Maybe someone on here can clue me in to what is happening in my situation. I'm shooting with a DVX100 using a Sennhiesser ME66. I have everything set up on the camera for phantom power.
Here's my problem: When shooting at a wedding gig or what have you- during loud noises like the crowd cheering during the formal entrances at the reception I can't avoid distortion. I adjust the levels in such a way that it doesn't spike. Yet the audio becomes incredibly shrill and crackly when a loud event happens. I monitor the levels closely and according to the levels there should be no distortion at all?!

As far as I know I don't have this problem if I simply use the onboard mic and adjust the levels- only when I use the Sennheisser ME66. I've heard it's an extremely powerfull mic- could it be that it's feeding the camera a decible level thats beyond it's threshold?! Either way I would think adjusting the levels would remedy that- corrrect?!

Often, the microphone itself overloads. The only thing you
can do is move the camera away from the source,
UP if not to the side. You can also use a limiter, but I haven't
seen anything too portable.

Shotguns in general and especially the Sennheiser overload very easily. It's the nature of the beast.

I much prefer the Sony microphone that came with my DSR-300. It isn't as directional but it can handle gun shots that previously I had to record using a Shure SM81C.

It is my opinion that shotguns are great for dialog and miserable for most other applications.

So my problem is "mic overload"? I thought it was a problem with the DVX, thank gosh thats not the problem. I purposely shelled out the extra cash to get the Sennheisser because of it's fidelity- little did I know it would cause a problem in wedding videography. Most of the time during the reception I have to run my auido off of my secondary cam (GL-1). Ugh, what's the point. I should have purchased a wireless lav mic and called it a day!

So there is nothing short of getting further away from the noise? No amount of audio level tweaking will help? UGH!

Some microphones have a 10 or 20 db attenuator. You could try an in-line attenuator but I don't think it is going to help much.

The Sennheiser is so 'hot' that we VX2000/PD150 folks have to purchase a version of the K6 module that has been turned down at the factory.

Still, a shotgun works by timing the arrival of sound to the microphone element such that sound, at the right frequency range and coming from the sides is cancelled. This works unless the sound is low frequency or the sound is very loud. The acusical-mechanical tuning that leads to the directionality can be overloaded and is transparent to low frequencies.

My AT835B, which is not as hot as the Senn, has the same problem in high sound levels. I switch to the Sony, the Shure SM81C which for sure will not overload (it works very well with cymbals which are the worst thing, I'm told, to mic.) or the ole Sure Beta58. If fact, I favor placing a plug-on transmitter on the Beta58 and taping it to the top of the DJ's speaker so the top of the microphone (with a fuzzy wind sock on it) just peaks over the front of the speaker.

Great sound every time, no reverb problems since the speaker swamps them out.

There have been times when I've put a dynamic lavaliere on my hat bill and used that for sound. Dynamic microphones are really good in these loud environments.

Yeah your right about the cymbals- I can tell it's the high frequencies that do it. Anytime the DJ's voice gets to almost a yell or some girls in the crowd scream the audio goes totaly "shrill". That's what was throwing me off because the levels indicated no distortion.

How can you get this version of the Senn (the one that is turned "down" at the factory)? Hmm, lol, wonder if the kind folks at Sennheisser would let me do a trade! *yeah right*

It's ashame too- other than it not being capable of picking up loud sounds- it's great for low to medium volumed sounds/vocals. It's so rich and lifelike. The onboard mic on the DVX sounds tinny in comparison.

If you're microphone is overloading at its diaphragm, attenuation of the electrical signal at *any*point, be it with a built-in attenuator or a limiter, will not undo distortion already done.

Are you using an automatic gain control option on your camcorder? You may want to try turning it down. I notice
that I have similar problems with my VX-2000 and its built-on
microphone. I've noticed that this happens when there is a major difference between the speaking levels of the camera
operator and the subject, or when the subject speaks quietly,
then laughs. I would guess that this happens because the
attack and release times of the AGC are too long. This prevents
reduces "pumping" at the expense of distortion of loud sounds that follow soft ones.

I understand that you can send your K6 in and it will be modified for a small sum. That said, it may not be appropriate for your camera. The underlying problem is that microphone is just not the correct choice for that venue.

It is somewhat difficult to overload a diaphram as you can see by the absolute SPLs most microphones will handle. Well into hurt-the-ears levels.

But shotguns are special animals and I think it is possible to have side sounds reinforce the front sound and cause significant diaphram overload, the exact opposite of what they normally do.

I normally only use a shotgun at a wedding if I cannot get two recording devices onto the groom and officiant. Then I'll set it on a stand and feed my MD recorder.

I use the MM-1 mic-preamp (I know I kind of repeating this but I love it).

Beside being a very quiet preamp it also includes an active limiter that will limit the output signal to avoid clipping (which is very bad when recording digital).

Dany

<<<-- Originally posted by Vince Denali :

Are you using an automatic gain control option on your camcorder? You may want to try turning it down. I notice
that I have similar problems with my VX-2000 and its built-on
microphone. I've noticed that this happens when there is a major difference between the speaking levels of the camera
operator and the subject, or when the subject speaks quietly,
then laughs. I would guess that this happens because the
attack and release times of the AGC are too long. This prevents
reduces "pumping" at the expense of distortion of loud sounds that follow soft ones. -->>>

The DVX has a "mic alc" which I turned off on the last wedding. It did seem to help a bit but didn't eliminate the distortion. It's gotta be overload at the diaphram level. Does this do any damage to the mic?

one thing which has been mentioned in another thread is to turn one channel lower (about 10-20db) than the other.. this way, most of what u pick up will be caught by the higher end mic, but the loud fluctuations wont be distorted on the lower gained mic.

In post these can be chopped and changed and normalised to suit... each channel

Personaly i dont have any probs with the DVX.. mind you im using the MC100 Pana mic, which is prolly set a lil lower than the senn...

Dont run the AGC its useless as it does not allow you to set configurations for different environments.

The gain trick mentioned above can be run from the internal mics at the same time as the shotgun.

<<<-- Originally posted by Peter Jefferson :
The gain trick mentioned above can be run from the internal mics at the same time as the shotgun. -->>>

Ya know what- I've heard of that first trick, turning one channel up and leaving one lower...however, I never even thought to use my ME66 and onboard mic simultaneously. Good idea- just not sure how to set it up. I'd have to connect the ME 66 into input one instead and behind the LCD switch input one to the mic and keep input 2 as the R-channel. The only problem with that is the fact that the onboard mic is stereo and will pick up audio primarily from the right side of the camera. Correct?

Have you ever tried using ME62/K6, the omni capsule? If you remove the ME66 capsule and cover the K6 with a foam, should that make an omni mic? Just a thought.

The K6 is just the amp. Has no microphone elements. Have to have a microphone capsule to get any sound.

Try using it with a battery. I noticed yesterday that when I replaced my battery with a fresh cell I had to lower my gain. less voltage may = less sensitivety. If that works you could even try using a nicad, they have even less output voltage than an alkaline.

I am having the same problem with my GL2 and its onboard mic. I'm going to try turning on the MIC ATTentuator on. Does anyone know if a windscreen will help ???...my problems seemed to happen when I was in front of the speakers at a wedding reception.

I also just bought an AZDEN SGM-2X mic...will try to use this mic next time in cardioid mode (short barrel) to see if it suffers from the same distortion or not.

How much does this MM1 preamp run?

Street price is $475 but I got mine from Audiomidi.com for $305 (incl. shipping). Zotz also has a very competitive price so I strongly recomend them too.

The more I use it the more I like it... it's so rugged compared to the GL2.

I've made a special cable coming out the MM1 to the cam that includes :
- XLR-XLR cable from the ME66 mounted on the camera (custom length, light cable)
- A 20dB pad (the MM-1 output is +4dBu) inside one of the XLR connector. MIC ATT is also used to provide the necessary additional 20dB attenuation.
That goes to one audio channel. On the other channel, I've just connected a small cable to the XLR connector that ends with a female 3.5mm jack so I can plug-in other audio devices directly to the cam without running a cable to it (wireless mic, lav...).

The good thing is you set your level on the GL2/XM2 and then you can forget about it and you would never see the "red of death" clipping information on the viewfinder again.

PS: I also carry another small patch cable XLR-XLR that provides 15dB attenuation so I can use it with the ME66 in case I'm in a very loud environment.

Dany.
(Maybe I should post schematics so you can make your own cables too).

I just bought an ME62, the omni capsule used for K6. I will try to use this in the reception. Has anyone use this set up? I am using a PD150, is it ok to use auto mode or manual mode audio?

Run one channel in auto and the other in manual, a couple of notches below 50% for a while until you get comfortable with the setup.

Thanks Mike. I forgot, I will be using one channel only for the ME62 and the other channel for my wireless mic connected to the soundboard. I will try both for experiment. I will post more result after my shooting on July 4th.

Just an update, I have finished my shooting today and used my PD150 at the reception. My set up is channel 1 - ME62, attenuation is on and in manual mode, volume is 65%, audio is perfect in any angle since ME62 is an omni directional, it's really good for reception. Channel 2, AKG pr81 wireless mic set up to auto, volume of transmitter is set to minimum. I got a very clean and nice audio in my shooting. Hopes this gives a tip to anyone looking for a good sound in a reception.

Thanks for the update Jun, it's great to see progress all the way to a successful conclusion. (especially since I am having the same problem!) I will definitely lose the ME66 for dance coverage at receptions, it is great for interviewing people before the loud music starts though.

Being new at this, I have two questions for connecting to a DJ's soundboard: First what type of line out connections do you typically see? The reception I did last week had dual RCA line outs, is this typical? Second what inputs will the Sennheiser EW100 wireless transmitters take? I assume it can take mic and line level inputs, but can it take any other type of output from a soundboard and if so what will they be labeled?

"First what type of line out connections do you typically see?"

ther eis no typical im afraid... usualyl if your going by the rec outs of the mixing DECK, it woudlo be RCAs, if the deck is connected to a Mixing Console which is set up for band and PA work, then its a different story.

If its a Console, use the XLR out and connect to the transmitter pack via XLR. Reciever plugs into the mic in of my MX500 direct.

Another alternative if you dont have an extra cable or if you have a smaller input on your cam (this is what i do with my EW100 and DVX) is to get an adapter and connect it to the Monitor output from the console which is usually a 3/4 headfone socket. The Senn is smaller so this is where the adapter comes in. Thisis then plugged to the traansmitter. The Reciever carries the feed via XLR cable direct to the DVX

I then do a sound check when people are eating.


" The reception I did last week had dual RCA line outs, is this typical? "
See above... reception venbues will always change.. the best way IMO without the need to get too involved in the sound desk config, is to set up a the mic and receiver with a piece of black tape.. basically piggy backing the main PA Mic.
Or if the speeaches are on a podium, i plant the mic.

I usually check the setup prior to attempting any PA recordings.
Another trick which i forgot to mention (and the most dangerous) is to plant a mic near (about 5 to 10 metres) from a speaker.


"Second what inputs will the Sennheiser EW100 wireless transmitters take? "

From what ive tried, the mini plugs which came with the unit or an XLR input are the only ones that work...

Ive tested it with various output signals and sources and for some reason i cant even run a mini Y cable (RCA to mini plug) into it... which pissed me off to no end.. as most DJ decks have a record out which is perfect for this.

"I assume it can take mic and line level inputs, but can it take any other type of output from a soundboard and if so what will they be labeled?"

It can take any input signal so long as (for some strange reason) your using the original cables... i dunno, im still going right into this and im sure some peopel have had some luck...

Ive usually jsut used my line adapter and the line cable (Not XLR)directly from the Consoles Monitor output (as most have an independant and adjustable gain control) which teh venue dont use and they usually dont mind when i mess with it.
this is also good as the DJ plays backing music you can keep the feed going and you can pick up everythign (even his mistakes).
Now another good thing for this is not jsut the speeches, u can keep the feed going (albeit mono) for the dancing...

Most consoles also use groups and sends if theyre using outboard effects gear.. again that depends on the venue...
try to avoid using groups as usually the Mixer is configed as one group

-Heres an example

GROUP 1 (ie Band) = ch 1,2,3,4, for 4 person live band
GROUP 2 (ie Dj) = COULD BE group included with G1 + DJ's 2 channels ch5 & 6
GROUP 3 (Venue Microphones config).. usually one or two indvidual channel, but that again depends if the mics are fed thru the DJ console or thru the Console directly....

It goes a little deeper than that, but thats a basic run down on group outputs.. Might help, might not, depends on what you want to record...

And it can get even more techical but that should give an idea...

Like i said, connecting to the monitor output should be the best solution as youre not affecting the actual sound which the guests are hearing. It also mixes all your channels and groups and what YOU hear is what the guests hear.. the only difference is that you dont get the room ambience which can (IMO) be a good thing sometimes (especially with clapping, and laughing and Working with Dolby Audio)

Which comes to another subject..

Personally i set ch1 to recieve feed from the Mixer/Console via EW100. this usually ends up being DJ Music and Mics only.
BUT
Channel 2 is STILL recording off cam <MC100>... this picks up the ambience of the room

i then process the audio alot mroe than jsut recording, but i'll leave it at that for now.

its gettin late...

oh forgot to mention, turn ON the ALC on the DVX (if u got one), as it works VERY differently to the AGC of the MX500, which is what i was using as reference

"Ive usually jsut used my line adapter and the line cable (Not XLR)directly from the Consoles Monitor output (as most have an independant and adjustable gain control) which teh venue dont use and they usually dont mind when i mess with it.
this is also good as the DJ plays backing music you can keep the feed going and you can pick up everythign (even his mistakes)."


That was another option on the sound board that I saw last weekend - a 1/4in "monitor" output. I was nervous about that since I don't know what kind of voltage that is and I know the mic and line voltages are pretty low. So that should work if I use the Senn. original cables with a 1/4in adapter, eh? Thanks for the lengthy reply Peter!

I have this same problem with distorted audio captured with the M66 and Sony PD 150 at a recent wedding reception. I used to use the onboard mic and never had problems with distortion. I was wondering if there is any way that this audio can be cleaned up in post to make it a bit more acceptable. I have mucked around with most of the filters in Sound Forge but with little success. I get the feeling there is not much that can be achieved with a distorted digital sound but please feel free to prove me wrong!


Mark Sudfelt

>>"Ive usually jsut used my line adapter and the line cable (Not XLR)directly from the Consoles Monitor output (as most have an independant and adjustable gain control) which the venue dont use and they usually dont mind when i mess with it.<<

What maybe true for one situation may NOT be true for another.
Yes, if nothing is plugged into a venue's mixer's AUX out or MON out, then
you can probably plug in and put a mix together, BUT I would not
count on it. May places are using the AUX outs for sending signal to
things like effects such as reverbs or delays. Others use them as sends
to stage monitors, other room speakers, or even recording devices.

My advice is to never mess with someone's mixer without asking.
Yes, you can try to apologize later and beg forgiveness, but
if it were my mixer, you'd be done. Venue owners and managers
who don't know anything about audio will FREAK if you mess with
their system, especially when you don't ask. You have to convince
them that you will NOT mess anything up and return it all to
it's previous condition. They really worry that it will cost THEM money
to fix what *was working fine* before you got there.

The general rule of thumb for mixer connectors and their signal output levels are:

RCA: -10dBu line level (mono)

1/4" phone: Can be either -10dBu line level unbalanced or +4dBu line level. (Mono)

1/4" TRS (tip-ring-sleeve) Generally +4dBu balanced line level.(usually mono)

XLR: +4dBu balanced line level.(Mono)

1/8" stereo mini: -10dBu line level (2 channel/stereo)

Also, if your recorded audio is distorted, there is nothing you can do that will
make it sound good after the fact. Get a good pair of headphones like
Sony 7506 and always monitor your audio so you don't catch
the distortion blues.

Obviously before you connect ANYTHING to ANYTHING you would seek permission.

its only professional (and common) courtesy if you intend on using someone elses equipment for your own gain.

I wouldnt expect anyone here to just walk up to a mixer and mess with the config.... I think we all know better than that.

When i mentioned that "they dont mind when i mess with it", its is usually due to the fact that i have previously asked them if that connection is being used for any particular reason.

Most likely it isnt, and so they dont have a problem when i plug in.

I thought asking permission was obvious enough and didnt need to be mentioned.

In the game we're in, we cant afford to NOT ask permission...

On this thread I've been talking about having only a 20dB pad to go from +4dBu to mic level (MIC ATT).... THIS IS A MISTAKE !!!

I've discovered later that the max level allowed on the mic input with the MIC ATT turned on is -35dBu so you need a 40dB pad externally.

Using only a 20dB would lead you to very bad distortions !!!

Dany