Thank you Bill.
My current PP are below how do they compare to your current ones?

MATRIX ON
SELECT HISAT
LEVEL 0
PHASE -5
R-G +75
R-B 0
G-R -18
G-B -32
B-R -27
B-G +13
OFFSET WHITE OFF
DETAIL ON
GAMMA LEVEL 0
GAMMA SELECT CINE 1/3/4
BLACK -4
BLACK GAMMA 0
SKIN TONE DETAIL OFF
LOW KEY SAT 0

Mark, how did you come across these settings?

G'day Steven,
Having gone through every post on this thread, I wrote down
every change that Bill made.
I think that these were the last he posted.
Unless somebody or he says otherwise.

I am beginning to believe that picture profiles made for one camera will not necessarily translate to the same look or output on another camera. I am still working on profiles for my EX3 using a DSC chart and then working with real life scenes. It certainly looks like my camera requires different settings than Bill has used to set his to proper colour reproduction.

I am using Premiere Pro CS4 to get its On Location but Adobe has made changes to the latest version in their great wisdom that removes the ability to scale vector waveforms. Without this ability to scale, it becomes much more difficult to adjust the colour matrix to match correct reproduction using the DSC charts. It is not impossible though.

I am noticing that different gammas have different apparent detail and colour mapping at zeroed settings.

This will take some time to fully understand all the interactions but I will post my profiles this next week as I have them developed so far.

Hello, I am in the process of producing a film that is intended to be screened digitally in a local cinema/theatre and so I have been in search for the best picture profile for me, which in effect is one that will give me as much of a filmic look as possible in camera yet at the same time give me the maximum head room for colour manipulation in post. (The intended look for the end piece will be similar to Bourne Ultimatum/88 Minutes)

So in my search I have had meetings with several successful DOP's and camera operators of whom all gave me similar advice, which was; if you are shooting on HD give yourself as much room as possible for post production, so unlike many picture profiles that have become popular it could limit the grading process if the blacks are already recorded as dark as they can be before crushing etc.

This leads me on to ask the advice of anyone that has had the opportunity to experiment with different picture profiles and see the results on a big screen. What profile has given you the most headroom in post and how has the footage held up to vigorous color grading? Also I notice there isn’t much talk of the matrix settings in comparison to the amount of posts on this subject and so I would like to ask peoples thoughts on HISAT VS CINEMA and why people would choose one other the other when shooting drama based work. On initial inspection it would seem CINEMA would give me the most headroom in post but there must be a trade off between using this and HISAT seeing as it would appear to be so un-common with ex1 users.

Would love to hear your thoughts/examples?

What profile has given you the most headroom in post and how has the footage held up to vigorous color grading?

Chances are excellent the factory settings are your best bet. These are the closest settings to "neutral" (across the board) that you'll find.

My experience is that as long as I shoot single-camera, my various PP's are useful and can produce nice results.

But when I was doing a 3 EX1 project lately, we decided to go as neutral as possible - PP off and manually preset WB on all 3 cameras.

The result being identical picture from all 3, easy to inter-cut in Vegas and with plenty of latitude preserved.

Also I notice there isn’t much talk of the matrix settings in comparison to the amount of posts on this subject and so I would like to ask peoples thoughts on HISAT VS CINEMA and why people would choose one other the other when shooting drama based work. On initial inspection it would seem CINEMA would give me the most headroom in post but there must be a trade off between using this and HISAT seeing as it would appear to be so un-common with ex1 users.

Would love to hear your thoughts/examples?

The reason most of us won't have too much to say about matrix is because it's subjective, there's no right or wrong if it gives you the look you're after, and to say that one is more correct than the other can sound disrespectful to those who use it to good effect for their own interpretations of art, or science.

For me, the hisat matrix doesn't work, but again it's just my opinion. The problem I have with it is that it seems oversaturated in the shadow areas, or with lower light levels. My preference is Standard +4. But it's just my opinion, and contrary to the majority around here, I use Std3 gamma. It's quite likely that hisat matrix works better with one of the cine gamma curves, so my observations could be skewed.

Opinions toward the detail "On" setting run about 30 to 1 against, or so it seems. I know I'm walking on thin ice, but I am wearing a lanyard.

My gift of sharing and caring, if you dare to experiment, is a well tested picture profile for the detail "On" setting that vanquishes the highly objectionable outline-halos of the default setting, while imparting a low noise organic texture with finely resolved detail that holds up to scrutiny.

Setting: On
Level : +1
Frequency: +65
Crispening: 0
H/V Ratio: 0
White Limiter: +75
Black Limiter: +75
V DTL Creation: Y
Knee APT Level: 0

Explanation:

- Black and white halos are the ringing, or overshooting at the transition edge of high contrast objects.

- The Frequency +65 setting narrows the width of a halo'd outline.
- The Black Limiter +75 setting clips the black outline at a higher IRE, where it's more like a dark gray.
- The White Limiter +75 setting clips the the white outline at a lower IRE, where it's more like a light gray.

I am beginning to believe that picture profiles made for one camera will not necessarily translate to the same look or output on another camera. I am still working on profiles for my EX3 using a DSC chart and then working with real life scenes. It certainly looks like my camera requires different settings than Bill has used to set his to proper colour reproduction.


Chances are excellent the factory settings are your best bet. These are the closest settings to "neutral" (across the board) that you'll find.


I don't understand this surely the cameras are made from the same bits? Surely testing is done before leaving the factory to make sure a standard is met? Surely one persons settings would be close if not the same as anothers? If the Cameras out of the box settings are all equal as Piotr seems to say then why wouldn't colour profiles be too? Or are we saying everyones colour profile settings are what you get is a lucky dip?

Surely having colours accurately recorded and a film curve added to stop blown out highlights enables more information to be captured, than out of the box standard settings?

I don't understand this surely the cameras are made from the same bits?

Just the nature of the beast. No two cameras ever made are "exactly" alike. Too many variables from the first element of the lens to the sensor at the back end.

As I said in an earlier post, that is why we have video engineers, so they can "match" the cameras prior o the shoot. In film, it's done at the lab with what's called a "color timer."

As I said in an earlier post, that is why we have video engineers, so they can "match" the cameras prior o the shoot.

Yes video engineers match cameras of different makes but not the same model? Just make sure all the settings are the same should be sufficient.

Yes video engineers match cameras of different makes but not the same model? Just make sure all the settings are the same should be sufficient.

Unfortunately, this is not true. In engineering parlance, variations are called "manufacturing tolerances". Manufacturers establish tolerances, usually looser than what the designers wanted. The main reason is money. The tighter the manufacturing acceptance tolerance, the more expensive it is to produce. For a company like Sony, that is so profit driven, if they can squeek it out the door, they will. The EX1 is a perfect example of a consumer product that relies on a hi-end reputation(ie cinealta) to sell a moderate to low end product. It's ALL about marketting. Just turn on the TV. I'm sure that a $100k camera gets a little more final inspect and adjustment than a $6k camera.

Sony produces these things in a mass production assembly line. They spend very little on final QA. The best thing you could do for your cam is send it to a factory service center where it will receive some personal attention from a tech. Given the workload Sony techs are probably having with firmware upgrades, this is probably not a good time for some "custom" service from Sony Repair centers.

On a good note, at least manufacturers like Sony now sell their products with a range of adjustments that allows a knowledgable owner to perform his/her own final QA and adjustment. Unfortunately, things like optical alignment are still out of scope for Joe Sixpack.

Yes video engineers match cameras of different makes but not the same model? Just make sure all the settings are the same should be sufficient.

Nope, that's not the way it works.

I've watched a number of times as video engineers have "matched" multiple cameras of the same make and model. As I said above, that's the nature of the beast.

Edit: Just like Bill points point out!

Hey all you EX3 shooters out there

just a word to the wise
I personally don´t recommend using any EX1 pp´s for the EX3, after testing Bill Ravens´ settings for true colour (EX1) in my EX3, I noticed that the red spectrum was very flat and had moved to orange, this however was after Bill revised his first pp to accomodate the fact that many of you said that the reds were a bit too much as apposed to the other colours.

The EX3 test in the October/November issue of the ´VIDEOAKTIV DIGITAL`which is an European magazine which I buy (VIDEOAKTIV - Home (http://www.videoaktiv.de)) stated that sony should frame the results for the colour tests for the EX3, which kind of leads me to believe that we are getting very close to true colour without tweaking at all

I am not testing with any official charts, just with a colour circle from a photography book I have and real scenes outdoors in all possible conditions.

I did check the results in the Vectorscope in my Avid Liquid, which confirmed what the viewfinder in the EX3 had led me to believe.

Now while I think that a true colour PP is definately a good thing, I also think that PP´s should be adjusted continually to achieve the desired effect for the shot or shoot, it is all about creativity and personal prefference.

Not sure who it was in this thread who stated that there is no "holy grail" as far as picture profiles are concerned, but you got my vote.
Every one of us is shooting in different lighting conditions and we should react according to the situation at hand.

I personally shoot mostly extreme sports and events which pretty much always happen outdoors and am currently testing certain parameters for Sunshine; Backlight; Rain/cloudy; snow/sunny combination and snow/cloudy combinations.

For live band shoots, I will be looking into an indoor stage, mixed light setting over the next few months, if anyone has any good advise for that, I´d be pleased to hear it
(EX3 users please).

I have had my EX3 for about 4 weeks now and am very happy with the results so far, I have also done lots of work with the EX1 this year, although I wasn´t too sure about the handling at first, I said right then and there that I couldn´t wait to see what sony would do with the next modell, which I ended up buying just as soon as I could.
I have worked with the EX1 on 2 separate rallye´s Erzberg Hare Scramble/RodeoExtremely hot and dusty) and the Red Bull Romaniacs (everything from hot and dusty to mega rainy and cold) (Home (http://www.redbullromaniacs.com)), as well as the whole of last winter doing snow sports events(down to -25°c), these cameras are as tough as nails and are just soo much camera for the money spent(thanks SONY for a great cam.).
Just don´t throw them down rock faces, they don´t like that at all. I watched one go sailing down on the first day of shooting the Romaniacs this year it ended up in 3 pieces....

Bill Ravens, could you please get hold of an EX3 and let us know what your testing equipment thinks about the colours (o;

I have been working with the EX1 since June when our church purchased one for the purpose of internet use. At first I thought the picture provided by the factory was pretty good until I noticed that the greys and blacks had a lot of red in them under our Parr 46 and 54 tungsten stage lights. Last saturday I spent about two hours tweeking the settings in the PP to see what I could do. Here is what I came up with.

Matrix = Cinema
Level -40
Phase +20
RG -30
RB +30
GR +75
GB -60
BR +99
BG +80

White = 2900
Skin tone = Off
Black -20
Black Gamma -30
Low Key Sat -30


If annyone would like to see my results go to.... Welcome to Christian Worship Center (http://www.cwczillah.org)

Push Media then...
Push Video in the white letters above the box.

sermon title to the right of the screen "Baggage"

Hit F11 key to enlarg picture.

George,

Here is a sample shot with that RC1 profile you posted.

It was shot through the not-so-clean window of my office which overlooks the lounge area outside the building.

What is the white ballance setting for that shot Perrone?


Tom

I have been working with the EX1 since June when our church purchased one for the purpose of internet use. At first I thought the picture provided by the factory was pretty good until I noticed that the greys and blacks had a lot of red in them under our Parr 46 and 54 tungsten stage lights. Last saturday I spent about two hours tweeking the settings in the PP to see what I could do. Here is what I came up with.

Matrix = Cinema
Level -40
Phase +20
RG -30
RB +30
GR +75
GB -60
BR +99
BG +80

White = 2900
Skin tone = Off
Black -20
Black Gamma -30
Low Key Sat -30


If annyone would like to see my results go to.... Welcome to Christian Worship Center (http://www.cwczillah.org)

Push Media then...
Push Video in the white letters above the box.

sermon title to the right of the screen "Baggage"

Hit F11 key to enlarg picture.



Yeah I have also found that shooting with a lower white balance like 2900 produces cleaner blacks and avoid the IR problem. But it creates another problem which is skin tones changing towards magenta.

Good gracious. That was months ago and I certainly don't remember.

What is the white ballance setting for that shot Perrone?


Tom

Yeah I have also found that shooting with a lower white balance like 2900 produces cleaner blacks and avoid the IR problem. But it creates another problem which is skin tones changing towards magenta.

There is one more thing that I forgot on that list of settings. I put Gamma level at -40 and CIN setting to CIN2. This setting also really looks good under normal houshold tungsten lighting.
I was just checking it out today and I thought the colors in the house, walls, furniture and skin tones looked really good. I am talking about multibles of 60 WATT bulbs. With that low of WATTS you might want to set the CIN setting to CIN3.

By the way did you look at the video and what did you think of the picture coloring?

The EX1 is a perfect example of a consumer product that relies on a hi-end reputation(ie cinealta) to sell a moderate to low end product.

Sony produces these things in a mass production assembly line. They spend very little on final QA.

Bill, I thought the EX1s were off CineAlta assembly line in Atsugi?

Quote from a review:
"Moreover, this is the first palm-held camcorder to emerge from Sony’s Atsugi, Japan, factory, renowned for its Digital Betacam, HDCAM, HDW-F900, HDC-F950, and F23 lines. Previous Handycam-style camcorders have come from Sony’s factory at Shinagawa, Japan, creator of consumer and prosumer camcorders such as DSR-PD170s, HVR-A1Us, and HVR-Z1Us. As a result, present and future XDCAM EX camcorders will carry a CineAlta marque on the outside and Atsugi DNA on the inside."

Not that that necessarily means very much, but it ought to stand for something, right?

I am beginning to believe that picture profiles made for one camera will not necessarily translate to the same look or output on another camera. I am still working on profiles for my EX3 using a DSC chart and then working with real life scenes. It certainly looks like my camera requires different settings than Bill has used to set his to proper colour reproduction.

I am using Premiere Pro CS4 to get its On Location but Adobe has made changes to the latest version in their great wisdom that removes the ability to scale vector waveforms. Without this ability to scale, it becomes much more difficult to adjust the colour matrix to match correct reproduction using the DSC charts. It is not impossible though.

I am noticing that different gammas have different apparent detail and colour mapping at zeroed settings.

This will take some time to fully understand all the interactions but I will post my profiles this next week as I have them developed so far.

You also have to remember what the guy on the Vortex Video said (if you have the video)
concerning Picture Profiles. That they are based on personal prefrence. What looks good to one person may not look good to another unless there are truly difrences in each individual cammera manufactured.

Bill, I thought the EX1s were off CineAlta assembly line in Atsugi?
Not that that necessarily means very much, but it ought to stand for something, right?

why would you think that? history is full of poor products, sold under the reputation of better made designs, the BMW 325i. Porsche 914, and Ford Falcon all come to mind.

why would you think that? history is full of poor products, sold under the reputation of better made designs, the BMW 325i. Porsche 914, and Ford Falcon all come to mind.

Hey Bill, now you have offended me. Is my BMW 330i I'm so proud of in this category?

[kidding off]

:)

Hey Bill, I dunno. Misguided loyalty, I guess.
FWIW my own EX1, a late model example, arrived with nary a twitch - no vignetting, back focus, battery, etc issues, 1.11 installed, everything is working as advertised. So I for one don't think that my EX1 is akin to a Porsche 914 of the Sony line...

I received my EX 1 a week ago, just in time for filming a documentary that will start this month. I've been reading up on the PP's and -sometimes- what they're used for. I will start experimental shooting with some of your settings this week to look at the differences/my prefs.
We'll be shooting the doc in 'existing light', indoors and outdoors. Like many I like the hi-sat, 'punchy' look, shallow dof. Has anyone prepared a PP with this prefs in mind and care to share these settings? Perhaps 2 PP's, one for interiors and one for exteriors?

Jeroen

Jeroen
Congrats on your EX1!

I'd just use Bill Raven's setting or similar, and concentrate on getting the best exposed images you can - i.e. capture the maximum amount of digital data per image possible.

This means using your histogram, watching the areas of lighting, using a real exposure meter, perhaps using fill boards or butterfly scrims, etc, to control your contrast.

Don't worry about getting your final image on your camera.

Do the hi-sat look in post, it's much easier there.

The shallow DOF is to do with your lens being at a wider aperture, which means ND filters, or decreased shutter angles, or both.

And usually most people use a 35mm DOF adaptor such as a Brevis, Redrock or Letus and 35mm stills camera lenses to achieve that look, but it can be done on longer focal lengths without the adaptors.

Just make sure that you get the best exposure and latitude possible. Use Bill's settings (there's four variations) and check your histogram to see you're not losing any information (i.e. losing your highlights or lowlights by getting your exposure wrong, or by shooting an area that has too much contrast in it).

Worry about getting your pictures sharp and well composed. If you have a follow focus unit, practice with it.

Practice with your tripod and fluid head, get all those settings as you like it and don't forget to exercise the head just prior to each shot - i.e. rehearse your camera moves before you shoot, especially in colder countries. Your fluid gets cold and more viscous, the settings change with temperature.

Don't forget your 3x and 30 degree rules - if you want two shots of the same subject to cut together, you'll want to be either 3x zoomed in or out from your A shot to your B shot, or you'll need to be at least 30 degrees moved over one way or another from your previous camera position.

Plus, don't forget to shoot plenty of inserts and cutaways!

HTH
Cheers
C

Very nice post Chris with great information.

I received my EX 1 a week ago, just in time for filming a documentary that will start this month. I've been reading up on the PP's and -sometimes- what they're used for. I will start experimental shooting with some of your settings this week to look at the differences/my prefs.
We'll be shooting the doc in 'existing light', indoors and outdoors. Like many I like the hi-sat, 'punchy' look, shallow dof. Has anyone prepared a PP with this prefs in mind and care to share these settings? Perhaps 2 PP's, one for interiors and one for exteriors?

Jeroen

Hi Jeroen
If you are interested in an indoors preset I have one that works great for tungsten lighting. I think it works better like in a house under strong bulbs. I origanally set it up to work under Par Stage lights but I think I will have to do a little more work with those on this setting. Go back to page 25 and you will see the setting on a preveous post.
Also try it with difrent CIN settings to see what u like.

Good luck:

Thomas

Hi!

Hey guys...i belive that lots of You have canon a1 and also sony EX-1.Have You tried to color match them,or what is the good starting point to set up A1 & EX1 for multicam shoot

Best Regards

Raul

Thanks, Chris, that's more than I bargained for!

As far as doing the grading in post: I don't expect to have access to a pro colorist and am not proficient at grading myself.

As far as Bill's settings are concerned, hope you don't mind me asking: what page are the definitive settings at or do you have them? I had the impression they were constantly tweaked and I lost track of where he arrived at...

@Thomas: I'll give it a try-thanks!

Jeroen

I motivated myself to try the published true color preset published in this thread with an EX1 modified Letus Extreme and a Voigtlander f2 40mm prime lens.

I made an error and took a local whitebalance instead of going with a more normal daylight setting. One of the frames below is a grab from a shot done with a normal daylight preset.

There was also a piece of two f-stop neutral density filter gel in the path between the lens on front and the groundglass.

Frames are numbered :-

1 2
3 4

Frames 1, 2, 3, are local whitebalance to white card.

Frame 4 is daylight preset.

Frame 4 is most fathful to the look and colours at that time of the day which was evening just before sundown. It is not the sharpest shot. Focus with groundglass work must be meticulous, - no excuses for me.

I was also a little greedy with the relay wide-view and picked up an edge of the prism path through being zoomed back a fraction too far.

Here's a link to motion versions of those frame grabs :-

http://exposureroom.com/members/DARANGULAFILM.aspx/assets/d46dec40cffd4f7d839d6b3f40a2cadd/

Don't forget your 3x and 30 degree rules

Never heard of the 3x rule and quite frankly I can't see how that would avoid a jump cut. I mean, without moving the camera the minimum 30 degrees, using a focal length 3x longer will still jump. Am I missing something? Or do you mean using both together as in make sure to move the camera 30 degrees AND use a focal length 3x longer? If so, the 3x is not really necessary unless you off course need a closer shot. Maybe I'm still missing something.

Michael

If you're 3x out or in, then you're essentially cutting from a wide to a medium, or a medium to a close, etc. No need to move the camera, just change the focal length substantially.

When you're doing, say, a single camera interview headshot and your subject flubs a line, try it and see. Just immediately change the focal length to a medium shot (or a closeup if you were on medium) and keep the subject going. Or, alternatively, or go down to his/her hands, then come back up as they start talking again, again without cutting the camera.

Later, in post, you can then cut from the medium wide past the flubbed line to the closeup or out again (as if there were two cameras shooting the same subject, one wide, one close) whereas if you hadn't altered your focal length then you'd definitely be jumping between your two headshots.

Naturally, you're still going to have to make the subject's motions match (can't have a hand up cutting to a hand down, etc)., but if you can do that you can get away with it nearly every time.

In fact, it's probably the only way I know to tighten up an interview without cutting away and back.

In another situation, let's say you cut from a wide shot of a house to a tele shot of the front door of the same house, shot from the same angle, then to a closeup of the door handle as it turns, also shot from the same angle.

Do you call those cuts jump cuts? If so, then you're right, you should move the camera between them.

For me, they go by pretty easy, and I've cut lots of stuff that way without a murmur from anyone.

viz long shots of battle scenes, cut in to teles of people fighting, further in to bodies hitting the ground, etc., then back out again, all from the same angle... they seem to work fine too, in my book. In fact, I've cut scenes that way in order not to confuse basic screen direction (good guys moving left to right, bad guys right to left, etc).

YMMV, of course.
HTH
Cheers
Chris

Hi guys, Does anyone know any of Doug Jensen's picture profiles for ex1? I heard they are really good.

I was wondering if annyone knew for sure what some of the color symbols stand for on the ex1 in the pp settings? For instance: RG, RB, GR, GB, BR, BG.
The oporators manual does not tell what the anacronyms stand for and I have had no success finding any information on the web anywhere. Can anyone help me in this area?

Thomas

I was wondering if annyone knew for sure what some of the color symbols stand for on the ex1 in the pp settings? For instance: RG, RB, GR, GB, BR, BG.
The oporators manual does not tell what the anacronyms stand for and I have had no success finding any information on the web anywhere. Can anyone help me in this area?

Thomas

R=Red
G=Green
B=Blue

If you look at a vectorscope, you will understand that each combo represents an axis and these combos describe how to shift the image along those axis'.

An even better analogy is the "RGB cube" mapping. See here:

RGB color space - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGB_color_space)

I "believe" these are the settings for the EX1:

DOUG'S PRESET

MATRIX:

SETTING: ON
SELECT: HIGH SAT
LEVEL: 0
PHASE: 0
R-G: 0
R-B: 0
G-R: 0
G-B: 0
B-R: 0
B-G: 0

COLOR CORRECTION:

SETTING: OFF
AREA DETECTION
AREA INDICATION: OFF
TARGET PHASE: 130
TARGET WIDTH: 40
LEVEL: 0

WHITE:

OFFSET WHITE: OFF
OFFSET: 0
OFFSET: 0
OFFSET: 0
PRESET WHITE: 5600

DETAIL:

SETTING: ON
LEVEL: 0
FREQUENCY: 0
CRISPENING: 0
H/V RATIO: 0
WHITE LIMITER: 0
BLACK LIMITER: 0
V DTL CREATION: Y
KNEE APT LEVEL: 0

SKIN TONE DETAIL:

SETTING: OFF
LEVE: 0
AREA DETECTION
AREA INDICATION: OFF
SATURATION: 0
PHASE: 130
WIDTH: 40

KNEE:

NOTHING

GAMMA:

LEVEL: 0
SELECT: CINE4

BLACK: -3
BLACK GAMMA: -2
LOW KEY SAT: 0

Thanks! Appreciate it.

An even better analogy is the "RGB cube" mapping. See here:

RGB color space - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGB_color_space)

Thanks Piotr for the information. I thought it might be as simple as Red, Green, Blue but I wasnt sure if there might be more to it than that. Now I have a lot of information to absorb on the subject.


Thanks:

Thomas

I've got a Multicam shoot coming up with 2 EX3s and 1 Ex1, and need to figure out the best way to match the cameras. Its going to have to be done in post obviously, however i'd like to get the most out of the cameras as possible.

I like the latest True Colour Profiles from Bill, however i know they dont work very well when it comes to the EX3.

Heres the basic settings i was thinking..

Matrix ...............on
Select................hisat
Gamma Level.............. 0
Gamma Select.............CINE1, CINE3, CINE4 (3 Settings)
Black..........................-8
Black Gamma..............0

So very blank settings apart from a couple.

Im also going to be doing the Online Edit for the show, so will be matching the cameras colours in the final edit.

If anyone else has any suggestions when it comes to mixing the cameras colour wise please let me know.

I was wondering if annyone knew for sure what some of the color symbols stand for on the ex1 in the pp settings? For instance: RG, RB, GR, GB, BR, BG.
The oporators manual does not tell what the anacronyms stand for and I have had no success finding any information on the web anywhere. Can anyone help me in this area?

Thomas

Hello everyone (first post)
Thomas, R-G, R-B, G-R, G-B, B-R and B-G are difference signals between the respective primaries. Think of the R-Y B-Y chroma difference signals for an analogy.

The reasoning behind the linear matrix circuit comes from the fact that in the natural world each of the primaries does have some contamination from the other two (either positive or negative). So for things like skin tones or grass to look natural this contamination has to be simulated in camera. This happens after white balance but before gamma correction hence the word linear. So really your white balance isn't affected by Matrix settings or for that matter by any other PP setting save the White setting.

The "Level", "Phase" "R-G", "R-B", "G-R", "G-B", "B-R" and "B-G" settings all work together to determine the final colour of your pixel according to the following formulae:

R′=R+α(R−G)+β(R−B)

G′=G+γ(G−R)+δ(G−B)

B′=B+ε(B−R)+ζ(B−G)

where:

R, G and B are the respective signals before passing through the linear matrix circuit and R′, G′ and B′ are the respective signals after passing through the linear matrix circuit.

α, β, γ, δ, ε and ζ are the matrix coefficients defined as:

α(Greek letter alpha)=−0.59a−0.59b

β(Greek letter beta)=−0.11a+0.89b

γ(Greek letter gamma)=−0.3a+0.2831b

δ(Greek letter delta)=−0.11a−0.4731b

ε(Greek letter epsilon)=−0.3a−0.7b

ζ(Greek letter zeta)=−0.59a+0.59b

and:

“a” and “b” are control parameters for chroma (saturation) which you affect with "Level" and hue which you affect with "Phase" respectively.

My guess is you don't actually set the values of the two control parameters or the six coefficients but scale them.

As you can see it is not a very intuitive exercise. Having experimented on say, a pixel with red as the dominant signal, positive values of either R-G or R-B (the ones that affect the red signal) will make the red in that pixel more vibrant and negative values less so. If the pixel had green or blue as the dominant signal however, positive R-G or R-G values would make red less vibrant and as a consequence green or blue more vibrant and vice versa. One can also see that gray-scale values are unaffected because the difference signals cancel out.

This is from research and experimentation on my part, so don't take my word as gospel. The equations however are Sony's or whoever dreamed up the linear matrix circuit.

Omar

I think messing around with the matrix too much is not recommended. Sometimes you get a good look, but for only one situation.

The best settings to adjust are the detail, detail frequency, subtle gamma, black gamma and black level adjustments.

I always find that the blacks lack punch on Sony cameras, so that is always one area I look at for starters. It is possible to make a PP that works in the majority of situations, but it needs subtle and considered adjustment.

Certainly if you are looking at film style shooting you want to be looking at the detail and detail frequency settings.

Simon, do you have any suggestions for detail settings?
Pete

Simon, do you have any suggestions for detail settings?
Pete

OFF :)


Dennis

OFF :)


Dennis

lol...
very true.

The EX is the first camera under $10K that looks good without aritificial enhancement.(detail, sharpening..what ever you want to call it).

It's easy to be dismissive about in-camera sharpening. If all you are using it for is to increase the apparent resolution of an image, then sure, turn it off and leave it off.

I think that may be a little short sighted, though. The Detail settings control how the camera responds to fine details. I have been experimenting with different settings for Crispening, Frequency, and the other parts of the Detail set. I am very interested in how Simon is using the Detail settings to get the look he wants from the camera.

Pete

For a filmic look you can turn the detail off, but this doesn't help very much with the EX series because unlike cameras such as the F900 you cannot turn the detail off while leaving the Aperture correction on.

On most of Sony's full size cameras you can do this. Turning the detail off gets rid of edge enhancement across the board. But by tuning the Aperture (high frequency) detail you can get really fine adjustments that can mimic different film types much more closely.

This is not possible with the EX series of cameras though because they only have a broad detail adjustment with no separate Aperture Correction adjustment.

For this reason I would not recommend turning the detail totally off on the EX cameras. Instead I would suggest reducing the detail, for example to -20, and then adjusting the Frequency setting to, for example +40. The Frequency setting adjusts the coarseness, or width, of the edge enhancement. The higher the setting the finer and more subtle the effect is.

So it is possible to keep the edge enhancement but stop it from being intrusive. For documentary you may want slightly more enhancement than you would for a 'filmic' style. Turning the detail off can make things look a little too '8mm cine camera' to me.

One other tip I can give is that for low light shots with the gain kicked and shadow areas, you may want to experiment with the crispening function. This function is also useful when used in conjunction with the detail adjustment as it will not only allow you to fine tune the detail enhancement to avoid enhancing the noise, but it will also allow you to further fine tune the parts of the picture you would like enhanced of those that you do not.

Simon...

Many thanx for your explanation of how you use the DETAIL settings. I am off to experiment with your suggestions. Do you have an understanding of the KNEE APERTURE setting? Is this related to the APERTURE CORR on the F900?