You might try Veescope Live. http://www.dvdxdv.com/ I have tested the free demo and it seems to work as advertised.

If you have a Kona or similar capture device it will display whatever your device will capture from HD-SDI to composite plus Firewire and matches my hardware scopes.

Monitor and scope display has about a one second delay.

You might try Veescope Live. http://www.dvdxdv.com/ I have tested the free demo and it seems to work as advertised.

If you have a Kona or similar capture device it will display whatever your device will capture from HD-SDI to composite plus Firewire and matches my hardware scopes.

Monitor and scope display has about a one second delay.

Did you test it to be accurate with the EX1 also when using firewire or just SDI?

Did you test it to be accurate with the EX1 also when using firewire or just SDI?

HD-SDI, component and Firewire. All matched within readability of the screens. The screen is less sharp on Veescope.

HD-SDI, component and Firewire. All matched within readability of the screens. The screen is less sharp on Veescope.

I'm only interested in the scopes function as I can't always have hardware scopes out on the field. But if using firewire to connect to the laptop, I would think you would have to switch the EX1 to SQ ("HDV") mode in order to work with the firewire? In that case, if what you are shooting is HQ, will checking the scopes in SQ still give an accurate representation of your signal? The question goes for both Veescope Live and Onlocation by the way.
The problem with Veescope Live is that it is Mac only and my Laptop is a windows machine, so Onlocation may be the only option. I may have to buy Premiere just to get Onlocation. Or is there another option for the PC?
Just making sure before I buy anything. Thanks.

But if using firewire to connect to the laptop, I would think you would have to switch the EX1 to SQ ("HDV") mode in order to work with the firewire? In that case, if what you are shooting is HQ, will checking the scopes in SQ still give an accurate representation of your signal?

Michael, I also would love to hear feedback on your question as well...

FWIW...

HDRACK(which I assume is the same for Adobe's version), distinguishes REC601 from Rec709. Unlike Vegas, which never tells you WHAT it's reading, HDRACK will annunciate the color space it's reading. I would assume there's no difference in color space between SQ and HQ modes with the EX1. Simply a matter of higher bitrate doesn't mean a change to the color mapping.

Whether you like the results, or not, the color profile I posted here was done with HDRACK and the firewire connection in SQ mode. Applied to HQ modes yields the same results. Fairly convincing, altho' perhaps not conclusive, evidence that it's accurate enough.

FWIW...

HDRACK(which I assume is the same for Adobe's version), distinguishes REC601 from Rec709. Unlike Vegas, which never tells you WHAT it's reading, HDRACK will annunciate the color space it's reading. I would assume there's no difference in color space between SQ and HQ modes with the EX1. Simply a matter of higher bitrate doesn't mean a change to the color mapping.

Whether you like the results, or not, the color profile I posted here was done with HDRACK and the firewire connection in SQ mode. Applied to HQ modes yields the same results. Fairly convincing, altho' perhaps not conclusive, evidence that it's accurate enough.


This is somewhat good news then. So switch to SQ, check on DV Rack, switch back to HQ and record. Sounds like a worthy workaround to me.

What version of DV Rack did you use Bill, DV RACK HD 2.0? I hear CS3 has some improvements.

If only DV Rack was still available as a stand alone option.
Is there another option for the PC?
Thanks.

Bill,
Allow me to expand the question out of the EX1 slightly...

if using scopes with a downconverted SD signal for color checks, is there enough of a color space difference to warrant this as not a good idea if recording in an HD mode whether HDV or HQ, or would it be fairly accurate? (applying this question to the broader range of HD cams - like the XHA1 for example in addition to the EX1...)

Thanks,
Lonnie

I'm only interested in the scopes function as I can't always have hardware scopes out on the field. But if using firewire to connect to the laptop, I would think you would have to switch the EX1 to SQ ("HDV") mode in order to work with the firewire? In that case, if what you are shooting is HQ, will checking the scopes in SQ still give an accurate representation of your signal? The question goes for both Veescope Live and Onlocation by the way.
The problem with Veescope Live is that it is Mac only and my Laptop is a windows machine, so Onlocation may be the only option. I may have to buy Premiere just to get Onlocation. Or is there another option for the PC?
Just making sure before I buy anything. Thanks.

I have only tested with the free demo of Veescope.

Within the readability of the scope image on my Mac/Dell 30 - HD-SDI, firewire, component HD and composite SD all seemed to match the hardware scopes. Veescope seemed to adapt to the changing color space. All of the computer screen scopes I have seen or used make an image that is less sharp than hardware scopes. Comparing requires estimating whether the "center" of a small fuzzy blob is in the same spot as a sharp dot. If you really need to know within 1 IRE, buy hardware scopes.

After a brief scope test my 3 week old EX1 failed. The IS system went into uncontrolled vertical cycling. Sony tried a repair that did not work and has it back to try again. No word on when it might come back. I had the camera 3 weeks, Sony has had it for 6 weeks. So I can't recheck anything.

Answering Lonnie's question, the EX1 appears to correctly translate from 709 to 601 for an SD monitor feed. If the SD feed was correct on SD scopes, the HD signal was correct on HD scopes, until the camera blew up.

Sorry, I only got a couple of hours of scope testing and color calibration before the camera fell apart.

Here is a new PP matrix settings for you to try.

I have tried as much as possible for max saturation while centering the vector angles.

This was produced with the same technique as Bill used for his TC PPs - DSC Labs chart, color correct lighting, HD-SDI to hard and soft scopes, but I got a different set of numbers. These profiles look more balanced on my camera, they may look less so on yours.

I have called these Real Color 1 and Real Color 2. RC1 is very close to total saturation, with just a tiny bit of head room. RC2 is right on the mark for 50% bars, no head room at all. If you find you are sometimes clipping colors even with RC1, try setting Matrix Level to -10.

If you give these a try, let me know how they work for you.

Matrix ...............on
Select................hisat
Level..................RC1 0 / RC2 +10
Phase.................3
R-G...................72
R-B...................-5
G-R...................-1
G-B...................23
B-R...................13
B-G...................-29

I have attached a jpg of RC2 on FCP scopes. FCP live scopes show the HD signal as SD colors pace, but this also looks correct on other hard and soft scopes.

The yellow circle marks 63%, the correct max for Red and Green on 75% scope and 50% bars, when viewed as NTSC color space.

I would have posted these a month and a half ago, but my camera failed while I was creating these profiles and I just got it back from Sony. I needed at least a brief chance to test them in the real world before posting.

Hey George - glad to hear your camera's back! Any idea what it was?

George.
Which gamma did you use with these settings ?
Thanks.
Paul.

And Black and Black Gamma?

Carroll Lam

Real Color Matrix Profile - This is only a Matrix profile for balanced saturated color. Set everything else where you wish for the scene you are shooting.

Gamma: Std 1-4 and Cine 1-4 all maintain the vector axis and gain is barely changed after the exposure is corrected for the gamma change.

Black gamma also has minimum or no change, after setting exposure. Same with knee.

Low Key Sat WILL change the vectors (it IS a saturation control) but mostly above or below + or - 10. Using + or - 99 will make some very weird colors.

I have attached a jpg of the Sony standard matrix for comparison. Notice that it is very low saturation and the yellow, green and blue vectors do not align with their vector targets. Just like pictures taken with the standard profile look on a calibrated production monitor.

Hey George - glad to here your camera's back! Any idea what it was?

Ronn - This time they put on an actual NEW lens. I've only tested it for a couple of hours, but everything seems to be OK.

btw - let me know how the RC matrix settings look on your camera.

George,

Here is a sample shot with that RC1 profile you posted.

It was shot through the not-so-clean window of my office which overlooks the lounge area outside the building.

Hey George - here's a 30 second clip I shot yesterday of my fountain, using a variant of your RC settings. I actually split the difference between the two (Level was 5 vs 0 or 10) and detail off. 720P24 with 1/48 shutter and polarizer.

http://www.box.net/shared/dlka9t48os

So what is the best recipe for shooting in heavy sunlight?

I found the TC2 profile excellent yesterday in mid-afternoon sun, but fairly unusable indoors without a lot of light. The RC1 profile does better in low light and really looks nice.

Perrone - Thanks for the still. Too bad there wasn't more color range in you subject. Let us see what some full color range subjects look like with RC1 on your camera.

Ronn - Great clip. Nice range of colors in the subject and moving in to frame to show skin tone is a plus. Very saturated without any strange colors that I saw. Should look great from 0 to -15. I had not thought about it before, but I will try a Tru-Pol on the charts to see if that upsets the balance or levels. Polarizers might want a profile of their own.

RC1 is about the max saturation I would be brave enough to use on a real shoot, and then for clients that insist on no post grading. It provides a bit of head space on saturation, but exposure or white balance errors could still give chroma clipping.

RC2 is to show where the top is, DSC 50% color chart taken all of the way to 50% on scopes. Pretty much no chroma head space left.

Perrone - Thanks for the still. Too bad there wasn't more color range in you subject. Let us see what some full color range subjects look like with RC1 on your camera.

RC1 is about the max saturation I would be brave enough to use on a real shoot, and then for clients that insist on no post grading. It provides a bit of head space on saturation, but exposure or white balance errors could still give chroma clipping.



Yea, I'll provide something a bit better this coming week. It rained here today, so I couldn't really capture anything.

And I completely agree with you on RC1. I am probably going to shoot with it this week in an interview I have to do. We'll see how it works.

I had not thought about it before, but I will try a Tru-Pol on the charts to see if that upsets the balance or levels. Polarizers might want a profile of their own.
.

That was a Formatt 4x4 polarizer in mattebox. It shifts green on the EX1 when turned to minimum polarization but shows no shift at maximum. I haven't tried turning it around yet to see if that makes a difference. I also haven't tried a screw-in polarizer. Will be trying that this week.

That was a Formatt 4x4 polarizer in mattebox. It shifts green on the EX1 when turned to minimum polarization but shows no shift at maximum. I haven't tried turning it around yet to see if that makes a difference. I also haven't tried a screw-in polarizer. Will be trying that this week.

Tested the Schneider circular Tru-Pol. Rotation makes no measurable color shift. White balance shifts about 3% toward cyan when mounting the filter. Need to re-white when the filter goes on or off. Panning with the circular does not color shift.

Tested a Tiffen linear polarizer. 90 degree rotation gives a 30% shift magenta to green! Optimize the polarization, white balance and pan 90 degrees can give a 30% green shift. Not good. Mounting it backwards made no improvement.

Neither filter blocked the auto focus system.

It doesn't take scopes and test charts to see this color shift. Just watch on the LCD screen as you rotate the filter or make a long pan in sunlight. Maybe someone can test other brands of circular polarizers and post here.

FYI George - the Formatt definitely shifts magenta-to-green on the EX1 (reversing the filter side makes no difference) but causes no shift at all on my Z1U, nor on my Panasonic AJ-D200 DVC-Pro camera I tested today. The Tiffen screw-in 77mm Polarizer does not exhibit any shift at all on the EX1. I thought maybe it was a CMOS thing, so I tried it on my HD-1000 (which is CMOS) and no shift.

FYI George - the Formatt definitely shifts magenta-to-green on the EX1 (reversing the filter side makes no difference) but causes no shift at all on my Z1U, nor on my Panasonic AJ-D200 DVC-Pro camera I tested today. The Tiffen screw-in 77mm Polarizer does not exhibit any shift at all on the EX1. I thought maybe it was a CMOS thing, so I tried it on my HD-1000 (which is CMOS) and no shift.

Are either of these marked circular? I found the problem on linear, none on circular.

Both are linear.

Both are linear.

So your Tiffen linear screw-in and my Tiffen linear screw-in give opposite results. Hard to draw a useful conclusion from that data.

Clearly not an issue that can be fixed with picture profiles, although a profile that increases chroma levels will magnify color errors from any source.

Anyone using a polarizer that causes a color shift should not combine it with any settings to increase saturation.

Correction - my Tiffen screw-in is a circular. My mistake. It's not labeled as such on the filter, but I went to put it back in the box and saw it on the label.

In shooting our last video university segment on using filters I was surprised to see the EX1 do the green shift while rotating our 4x4 polarizer. We also saw a strong magenta shift when using an ND.9 and graduated ND.6. No other camera in our collection does this with these filters. Interesting.

I have the same issue when using a B&W circular polarizer and a B&W grad. ND.6

Is there any rule of thumbs for determining what would be the best picture profile for a sunset versus one for an early morning shooting, one whem shooting an acquarium through the glass etc..?

I've been loading Bill's PP TC2 into my EX3 manually. Haven't had time to shoot yet but hopefully shortly. My question is that when I examined the SUF files that are online here with the SUF file created by my EX3 after saving the profiles, they don't match at all. The codes are all different. I know I've got the correct settings based on the posts I've read here but I would expect at least some of the settings to be the same. Now a lot of them are 000001 which I would expect are the default settings. And the total number of entries matches. It's just that I would expect more of the settings to be the same.

So I'm leary of just loading the SUF as is into the EX3. Anyone else see this?

Rick, you're right, I would not try loading the EX1 SUF. You never know what may result from this.

I've just read this thread from cover to cover and was hoping someone could post the entire 6 profiles that is being discussed. I cannot load the .suf file because I'm using the EX 3. Alternatively if someone has loaded them into an EX 3, I would be greatful if they could post the EX 3 .suf file.

Right now, I have one profile and that is bills post #120 in this thread. What are the differences in the other? It's possible that this has been discussed but I just tried to absorb a lot of information.

EDIT: To clarify,I would like to know the settings listed on page 8 and any updates if possible. They were these from Bill:
pp1: Steve Thomas' PP
pp2: original TC1
pp3: TC2 Cine1
pp4: TC2 Cine3
pp5: TC2 Cine4
pp6:TC2

I too would love to get the .suf of these 6 profiles for the EX3. Can someone please post?

Gamma Level..............+5
Select.............CINE2


PERFECT!
No more problems with High Contrast situations.
Combined this setting with Georges PP (with Level=-10 and detail=off).

Looks great!

do the PP's for the EX1 work for the EX3 also? I have heard that they do not work the same on the different cameras. If so, does anyone have any PP's for the EX3. My camera does not seem to have any PP's included with the camera. Thanks.

Matty S

I have been following this thread for some time and I commend everyone involved... it is truly good stuff.

My question is: In order to do my own paint setting in picture profiles, do I need an HD monitor like the TV Logic which has waveform/vectorscope using camera bars as a reference, or should I plug into my computer monitor thru a device like the matrox mxo and use the appropriate chart from dsc labs?

What are the advantages of either... Am I missing something?

Thanks,

Greg

This thread is crazy long but I downloaded the setup.suf file on page 8 and tried to load it onto an SxS card (after renaming it).... and when I went to "recall" camera data it told me "NG" NO Data.

Anyone have this problem? Is there an updated file somewhere?

Thanks

Steve

Hi everyone, I've mentioned this briefly on another thread a while ago, but has any one else noticed that -3, 0 and 3 db all actually seem to be more than just hardware gain? If you set your picture profile to one that clips at less than 109%, of course no matter what you do to the exposure, the maximum white value you can get is constant. however this is not true if you change your gain value. i tried std and cine gammas and set them both with gamma/knee values that caused white to clip fairly low (around 80-90%) while in -3db gain. when switching to 0db gain, white clip increased, and at 3db white clip increased yet again, but past that (6db, 9db, 12db etc) the maximum white value stayed the same (still under 109%). this is a very odd behavior, it makes me think that maybe 3db is the normal sensitivity for the camera and 0db and -3db are both just implemented in software. this is especially interesting since it probably means that if you set up your picture profile in -3db mode and you set it all up so that white just clips at 109% to fully use all your dynamic range and all 8bits, if you set your camera to 0db or 3db in that same profile, youll actually be cropping off highlight information. does this make sense? anyone else have any insight into this? makes me think i should set up all my picture profiles with 3db on so i dont accidentally lose highlight info by changing gain values.

to see what im talking about, try setting any picture profile where white clips under 100% and look at the histogram while switching gain between -3, 0 , 3, 6 etc. its easiest to see if your picture profile has white clip under 100% even in 3db mode.

until now i have been testing picture profiles and setting some of my own up. today i was just setting up some picture profiles using cine gamma modes and found that i had to adjust gamma number value to make sure white was always clipping at 109% and using all 8bits. i was doing this in -3db mode which required lower gamma numbers to increase white clip value. i found that if i did it in -3db it would keep its white clip in 0db up as well but not the other way around. i found that doing this was giving me some less attractive highlights though. then it occurred to me i was clipping my highlights off. maybe we just shouldnt use -3 and 0 db or need to have special picture profiles for them? is it just me or is it really annoying that when you are in a cine gamma mode, turning up the gamma number doesnt actually increase gamma, but it does mess with where your whites clip? what the heck is it doing?

oh yeah a few other things. i like the "real color" preset i got from this thread, looks great except that skin tones look weird if they are over exposed. seems like the matrix is calibrated only for midtone values. ive been using picture profiles with black gamma at +99 all the time and i love it. it doesnt look washed out, after using it for a while anything else looks so high contrast. i did a shoot in direct sunlight and it was amazing, the latitude looked so great that it almost looked like people had fill lights on them and everything was beautifully exposed. it allowed me to reduce exposure to save highlights but skintones were all still so well exposed because the shadows were so stretched out. i did a really quick test of latitude a couple weeks ago and came up with around 11 stops! it was really quick (so take it with a grain of salt please) but it was similar to the test i did on my hv20 where i got 9 stops.

ok thats odd i tried to replicate the problem again of white level changing between 0db and 3db and it didnt happen. in one setting the level went up 1% but that is not significant. dunno why it was happening before, weird. maybe im going crazy. anyway it still happens for -3db but i already knew that.

Wow, I was using the default settings on my camera because I hadn't had time to mess with profiles yet. I finally watched the entire Vortex DVD and used the basic profile that he recommended and what a huge difference! The colors pop and the highlites hold much better... it's like I have a new camera! And to think I was actually impressed with the default look... ha! I also have the same setting with a little more bump in saturation... looks so sweet right out of the camera. I have Final Cut Studio but I haven't tried editing yet, I'm sure most of this stuff can be done in post but I'm not sure I'll have to do much with this footage.

I also punched in Bill R's profile... I like it but it's sorta red. I like warm/red but it seems a little much. I'm sure if it was tweaked a little to tone down the reddish hues it would be great as another option. I'm not sure yet how to turn down the reds.

I loved my EX1 as soon as I played with it right out of the box, and I just keep lovin' it more and more as time goes on!

What is the basic profile recommended on the Vortex DVD?

What's the Vortex DVD?

Here's a link to the Vortex Media "Mastering the Sony PMW-EX1" Vortex Media's - Mastering the PMW-EX1 Training DVD (http://www.vortexmedia.com/EX1DVD/EX1DVD.html)

I highly recommend it... it goes through pretty much everything you need to get your Sony EX1 up and running. I do MUCH better with visual learning than reading manuals.

I don't even know the Picture Profile details the video showed because I changed the settings while watching the video with my camera in hand. I just know it made a big difference in my footage, mostly with punchier colors and better highlite control. Even if I had written down the profile details (which I didn't), I'm not sure it would be right for me to share it since Vortex Media created a commercial DVD with this information.

I would just say that this DVD was excellent for someone like me who is relatively new to the whole serious video world. It's like the manual coming to life, and believe me, I need a lively manual to figure things out, ha! There are a couple other DVDs on the Sony EX1 that I haven't seen but I'd bet they're very helpful too.

Since I don't want to come across as promoting Vortex Media's DVD training over others, here's a link to two others, which they probably review picture profiles too (but I'm not 100% sure).

Call Box (http://www.callboxlive.com/store/sony-guidebook-p-39.html)

VASST : Inside the Sony XDCAM EX::Sony PMW-EX1 Training DVD (http://www.vasst.com/product.aspx?id=e5aa8309-4401-4b08-9ce6-27e4d912abaf)

Actually, I just went to the VASST site linked above and played the YouTube clip on the front page and it talks about picture profiles in the sample clip.

First blush inspection of the EX1 color balance showed weak green/cyan and a fairly narrow dynamic range. The histogram filled only about 3/4 of the x axis and tended to be on the underexposure side of things. Granted, I don't have a 3 color histogram, so, this is really an approximation. My goal was to increase the dynamic range, improve the exposure without blowing the hi-lites and muddying the shadows. I, also, wanted to bring up the weak green/cyan.

Anyone familiar with Paolo Ciccone's True Color calibration for the JVC HD100 knows the procedure...
JVC HD100 Calibration (http://www.paolociccone.com/hd100-calibration.html)

It would be great to have someone validate my results. I'll redo more fine tuning as I go on. For the time being, my latitude is increased above the factory settings, my saturation is more lifelike. The histogram now displays a range from near 0 to 100%. Peaks are well distributed over the range without favoring lows or hi's.



It would appear from my first attempt to check my EX3 that the EX3 might need much different values than the EX1 to correct things like you have done Bill. I used an X-Rite Color Checker chart and the vectorscope pattern looks way off in Adobe On Location. The chart I use is not the same as you used but it does give the indication that there are big differences. I have a DSC chart on the way and will report my results

Once I get this done I will be on the way to providing my own feedback on different picture profiles and I hope I can provide some more details on the inner workings for others.

Can somebody confirm that the profiles done by Bill Ravens have the
"Detail" switched to OFF.
Thanks

Mark...

As far as color goes, DETAIL doesn't matter. Use it at your discretion. The contemporary knowledge is that DETAIL ON/LEVEL 0 adds sharpening. DETAIL OFF and LEVEL-40 is approximately no sharpening.