With the 35mm adapter, manual focus is important. When you have the adapter on, and your prime lens isn't focus, the HV20 will hunt. So in the middle of a rack focus, if you happen to leave IAF on, it will start searching. Its all workable, but in configuration I shoot the HV20 (upside down), the LCD is on other side of camera, and it gets real confusing--- of course so is focus wheel on HV20.... An independent focus wheel, even the tiny one on the HV20 is better for those purposes.

Don't get me wrong, you can switch to manual focus. It's just that you have to use the joystick to adjust the focus instead of having the little wheel there.

i hope you can fix the shutter speed on theseYes, just like all other consumer Canon camcorders, there is a Tv (shutter priority) mode plus Exposure lock, so yes you can set a specific shutter speed. Works just like the HV20 and HV30 in this regard.

Thinking about it, that might even be better in terms of adapter, if you can lock it in manual, set it, and forget it, you don't have issue of unintentional bump of the roller...

The dial was nice on the HV20/30 because you can adjust focus and not bump around the camcorder.

With the joystick controlling focus, I imagine that unless the camera is locked down on a tripod, if you'll transfer the pushing of the joystick to the image? Also how fine of adjustments can you make vs the dial on the HV20/30?

I wonder if you can control focus with the supplied remote?
Bob C

i hope you can fix the shutter speed on these

John:

With HV20, in "TV" mode you can set shutter speed. Then turn on exposure and adjust other variables by slider. Unfortunately Camera chooses priority over aperature or gain, but users have been trying to lock out gain using various tricks.

Cine mode is worse in that you have no direct control of either aperature or shutter speed, but there are tricks there too....

I am assuming these new cameras along with HV30 are set up the same.

I wonder if you can control focus with the supplied remote?Rec / pause, photo and zoom: yes. Focus: no.

How big of a difference is the 1920x1080 (HF10) vs. the 1440x1080 (HG10)? I got the HG10 a week or so ago and could still return it if necessary. My real question is, how is the 1440x1080 that the HG10 outputs manipulated to look good on my 16x9 screen? Is 1440x1080 harder to edit than 1920x1080 b/c the software needs to do various aspect ratio conversions? For example if I want to convert to a 720x480i MPEG-2 file is it harder or easier to go from a 1440x1080 source vs. 1 1920x1080 source?

TIA

I wouldn't return it- there's probably a negligible difference if any....I believe some HD codecs also upscale the 1440 footage up to 1920 anyway.
I think the real question is do these newer cameras improve on the already good quality of the HG10.

Some pictures and a short video of the camera from CES http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/08/video-canons-vixia-hf10-16gb-dual-flash-camcorder-hands-on/

Do these not have a standard viewfinder -- just the larger LCD screen?

That's right, Paul. Just the flip-out LCD only. No viewfinder in the traditional sense.

Has anyone heard or seen if these will have zebras like the HV20?

That's right, Paul. Just the flip-out LCD only. No viewfinder in the traditional sense.

Wow, just can't live without a viewfinder here in the desert sun, even the tiny one one the HV20 is useable (and I don't need reading glasses with the viewfinder.) Guess I'm sticking with the HV20 for another year...

John F
LV, NV

I saw HF10 has 2 SD slots on a clip shot on CES.
I am not sure about that, is that possible?

I saw HF10 has 2 SD slots on a clip shot on CES.
I am not sure about that, is that possible?Each of these new Canon flash-based camcorders (three models in the FS series, two models in the HF series) have *one* card slot. Attached is a photo of the HF10 card slot (click to see it big). Hope this helps,

Are there any specific requirements for the SD cards for use in the HF10/100?

I emailed Canon support and got a non-specific answer -- "SD or SDHC memory cards may be used in the HF10."

The specific answer is SDHC only. I tried a Sandisk 2GB Ultra II SD card in an HF10 yesterday and the camcorder would not recognize it. It must be an SDHC Class 4 or Class 6 card... see attached pic... a Class 2 card will not be fast enough.

Each of these new Canon flash-based camcorders (three models in the FS series, two models in the HF series) have *one* card slot. Attached is a photo of the HF10 card slot (click to see it big). Hope this helps,

Well.. That is good enough, thanks!

I would perfer the HF100, cause the Transcend 8 GB class6 SDHC would only cost less than 45 USD in China, and by paying around 100 USD you can get a 16 GB SDHC card.

It is a little shame that canon did not put a double SD slot in their flash memory camcorder,but I assume some of the manufacters will bring us multi memory slots camcorder in the future.

Some new hands-on HF10 photos here: http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/browseimages.php?c=52

Hey Chris,

Does this thing have Zebras like the HV20?

Don't know for sure, Paul, but I'll find out tomorrow.

Thanks Chris!
Can't wait for your update and review.

Sorry for the delay Paul but Canon USA has confirmed for me that the VIXIA HF series camcorders do *not* have zebras. And that's a drag.

There should be a law that all but the cheapest cams have:

* Manual control of exposure, shutter, iris and gain
* 24p and 30p. 60p for the overachievers
* Focus ring
* External mic input and manual gain control
* Quick access of all manual features

Some of the cams are oh, so close. But none of the high-end consumer cams at CES had it all...

There should be a law that all but the cheapest cams have:

* Manual control of exposure, shutter, iris and gain
* 24p and 30p. 60p for the overachievers
* Focus ring
* External mic input and manual gain control
* Quick access of all manual features

Some of the cams are oh, so close. But none of the high-end consumer cams at CES had it all...

Hear, hear! A camcorder buyer bill of rights, as it were. I'll sign that petition.

What a contrast from some other technologies, such as those used in the home. Many technical advancements get written into building codes as mandatory. For instance, if you remodel an old bathroom, you'll be required to install a ground-fault interrupter, a single-handle temperature-controlled shower valve, and a 1.6 gallon (soon to be 1.3 gallon) toilet.

I guess we're lucky that electronic products are not so heavily regulated, because advancements would probably come slower. But it still puzzles me why camcorder manufacturers tend to move in packs, as far as the features they offer (and often in the direction of 'dumbing down'). Is price competition really so severe that adding a $25 feature to distinguish one's product from the others will cost too much in market share?

Or to express the paradox in a different way, why do TV/DVD remotes have so many function buttons that most owners never learn to use them all ... yet we don't get a similar proliferation of functional controls in camcorders?

That stinks....I was hoping that this would be a tapeless HV20!

I guess we're lucky that electronic products are not so heavily regulated, because advancements would probably come slower...I don't really want camcorders to be regulated. I just wish that manufactures would add the features to their top consumer models that would make them worthy of being top consumer models.

That stinks....I was hoping that this would be a tapeless HV20!

I agree -- very disappointing. I'll probably go for the HV30 -- maybe even an HV20 on closeout. I'm really tired of tape!

The rep at CES mentioned that HV20 prices could be aggressive as they close out inventory. If you don't need 30p or the black paint job, a closeout HV20 could be sweet...

Only one question, when are these things going to hit the street? I am trading in my HV20 for sure, simply copying the video files for editing vs. going through this whole capture/split/inverse telecine would be awesome.

My guess is the video quality will be on par with the HV20, the reason being the HV20 is 1440 but compressed at MPG2, which looks better than MPG4, and the HF10 will be true 1920, you can't really compare bitrates on these cameras because the MPG4 algorithm blows the MPG2 one away, the HF10 could actually have better image quality than the HV20, even with the lesser bitrate. And the raw files from the camera will be oh so small, and natively progressive, man I can't wait :D

Those of your who think the camera will internally upconvert from 1440 are crazy, why on earth would they do that when all canon cameras like this are already processing and outputting 1920 via HDMI, it was only the HDV spec that was holding them to 1440.

The 12x zoom is nice and the smaller size will be awesome, I think Canon will have an even bigger success on their hands with this than the HV20.

when are these things going to hit the street? Available in late March... maybe sooner.

We definitely need to wait until the first comparison shots between HV30 and HF10 / 100 are available. Die sharpness of the HG10 was obviously worse than those of the HV20.

There were also reports, that the difference became even bigger, when motion came into play. Don't get me wrong - the image quality of the HG10 is not bad at all. I am also wondering where to store the data during a long journey or to archiv? Sure - hard drives are cheap these days. However, if you want to be on the safe side, you need to make backups - you are pretty fast going to have a nice set of harddrives on your desk.

For these reasons I will probably go for the HV30. At least if the comparision shots still see the AVCHD cams in behind.

Regards, Oliver

Yeah backups is about the only reason that tape is useful anymore, but it is such a pain capturing and dealing with them that I will not miss them. I plan on simply buying as many 8 or 16GB SD cards as needed when on shoots, then backing up to laptop or pc when I get home. 8GB class 6 cards are now 30 bucks at newegg, by the time the camera is available they will be even cheaper. Also flash format is so stable that making backups is much less of a concern than with a HD, one little wrong jolt and you can whipe an entire HD, whereas with flash you can throw them out the window and they will still work, and you can have a lot of them like tapes which is safer having your footage on several cards.

James, (and to other as well), do you think SD can, eventually, be used as an archival medium? Perhaps in time a 16gb SD or 8gb will just be U$5-10, would they keep in storage so that after 10, 20, or 30 years, they will still be readable?

The reason I ask is that SD/CF, etc are non-linear or direct access. It's easier to read and go forward or backward quickly. It's easier to transfer them to a computer too, no need for complicated, expensive, or maybe later outmoded devices. And can you imagine too, SD cards archival that is not heavy, not occupying too much as space as tapes?! And I can buy a cheap fireproof safe to keep them for fireproofing! Can't do that with tapes unless I buy lots of them small fireproof safes/boxes. And it's easier to create backups too! Hard to create a 2ndary off-site backup with tapes as the transfer itself is 1-1. With SD, it's minutes or it's as fast as your HD, or writer (and SD of course).

What do you all think?

This is not a trick question, BTW! I really want to hear what you folks think of this. Can we be looking at a better way to archive all these memories?

...do you think SD can, eventually, be used as an archival medium? Perhaps in time a 16gb SD or 8gb will just be U$5-10, would they keep in storage so that after 10, 20, or 30 years, they will still be readable?

Yes, it is possible the cost can and will come down enough to justify it as a possible archival medium.
Whether or not that will be tempting enough to consider over disk/disc storage remains questionable, for most people anyways.
I know the solid-state storage solutions are more resilient comparatively speaking to disk/disc. And as a result is said to have a much longer shelf-life for retrieval of data many years later.

SanDisk is reportedly working on Write-Once Memory cards that will cost less than 10 dollars a piece. (http://www.engadget.com/2007/11/20/1gb-write-once-sandisk-memory-cards-to-cost-5-99/)
This is interesting news for people looking for SD-based archival solutions.
However, the question remains, will it be developed simply as a low-capacity data storage unit, or will it/can it evolve beyond that to compete with disk/disk storage?

If it becomes a marketing campaign that plays between the user's needs and wants, then disk/disc storage will likely still remain the preferred solution considering it's very easy to appeal to consumers wants over needs, and with regard to storage (like megapixels for cameras), most consumers always want more more more, all else be damned.

When Solid-State memory is widely adapted, i.e. implemented into more computers, servers, laptops, etc. as long as capacity and demand grow, you'll see a variety of solid-state based memory card and card devices that will continue to push prices very low, assuming markets (which haven't been in the best of health lately) allow it.

I am already using 16GB flash for my important (not media) files backup. My 7 year old CF card still has files on it and is working fine. I would guess that if you simply stored flash in an ideal environment it would last hundreds if not thousands of years. I couldn't find any specific info on this subject. The main degredation occures not from storing it, but from reading from or writing to it. When it is stored the charges in the memory will slowly propogate and lose their values, I would think you could measure this and predict how long it should last, but I haven't seen anything where anyone has done this.

Looks like flash is water proof as well.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3939333.stm

Not only is it possible Jacob, it WILL happen, its only a matter of time. Flash is doubling every year (faster than Moore's Law), they already have 32GB CF cards, so in 5 years you will be able to buy a 1TB CF card, my guess is you will probably be able to buy one before that. In another 10 years, 16TB flash drives, of course by then we will probably have exabyte disk drives, but could you even use that much memory? If you had a 1 exabyte drive, you could store 31 years of uncompressed Quad HD (4096×2160 60fps) video!

didn't some software dude say something about never needing more than 256K of memory or something like that... where is that guy?!?! <wink>

My smallest flash drive is larger than my first hard drive... and fits in my pocket, my largest barely holds 1 hour of video, please deliver 1TB ASAP...

I am already using 16GB flash for my important (not media) files backup. My 7 year old CF card still has files on it and is working fine. I would guess that if you simply stored flash in an ideal environment it would last hundreds if not thousands of years. I couldn't find any specific info on this subject. The main degredation occures not from storing it, but from reading from or writing to it. When it is stored the charges in the memory will slowly propogate and lose their values, I would think you could measure this and predict how long it should last, but I haven't seen anything where anyone has done this.



I'm thinking blu ray is a better option. Flash memory is volatile memory meaning it's susceptible to everything from static discharge to electromagnetic pulse. CF is a very good implementation with recessed pins etc but I'm not sure I'd be trusting anything archival to it, no matter how cheap per gigabyte it gets.

Original Japanese:
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20080206/zooma344.htm

English Translated:
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fav%2Fdocs%2F20080206%2Fzooma344.htm

Something to keep in mind is that the 149MB file has a bit rate of around 15.5Mbps which is actually a bit less than the HG10’s average so basically the raw footage of the HF10 should look slightly better than that sample. All the other samples are native.