2. No earlier version has the XDCAM EX codec.

- Don

Avid Liquid 7.2 has no problems working with 35Mbit XDcam EX files.
No reencoding at all and there's even native support for 24p 1920x1080 mpg2, yay :D


regards Dennis

double post

Vegas Pro 8 here, works a charm with my EX1, inc 1920x1080. Gives you smart render as well. So for cuts only edits no transcoding. You can trim clips and burn them to whatever or archive them in the native XDCAM codec. I also get the essence markers on the timeline. Playback performance is only limited by the speed of your hardware. Buy an OctoFlex if you want a real screamer with 8 cores.

Well I'm going to give Vegas Pro 8 a chance on my system next week...

Allways wanted to play with Vegas and B&H has the upgrade for $99....

and they have the Vegas 6.0 for $79... needed for the upgrade to work

So thats a pretty cheap experiment to get into Vegas 8..... :-)

Yesterday I have seen an Axio LE with Premiere CS3 on a HP 9400. The system looks great with real time effects and real time slow mo (no rendering as long as you open a new project matching the video format that the footage was shot with).

However I'm slightly concerned on a technical issue. The Axio needs a PCI-X slot. Now I'm under the impression that PCI-X is an ageing system being replaced by PCI-Express. It also seems that most motherboards nowadays do not have a PCI-X slot. So what will happen if the motherboard decides to call it a day and needs to be replaced in a year's time? Will I be able to find a PCI-X motherboard? Or am I missing something?

PCI-X is the 64-bit, high speed version of the common 32-bit PCI bus. Only server motherboards and perhaps a few specialized, high-end workstations offered PCI-X slots. The last version of PCI-X could transfer up to 4.3 GigaByte/second, but those cards and motherboards were not widely adopted due to the arrival of PCI-Express.

PCI-Express is indeed the new hotness and capable of transfer rates up to 16 GigaBytes/second at the present time.

So you are correct that PCI-X is an investment in a dead technology. I would NOT buy a PCI-X card, especially if it costs around $4K. Contact Matrox to find out if they plan to release a more portable PCI-Express version of their products. If they want to stay in business, they also better add support for 64-bit versions of Windows XP and Vista.

I noticed that the Matrox video editing solutions force you to use only computers on an approved list. This tells me that even if you find a replacement motherboard offering PCI-X slots, the Matrox cards may not be compatible.

As we type, the PC industry is experiencing a big technology revolution. Intel is presently releasing new motherboard chipsets to support some awesome quad-core and eight-core CPUs arriving late in 2008. It's a certainty that these faster computers will NOT support PCI-X. Video production will strongly benefit from these faster computers, so you don't want to be tied to old technology.

Of course, PCI-Express also gets faster each year. In fact, there's a new PCIe 3.0 standard being finalized that boasts impressive 32 GB/s transfer rates. The good news is that all PCIe versions are backwards compatible.

Also using Avid Liquid 7.2. Edits native XDCAM files - and works flawlessly. I guess Liquid has an advantage in that it was designed as an MPEG editor from the ground up - which is why it works so well.

Craig

Could you outline your system a little more in detail? I have a Dual 2GHz G5, 2.5GB RAM, 10.4.11, FCP 6.0.2, two regular drives internal, ATI XT800XT 256, SATA card in slot 2 or 3, two striped drives out in an external box talking to the SATA card. Sony MXF driver, EX importer 2.1, both working fine.

I see the clips, can play them well in the Sony player, but as soon as I import them into 6.0.2 I get massive wait times for clips to load and stuttering motion.

Can't figure it out. The original files are on the same striped drives, and both they and the imported QT files play fine without stuttering. It's just the FCP 6.0.2 that's doing it...


What's going on?

Chris




I'll 2nd Eric. It's amazing that my aging Dual G5 can handle XDCAM without a hitch. FCP 6.0.2 is a spectacular edit system. Apple and Sony really jumped on EX1 compatibility.

I've seen that behavior from time to time on my MacBook Pro and have never been able to pinpoint it. Takes like 5 to 8 seconds after you hit play for the clip to start, and then its playback is tenuous.

I don't have a solution except to say that since it happens on my Intel, it's probably not a G5 thing.

Hey Eric
Maybe it's a QT 7.4 thing?

Dual 2.3GHz, PCI-X slots empty, 1.5GB RAM, AGP slot ATI Radeon 9600XT 128MB VRAM, Hitachi 500MB 2nd internal hard drive, OS 10.4.11, FCP 6.0.2, QT 7.3.1
So we're talking about minimal system and XDCAM EX play without issue in FCP. No spinning beach balls. I have less RAM and less VRAM than you.

Craig

Could you outline your system a little more in detail? I have a Dual 2GHz G5, 2.5GB RAM, 10.4.11, FCP 6.0.2, two regular drives internal, ATI XT800XT 256, SATA card in slot 2 or 3, two striped drives out in an external box talking to the SATA card. Sony MXF driver, EX importer 2.1, both working fine.

I see the clips, can play them well in the Sony player, but as soon as I import them into 6.0.2 I get massive wait times for clips to load and stuttering motion.

Can't figure it out. The original files are on the same striped drives, and both they and the imported QT files play fine without stuttering. It's just the FCP 6.0.2 that's doing it...


What's going on?

Chris

Hey Eric
Maybe it's a QT 7.4 thing?

I can't remember, but I think it happened before 7.4.