I hope you don’t mind educating me on the basics of image resolutions, but I didn’t see anything that addressed my question on the various boards. I know that Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are still battling it out, but I’d still like to take a look at this format.

Since the Canon XH-A1 shoots in 1080 24f format, does this equate to a 24p in regards to burning the video to a Blu-Ray DVD? I’ve heard of people playing their HDV videos on standard DVDs and being able to play them in their 1080i DVD players or even Blu-Ray players since the player is able to recognize the MPEG-2 file format . So, using a Blu-Ray burner to burn video on a Blu-Ray disc would allow one to get the optimum 1080p image on their HD-TV. Back to my original question, does the XH-A1 record in such a way (1080 24f) that it can be burned to a Blu-Ray disc as 1080p, or will it be 1080i (defeating the purpose of the Blu-Ray burner). Also, is the fact that the Canon shoots in 1440x1080 instead of 1920x1080 have any effect of the image being able to be burned to a Blu-ray disc at 1080p?

Sorry if I’m getting this all confused, I would appreciate if someone could iron this all out for me.

Thanks,

Spiro.

It depends. You should be able to play the native m2t 1440 on the PS3 from a USB drive formatted FAT32, maybe even from a disk if you have the right firmware version. But good luck getting it to play on anything else. And good luck getting it authored onto a BD-R/RE without re-encoding it. And good luck finding a compliant Blu-Ray player that will play BD-R/RE. It is possible to be successful, but impossible to have playback compatibility across the spectrum of Blu-Ray platforms with BD-R/RE.

The HD DVD workflow is infinitely more simple to get the native 1440 m2t authored without re-encoding. And easy to have 5.1 audio as well. The Canon 24F is taylor made for HD DVD. It's true 24 progressive with 3:2 pulldown flags embedded. It will playback perfectly from a Toshiba HD DVD player. Some models offer 1080p24 progressive playback. The advantage Blu-Ray has is the storage capacity on the disk. HD DVD as a general matter limits you to what you can put on a low cost DVD9, about 43-44 minutes.

Tom,

Thanks for the response. I think I may still be a little confused on this one, and I think I may not have been as detailed in my question I should have been. I'm not sure if maybe you interpreted my first post as meaning that I wanted to take the raw footage from the XH-A1 (I think you called them .m2t files) and burning them diretly onto a Blu-Ray disk to pla via Blu-Ray players.

What I meant to say (in more detail) is that if we take the 1440x1080 (24f) output from the XH-A1 and transfer it to the PC via Firewire cable, run it through Cineform HDV, into VEGAS Pro 8 for editing, and then into a program like HD-DVD-It for DVD authoring, would it be possible to burn (author with menus, buttons, etc) to a Blue Ray DVD and have it display playing through Blue-Ray players as 1080p? I believe you mentioned that the 24f on the XH-A1 was in fact a progressive mode, so that it would be displayed as 1080p when burned to Blu-Ray?

Sorry for any confusion.

Thanks,

Spiro.

No confusion here. It can playback in Canon 24F in 24p mode on Blu-Ray with menus, buttons. You author in BDMV mode.

But can the particular Blu-Ray player in question play writable Blu-Ray disks at all? Not all of them will. That's the catch!

If you have a player that will play writable BD-R/RE media, then that's great! If you intend to distribute your collaboration on writable Blu-Ray media to others, it's going to be hit or miss.

Just to chime in...you might just stick with the Blu-ray format and not the HD-DVD since, I believe the HD-DVD's days are now pretty much numbered.

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssConsumerGoodsAndRetailNews/idUST20151820080108

Cary, Blu-Ray's days are numbered too, optical disk formats are not the future. That said, I would agree that studio support is dead however players will be dual format, meaning there will be a playback device available, those are not going away.

So "sticking with Blu-Ray" (and I do have it) isn't much of anything you can "stick" with at this point, until they make compatibility with writable media a priority. Yes, I can playback .ts on my PS3, and that's probably the most compatible Blu-Ray device option out there due to the sheer numbers of Sony Playstations. I think for many small collaborations, it will make more sense to put 2gb on a disk or flash stick than burn a $15-20 Blu-Ray optical disk that won't play on the majority of the standalone Blu-Ray players anyway.

It's true 24 progressive with 3:2 pulldown flags embedded.

Sorry Tom I just want to clarify that. 24F is laid to tape as 24 independent frames with no pulldown. The A1 only uses pulldown in the SD modes not HD.

Yes Noel, it is laid to tape as 24 independent frames, but repeat flags are embedded. That's what I meant by pulldown. The mpeg editor can choose to ignore them.

... other than PS3.

Check this list:

http://forums.support.roxio.com/index.php?showtopic=20850

Also I agree blu-ray is way ahead of HD-DVD. Just look at the options we have for blu-ray disc burners and authoring software.

Although I can't answer the original 1080i question.

Leo, when you say you agree blu-ray is way ahead of HD-DVD, are you authoring with HD-DVD yourself?

It is much easier, cheaper and faster! And the collaboration will play on every HD DVD player. It's a good link you posted to the Roxio forums on burning Blu-Ray BDMV with DVDit. But it just confirms what I said, and it confirms what the forum moderator said.

BDMV on BD-R/RE is a nacsent thing right now. BDMV on BD-R is an optional part of the BD specification. I believe it will be more widely supported in the future as things shake out, until then such discs are really only good if you know for sure where they are being played. Great for tradeshows, lobby video, dailies, personal collections - as long as you are not passing around a disc and hoping it will have wide playback capability.

Yes Noel, it is laid to tape as 24 independent frames, but repeat flags are embedded. That's what I meant by pulldown. The mpeg editor can choose to ignore them.

Not in HD. SD only. There are no flags needed as all thats recorded is 24 individual frames. The flag process only relates to SD on the Canon A1/G1/XLH1.

Yeah, looking at that Roxio forum link is pretty depressing. Compatibility seemed like it was: yes, yes under certain conditions, no, maybe, sometimes, etc.. It looks like it will be a real back and forth between players having more universal acceptablility of burned Blu-ray disks and burners being updated to keep up with them. By the time it all works out Blu-Ray will probably be giving way to internet accessible content (movies, etc.) direct to your TV (which I believe is what Tom was getting at in his previous post).

So, in lieu of burning my edited 1080p 24f footage from the Canon XH-A1 to a Blu-Ray disc, would I be able to take that footage and burn it to a standard DVD as 1080i and be able to play it back on all standard DVD players that can upconvert to 1080i and have them display on HD TVs successfully? Or would I still be running into certain compatibility issues with certain DVD players? I guess my real question is what is the best way to get the highest possible quality out of the XH-A1 and be able to burn that HD video to a DVD (that you can sell to the general public) that will display most successfully and with the highest quality on most (if not all) of the DVD players out there? Sorry for the basic question as I'm new to this, but I'd like to see if I should go ahead and dump my Sony Blu-Ray burner while I can and still get good $$ for it and just pick up a standard DVD burner. Thanks.

Spiro,
The situation is equally bleak for HD DVD, just for different reasons. It was the far more user friendly format, but it's going to die without studio support.

If your collaboration could justify it, pressed recordings on Blu-Ray would be best for now, achieving compatibility with the bigger audience, in the small fish bowl.

Blu-ray burners are awesome for archiving and personal playback of BDMV, just not distribution.

You are right though. Both formats are destined to extinction or immensely satisfying niche status.

If there was any confusion, you would not be able to display native 1080 resolution on just any upscaling DVD player. It will have to be Blu-Ray or Toshiba's HD DVD (tm) format.

Understood. Thanks, Tom. So, in order to take advantage of the full native 1080 resolution of the XH-A1 for selling product, it is best to edit the project (Vegas Pro, etc) and then send in the final product to a mastering house or duplication house for proper pressing of a Hi Def DVD (playable in Blu-Ray or HD-DVD)? This would be taking the optimum quality that the camera produces (1080/24f , 30i, 60i) and producing a disc that most/all consumers would be able to use. I hope I’ve got that right.

Any ideas on who the better production houses are out there? I’m sure there are many of them, but I wasn’t sure if there were one or two that really stood out for quality and price.

Spiro,
For Blu-Ray a pressing house I don't know. For HD DVD, http://www.createspace.com/Products/HDDVDOnDemand.jsp has an interesting concept for creating video on demand. Again, the problem for HD DVD unless something changes soon, is it looks like it's going to stall due to the studios switching support.

But if you're collaboration is for profit, I don't see how you can ignore std-def DVD sales, because that's where the volume is. If it is for network distribution, DiscoveryHD for example, you would be supplying it to them on tape anyway, HDCAM, DVCAM etc. (Not HDV).

Edit: here's your blu-ray replication link... http://www.createspace.com/Products/Replication.jsp

Tom,

So, if we go towards Standard Def DVDs, since that is where most of the consumer purchases remain, is the only real benefit to using the XH-A1 that I'm getting a camera that will shoot in 16:9 widescreen format (so that the image fills up most peoples newer wide-screen TVs)? I’m sure the camera has loads of additional features on it, and has stunning picture, but it seems as if the 1080 capability is a bit limited when looking at real world consumer use.

Or, am I getting this wrong? IS it possible to put higher resolution than standard Res 480 on a standard DVD for distribution purposes? Can we put a 1080i quality video on the DVD (in order to take full advantage of the XH-A1s capabilities) and have it play through the DVD players that can up-convert to that resolution (in order to play on High Def widescreen TVs)? Or will we just be burning in Standar Def and the image will be stretched on widescreen TVs? I think you may have already answered this, so I hope I’m not re-treading old ground here.

Or will we just be burning in Standar Def and the image will be stretched on widescreen TVs? I think you may have already answered this, so I hope I’m not re-treading old ground here.

Unfortunately, it will just be burning a standard definition image for a widescreen TV, although it will not appear stretched because the aspect ratio will be correct.

Distributing a true, 1080 disk is a proposition of creating disks on separate formats, one to target the Blu-Ray machines, and one to target the Toshiba HD DVD (tm) machines. And nothing is wrong with that approach unless you are doing it for profit and ignoring the larger 97% market for standard definition 480 DVDs, some of them being played back upsampled to 1080i for playback on widescreen TVs using upconverting std definition dvd players masquerading as real HD.

But 480p is such a shame from this cam. Shoot in 1080, it's not your fault that not everyone can enjoy it.

It is possible to burn 1080 collaborations on inexpensive, regular ole dvd media that plays in true 1080 hi definition on blu-ray and HD DVD (tm) players, but only if you target the format. There is no universal format, and 480 dvd upscaled by std def dvd players that call themselves hi def, or even "HD-DVD" is not the same. Note the use of the hyphen. The Toshiba true hi definition player 1080 player is called "HD DVD" no hyphen. The distinction is important.

One year further down the line, do the same views still exist regarding Blu-ray and compatibility issues?