<<<-- Originally posted by Brian Dickman : go find Jay Rose's feature article from DV mag -->>>

Thanks a lot for that link Brian, fascinating article that I hadn't stumbled across before!

Have fun with that 880 Peter. Those things rock. I wish they had more XLR inputs, but hey, I'm not complaining too much. My 1680 has been a great friend for the past several years... :)

Yeah can't wait. :) Unfortunately this model does not have XLR inputs, only balanced 1/4" ones, but adapters are not terribly expensive, and I don't think this should significantly affect sound quality, do you?

Yeah, you're right. But I guess they'd sound about the same as long as you use balanced cables, which do make a difference. Some adaptors can be found cheap, but may make your audio sound cheap as well, but ymmv.

Sorry that this has become a thread in audio engineering, but it's interesting. :)

My understanding is that all XLR cables are capable of carrying a balanced signal.

I also thought that a balanced 1/4"-connector cable is identical to an unbalanced stereo 1/4" cable.

Am I right or missing something?

Thanks a lot.

I think you're right, but I'm not certain. I know a balanced cable has the TRS (tip, ring, sleeve) and a stereo 1/4" connector, so I guess that would essentially be a stereo cable.

For some reason, I thought unbalanced XLR cables existed, but that could be incorrect.

Right now, I have a home made XLR adapter for my GL 2. It technically works just fine. However, it is a hassle. There are many chords involved and it is quite cumbersome while filming; especially for handheld shots.


Now, is it worth it to buy the Canon XLR adapter for around $170? Is there a cheaper adapter/solution?

Will the canon adapter make it a lot easier to film, meaning, will the number of and amount of wire be reduced drastically?


Thank you...

You should also consider the BeachTek DXA-4P (http://www.beachtek.com/dxa4p.html) XLR adapter. It's become a bit of a standard.

In addition to Beachtek, Studio One and Sign Video also offer similar adapters. Ads are in Videomaker, etc.

Each has its advantages and disadvantages,

I used the second wiring diagram on this web page (http://www.rcrowley.com/CamAdapt.htm) to convert a spare XLR cable into an XLR->1/8" adaptor for my GL2. It works great with my Azden 1X.

The one drawback it has, though, is that the traditional XLR connector points back from the mic, making use of the top-handle buttons a bit of a challenge. If I get a chance, I'd probably re-do this cable with right-angle connectors for both the camera and mic ends.

Have fun.

We have an article about the MA-100 here on the site (http://www.dvinfo.net/canon/articles/article4.php) if you
are looking for some more information on it.

I am now in the market for an XLR adapter for my GL2.
I really like the look of the Canon MA-300, but it seems to get mixed reviews for some reason (what are those reasons?? I can't seem to find them)

Is a beachtek unit like the DXA-4P better than the MA-300?
I really like the idea of not having to run a cable to the microphone jack.

Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks.

I own both. go with the beachtek for several reasons:

-accepts line level as well as mic level signals.
-routes single audio feed to both channels
-leaves the intelligent shoe available for VL3, as an example.
-perfectly balanced wieght distribution for tripod mounting.
-cables don't hang down from above, but rather from below
-has individual pots for signal control that are easier to adjust than those on the camera in a hurry.

however, if you are simply wanting to mount a mic to the camera the ma300 works fine.

be aware that i dock my camera often to a tripod.

I agree with Hank,
-the Beachtek is better, especially with it being underneath the camera.
External cables running into the top of any camera is not a good idea...
The only facility you lose from Canon's own connector is the BNC video socket, but I just use a short av cable with a RCA to BNC adapter at the end - no problemo.

Robin

Is anybody using the Beachtek DXA-6 or DXA-8 with the GL2?

How well does it fit on the camera?

The reason I ask is because I actually own a beachtek adapter, but it is for the sony TRV line and it functions fine with the GL2, but the tripod mounting is so far back that the whole adapter sits so far forward underneath the camera that I can't hardly adjust anything.

I was looking at the DXA-6 & 8 and they seem to have the mounting bolt in the same location as the Sony models, so I am assuming they don't fit the GL2 very good.

That is why Beach makes several models, each is fitted with a top plate that has shifted mounting holes to better fit other cams.

Also consider the SignVideo XLR Pro, it's what I opted to choose over the Beach as it offered 2 line in's and not just 1. The other advantage that I found with the Sign was keeping the XLR in's on the right and not the left. I typically only use 1 XLR input (my boom mic) and I"m able to socket that unit in the rear position making it possible for my hand to comfortably in the strap and the XLR is not obtrusive.

The need to have 2 XLR based sources in at the same time however forced me to order 2 XLR cables with Right Angle Male connectors which I found a custom shop (AVCABLE.Com - Jim Woodier) that custom built my cables for about 20 bucks each.

I've toyed with the idea of getting the MA300, I think that I even shopped them on Ebay for about 150 and still said, no thanks. I have more control with the XLR-Pro, the MA might be a sexier and cleaner install however the flexibility of the XLR beats that hands down.

Hope this helps a little...

Which is recommended? Basically I need better quality audio, so I don't have to worry about poor audio transitions from on-board-mic static and such. Does Canon's hot-shoe mic do the trick, or does one have to purchase the XLR adapter to get high quality sound?

If the XLR adapter is recommended, what sort of microphone package would I need to take advantage of it?

I believe this belongs in the GL2 forum as opposed to the audio forum, because it's dealing with accessories specifically for the GL2, but if mods think I'd get a better response in that forum, feel free to move it.

What do I need to use XLR mics on the GL2? Will the MA-100 work for this purpose?

Thanks.

For the GL2 you will need the MA-300, or one of the Beachtek adapters.

The MA-100 is for the XL1(s)

Yeah...I have an MA100 so I thought I could use that somehow.
My real question is... does the signal use any amplfication like the MA 100 provides or is it mic-input so that all I need is a simple XLR to mini adaptor?

Thanks. Obvioulsy I'm no sound recordist.

I don't know about the specifications of the MA-300 (and MA-100) so I'll leave that to someone else.

But with the MA-300 you only have the volume controls of your GL2 to play with.
The Beachtek adaptors will give you more options. (and some of them provides phantom power too)

An XLR to mini adaptor will work with any battery powered mic that puts out a reasonably strong signal. Depending on the senstivity of the mic and the impedance of the mic compared to that of the camera, you may not be able to get the recording levels as high as you would prefer.

Make sure you get an adaptor that is properly wired for XLR mono to unbalanced stereo mini, or else you'll only be able to record to one channel.

I made my own dual-XLR to mini cable (one mic to each input channel). For the money (or lack thereof), it works great for non-phantom mics or (with proper attenuation) line-level mixer feeds.

Do you have a specific mic/source in mind?

Yes, I wanted to boom with my AT 835B Shotgun. It is a powered mic.

I was curious if it's better to use as XLR adaptor to mini stereo or mono? Is it better to record the XLR mono signal on the two channels or one?

Another thought...is it possible to use the boom on one channel and the camera mic on the second channel to later mix in for ambient??

Never claimed to be a sound recordist but I may have to do this for a short scene next week. Many thanks.

One channel should be fine. You can send it to both left and right once you get it into your editor. (In Premiere, it's called "Duplicate Left" or "Duplicate Right," depending on which you had it plugged into.)

Unfortunately, you can not use the internal mic and an external one at the same time. If you want ambient sound, you'll have to set up a second mic just for that purpose and run it into the other channel. With this setup, you should have the ability to mix them in post.

Be careful when shopping for "stereo" cables with one XLR jack. Just make sure it's for a balanced XLR and not a stereo XLR. There have been previous posts here concerning those.

I'll look through my adaptors and see what I may need. Thanks for the good advice.

Jim,

IMO the BeachTek DXA-4P (http://www.beachtek.com/dxa4p.html) is the best value. It goes for about $150-160 new and you can get used ones anywhere from $80-$120. Shows up on eBay regularly. I actually bought mine used for $55. :-) Click the link for more details. It bolts to the bottom of the GL2 and becomes "like one unit". The BeachTek bottom then can be mounted to a standard tripod.

BeachTek is recommended by many DVInfo.net members. It's rugged, gives you both line and mic input, and both 1/8-in minijack and XLR inputs. I've used one for a year now and never had a problem. Don't know of anyone that ever had a problem.

With regards to recording from one mic to both L & R channels -- I highly recommend it:

(1) If you only record to one channel it can make for an unbalance problem with the GL2 audio circuit.
(2) By recording both channels, you can set the level on one channel based on expected sounds, and then set the other channel about 7-10 db lower. This gives you some pad in case of an unexpected loud sound (laughing, sneezing, yelling, etc.). You can then select the best audio track in post that you want to use.

I just got this converter for my sennheiser me/66 and GL2.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=154878&is=REG
Its balanced xlr to stereo mini and seems to deliver a high quality. Of course I use battery power for my mic. Phantom power does deliver a bit higher quality but the difference is miniscule. If you can use battery power and don't have the $150 budget for the beachtek or MA-300, I reccomend this.

A quick question about the beachtek adapter. To record to both channels do you simply flip the switch to stereo then make the level adjustments with the DXA-4P? If it is more complicated than this could you possibly explain Pete?

thanx

That's correct except you actually may need to set the switch to "mono" to get a single mono mic routed to both channels. I seem to recall that the labeling of the correct choice of switch position is counter-intuitive.

Start with the GL2's own level controls set at mid range and the Beachtek's at maximum. If you need to increase the signal, use the GL2 controls. If you need to reduce the signal use the Beachtek controls, because the alternative of turning the GL2's level controls way down to get an acceptable recording level will set you up for clipping of the audio at the input. The GL2's level meters monitor recording level, not input level.

Tague,

To record the signal from one mic to both channels:

Plug the mic into the BeachTek LEFT input
Set the BeachTek to MONO
Set the BeachTek level control for BOTH Left and Right to maximum
Using camera controls, adjust the L channel level for optimum recording of your subject. Generally, you want to adjust the GL2 level so that the max level is at about -12db.
Then set the R channel level lower by about 10 db. This will allow the R channel to properly record unexpected loud sounds that may be clipped by the L channel.
The best audio can then be selected during the editing process.


I have always adjusted the input level using the GL2 audio level controls with the BeachTek set to maximum. To the best of my knowledge, the GL2 audio level controls adjust the INPUT signal that will be recorded.

Here's a quote from the BeachTek DXA-4 manual:
For the best signal to noise performance, the levels controls on the DXA-4 should normally be set as high as possible. If necessary, adjust either the left or right volume control to balance both inputs so they are of equal amplitude. Then set the desired recording level with the manual level control on the camcorder. Use this same control (not the adapter controls) to ride the levels during recording.
Fred, I'm not sure I understand your comment:
If you need to reduce the signal use the Beachtek controls, because the alternative of turning the GL2's level controls way down to get an acceptable recording level will set you up for clipping of the audio at the input. The GL2's level meters monitor recording level, not input level.
As long as you adjust the GL2 recording level (using the GL2 controls) so that the signal does not exceed 0db, there should be no clipping, correct? As I stated above, I usually adjust the level so that it does not exceed -12db while testing the mic with the expected audio. If you have a very hot mic and you cannot reduce the level to -12db using the GL2 controls, then you could adjust using the BeachTek controls. The GL2 also has a mic attenuator that you can set ON using the menus when you have a very hot signal. But I've never used it.

Best Regards,
Pete

Pete,

I think Fred was getting at the fact that it is possible to have a signal so loud that the GL2's preamps distort. When the signal enters the camera, it goes to the preamps, and THEN to the input controls. Turning it down just reduces the level of the already-clipped signal. It may look OK on the VU meters, but it's still distorting. I made this mistake myself... once.

Turning the signal down at the Beachtek box or with the attenuator would keep it in range for the preamps.

The best method to avoid this problem (in my opinion) is to always monitor via headphones at the camera. If it's clipping, you'll hear it.

Since the GL2 does not come with built-in XLR ports, you can drop an extra $200 or so on the MA-300 accessory shoe. But what about having a cable that converts 1/8" to XLR? Would it make a significant difference in quality? I found http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&kw=SECL500&is=REG&Q=&O=productlist&sku=233892 to be an alternative, but I'm not sure if it should be considered.

That kind of adapter will make you lose the noise protection provided by the balanced signal on the XLR cable. It simply takes the 2 parts of the balanced signals and sends them to the left and right channels. A proper adapter will subtract the two signals, eliminating the noise, before sending it into your camera.

Not much point using XLR if you don't use the differential signal...

The point in using XLR is that you already have the equipment. Yes, it will be noisier, but the average to above-average person will never notice. I mean, most people's home systems are so sh*tty that they wouldn't know the difference between an XLR and the 1/8 minijack.

Even if you're going to film,. theaters are so unpleasant these days, with badly focused film and cell phones going off left and right, that a tiny hiss that's below the aural comprehension of most humans is a nonstarter.

I use a simple Radio Shack adapter to convert XLR to 14 inch and then to mini for my GL2.

DJ

Use of balanced audio is of value mainly with long mic cables, say more than 20', or if you are shooting in electrically noisy environments. Electically noisy means lots of stray electrical and changing magnetic fields - like a place filled with complex active wiring; e.g., a TV studio.

For most home video where the mic is fairly close to the camcorder the benefit is likely negligible and a simple adapter (such as Radio Shack mentiond above) that just grounds one side of the balanced line making it unbalanced will work OK.

Note that connecting one side of the balanced line to the right channel input and the other to the left channel input, as will happen with the B&H link adapter, will result in audio in the channels that is 180 degrees out of phase. If combined (as in the linear track of a mono VCR), the audio cancels and you get near silence. If played ona good stereo system you get a strange sound image.

By the way there are alternatives to the MA300 in about the same price range, including XLR adapteers from Sign Video, Studio 1, and Beachtek. Each has its advantages and disadvantages, as are discussed in other threads here.

I'm a relatively new owner of a GL2.

I bought the XLR accessory shoe (the MA-300), so I could connect the output of a mixer board to the audio XLR inputs hoping to get good quaility audio.

As soon as I connect a standard XLR cable from the output of this mixer board to the input of the MA-300, I get a pretty annoying hum. (The mixer board has all it's outputs turned all the way down, and no inputs are connected to the mixer board.) I tried another mixer board and the hum is less, but I have the feeling that neither mixer board would have any hum if hooked up to other equipment.

I'm wondering if my MA-300 is defective or if the GL2 in general just has very noisy audio input. Is there is some trick to fix this? (Or do I need to find another mixer board?)

Does anyone know a good way to get the output of a mixer board into the audio input of the camera without any extra noise?!

Are you using AC power to the camera when this happens? Using battery power lessens the chances of a "ground loop." Unfortunately the MA300 doesn't has a ground lift switch like it's aftermarket competitors (beachtek, sign video, studio 1), which can also help.

The MA300 (line the MA100 and MA200) uses electronics to do the balanced-to-unbalanced conversion, not transformers, so yo do not get the same degree of isolation from the source. If using battery does not help, you may find it helpful to use a direct box to isolate the camcorder from the mixer board.

I use a Mackie 1202 mixer and and use an RCA (out of the Mackie) to 3.5 (into the GL2) cable to run directly into the camera. I really get excellent sound with this arrangement and no noise. I would be inclined to use the MA-300 only with an XLR microphone plugged directly into it.

Thanks!!!

Using battery power instead of AC power, solved the problem of noise XLR inputs. Does sure sound like it was a "ground loop."

However using battery power in practice isn't practical.

I tried again with a borrowed and much more expensive mixer board -- one I'm suspecting isolates it's output from AC power much better, and the noise is gone. I guess I'll use this one until my friend wants his expensive mixer board back.

Cheap mixer board: Shure SCM268 (about $300)
Expensive mixer board: Shure FP32 (I think over $1,000)

Try an audio isolation transformers with ground lift; e.g.,

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/288129-REG/ART_SPLITCOM_SPLITCOM_Passive_Microphone_Splitter.html