hey Danny,
yeah, i'm unsure of the Gamma Level: is it -40 or 0?
Black: -12, -8, -4, -3

amongst others...

and more thing. how in the hell did Phil or Bill adjust the KNEE if the GAMMA was set to CINE1??? are they magicians or merlins????

The knee and black/gamma settings - those are all the "little differences" that drove me mad. I think Bill explains the black settings in the thread on Phil's site - just scroll down and he makes comments. I ended up with black -8, level 0, cine3, detail off

The knee and black/gamma settings - those are all the "little differences" that drove me mad. I think Bill explains the black settings in the thread on Phil's site - just scroll down and he makes comments. I ended up with black -8, level 0, cine3, detail off


that's funny how different people read different things. Here's the 1st comment Bill had on Phil's site in the link you sent me. he's got BLACK at -3. no mention of GAMMA level at 0. i still think supposed to be -40.


A few words on the PP settings I have called TC2 and TC3.
TC2 gives rich saturated realistic colors, perhaps a bit towards the red/yellow.
TC3(the second set Phil posted) uses the CINEMA preset and a Color Correction factor. TC3 is less saturated, more balanced towards blue/green than TC2.

The Black settings have evolved from my original recommendation. A setting of -12 gives full dynamic range to the capture, however, in order to maximize dynamic range, there is no headroom, or footroom if you prefer. IOW, controlled lighting is required or you’ll crush the shadows very easily. I have since backed off the Black setting to -3 for more headroom/footroom in less controlled lighting situations. It would seem even “0″ is more forgiving in run and gun situations.

I hope this helps those with questions.
best,
Bill

I ended up with black -8, level 0, cine3, detail off

Just so you know, those settings are what I chose after playing around with them, just looking at them on my Dell 2405. I don't have a true high-quality monitor or scopes, that's why I was following Bill's settings cause he set up the PP's with real monitors/scopes. Maybe try and contact him, or start a thread asking about his PP's?

did the same thing - read all the posts and couldn't find anything newer than what was on Philip's site. That's why I sent Bill an email asking about the latest tweaks/settings, but no reply.

Maybe if he gets more requests, he'll post something.

Unfortunately it seems if you want profile settings you either have to DIY or pay. I've got some settings from Paolo Ciccone I'll try and post up soon. His recipes for the JVC were legendary.

Hey guys...

I've read your posts with some curiosity and provide the following response:
I posted my profiles with good intentions, wanting to share and help fellow DVINFO.Net'ers. What I caused was a firestorm of criticism for a small few who took issue with my settings. I also shared one profile with Phil Bloom, asking that he keep it to himself, which he did not. Unfortunately, because of these few, I no longer post settings, nor make my settings available.

I thank you for your interest, and hope you can understand the dilemma.

Hey guys...

I've read your posts with some curiosity and provide the following response:
I posted my profiles with good intentions, wanting to share and help fellow DVINFO.Net'ers. What I caused was a firestorm of criticism for a small few who took issue with my settings. I also shared one profile with Phil Bloom, asking that he keep it to himself, which he did not. Unfortunately, because of these few, I no longer post settings, nor make my settings available.

I thank you for your interest, and hope you can understand the dilemma.

I won't complain! Willing to email them? If so, brian90402 AT gmail.
EX3 settings right?

I too won't complain. you can IM me if you'd like. i'll keep them under lock and key. thanks for your contributions to this site. i appreciate it.

-Mike

Bill: This is ridiculous that people are complaining about your PP's (I hadn't heard about that). You need to name names so we can ban them from this site. Hehehehe

I just can't understand how worked up some people can get over the most trivial stuff. You've done a great service to this site by the amount of work you've put into your PP's. Don't let some junior high idiots spoil your enthusiasm. What can we do as a group to change your mind?

Bill: This is ridiculous that people are complaining about your PP's (I hadn't heard about that). You need to name names so we can ban them from this site. Hehehehe

I just can't understand how worked up some people can get over the most trivial stuff. You've done a great service to this site by the amount of work you've put into your PP's. Don't let some junior high idiots spoil your enthusiasm. What can we do as a group to change your mind?


I second that...

I've read most of the posts about PP and I was wondering if these setting can be used for an EX3, I think I've seen posts saying no, not to use them and some are saying yes you can.

Thanks.

Hey guys...

I've read your posts with some curiosity and provide the following response:
I posted my profiles with good intentions, wanting to share and help fellow DVINFO.Net'ers. What I caused was a firestorm of criticism for a small few who took issue with my settings. I also shared one profile with Phil Bloom, asking that he keep it to himself, which he did not. Unfortunately, because of these few, I no longer post settings, nor make my settings available.

I thank you for your interest, and hope you can understand the dilemma.

Hey Bill,

I understand your frustration about publicly posting your PPs. If you are cool with direct messaging them I would love to check them out and see the results. I am experiementing with a few a of the widespread public ones out there and can't get the reuslts I'm looking for. Always to looking to test out new ones!

Unfortunately, because of these few, I no longer post settings, nor make my settings available.

Oh no. Don't let a few geeks on the Internet ruin your mood. We are all grateful for your sharing your efforts, and your work lives in a lot of EX1. Thank you for helping me to improve my EX1 picture quality.

thanx guys....I'm a little floored at the no. of people who have found something worthwhile in what I posted. Well, in any fora where there are a lot of viewers, it's a gaussian distribution of who's reading. Some people can use it, some people just want to tear it down. Just simple statistics. Guess I've learned that I don't like being that visible. Rather be a fly on the wall. If I come up with anything worth sharing, I'll let those who appreciate it, know. Now, if only I had a detector that could tell me....

well, I'm beginning to see that the "look" of the capture isn't as important as what I can morph it into in post. In other words, profiles aren't as significant as capturing the most dynamic range that allows me to make adjustments in post without introducing a lot of grain and color channel distortion. Alistair has posted some good info. Doesn't look so pretty on the EVF, but, it allows a lot of flexibility in post.

The weakness of digital video is the available dynamic range. Even Red cams, according to what I've been reading, don't have the dynamic rancge of film. So, the message is, go for max dynamic range, use proper lighting to keep from intoducing grain in the shadows.

Cineform is beta-ing a metadata method of adjusting exposure, contrast, color balance with their DI. This method holds a great deal of promise for CCing data that is superior to any in camera processing that I've seen. IOW, capture RAW, adjust in post. I think that's where technology is headed.
Thanx again..

Bill the work you have done on picture profiles has spurned a lot of good discussion and discovery on making what comes out of the camera even better.

It's unfortunate that your trust was violated in a public manner, however, I really hope you understand how important your contribution to the community of EX users has been. Every day thousands of cameras are capturing better images as a result of your work. Lots of us appreciate it and are reminded daily when we switch on our cameras or begin to work on footage in our NLEs.

I think it is still really important to keep the discussion and the discovery going as there is still a lot of finessing work that can be done. To loose your input Bill would be tragic in my view.

Bill
What Andrew said, in spades.
I've been using your PP settings since the beginning, with a few (very few, actually) modifications. Just wrapped principal on a caveman comedy feature film called "The Missing Link", 21 days shoot and nary a glitch. I agree with you that the RAW looking footage ends up by being the best materials to color correct from and pull DIs, but if you'd like to see what effect your input has had on this thread and my work, well look out for this movie, coming to a theater near you... when it's done.
Previously:
exposureroom.com/5150
exposureroom.com/2012
Both unfinished as yet but shot with Bill Raven PPs!

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Can anyone direct me to Bills PP? THere are just so many pages in this thread that I was just hoping that someone may have direct access to it. I really appreciate the help that everyone gives on this forum.

Thanks,
Brian

Post number 64 was the first of Bill's picture profiles. There were several tweakings in the pages after that.
Pete

Thanks, will the EX1 profile differ any at all for the EX3?

Thanks,
Brian

The EX1 PP can be used on the EX3. There's only a slight difference (if any) between the EX1 and EX3 PP's.

The EX1 PP can be used on the EX3. There's only a slight difference (if any) between the EX1 and EX3 PP's.

what might those differences be? if any???

The EX3 has a number of memory settings for the interchangeable lenses that is included in the setting files so that would make the files different from one saved on the EX1. The EX3 can "remember" an number of lenses and then when you attach the lens again you don't have to do the compensation settings. (There may be some additional settings for the studio remote on the EX3 - can't remember for sure.) I believe these extra data fields keep the files from being interchangeable between models.

I bet the two cameras would look pretty close to each other if you created identical profile settings on an EX1 & EX3.

It would be nice for someone with both cameras to confirm that...

ok, i've read every post on this thread/sticky and i still don't know everything there is to know about Picture Profiles(PP). I've made a list of questions about settings within the PP and hope that all of you, much more technical savvy individuals can help me out.

1. Matrix: Level: what does adjusting this do?
Phase: what does this do?

2. Color Correction: does anyone use this? if so, how and why?

3. Detail: I know detail is but i'm unaware of what (level, frequency, crispening, h/v ratio, white limit, black limit, v dtl creation, and knee apt level) are and what they do.

4. Skin Tone Detail: once again, does anyone use this? if so, how and why?

5. Gamma: Level: what does changing the level do? i can see on my monitor that adding/increasing + lightens the image and vice versa for decreasing/subtracting -. but what is it actually, technically doing?


thanks in advance. you guys are great.

-Mike

ok, i've read every post on this thread/sticky and i still don't know everything there is to know about Picture Profiles(PP). I've made a list of questions about settings within the PP and hope that all of you, much more technical savvy individuals can help me out.

Hi Mike

When you have an hour or so, go to

Sony Business Solutions & Systems - Featured (http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/ext/BroadcastandBusiness/minisites/NAB2009/videos.shtml)

and watch the 2 'Sony Camera Tips' videos. Juan Martinez, who occasionally posts here, explains all of the picture profile parameters.

Cheers, Nick

Michael here's some stuff on another Sony site, go to

Sony : Broadcast, Business and Professional Solutions : United Kingdom (http://www.sonybiz.net/)

Under "PRODUCTS" on the left click on "Broadcast & Pro A/V"
Then on the right side under "News & Events" click on "XDCAM EX Camcorder"
Then in the center of the page is "Reference Information" click on "More"
Close the bottom is "Shooting Tips for XDCAM EX" then finally on the right under "See Also" is a list of shooting tips Issue 4 may help answer some of your questions.

Sorry for this long list of steps but direct links to these articles do not seem to stay valid

There's tons of great info randomly spread through out this journey...

I wish Sony would put all the XDCAM EX stuff at one easy to find place - like the XDCAM EX Micro Site !!!

thanks Kevin and Nick. i'll check those site out soon.

I'm shooting a small TV commercial (posted another thread about lighting). First my situation... questions at the bottom of the post.

>GEAR: EX1 + Letus Extreme + Carl Zeiss Planar/Distagon optics (28/35/50/85) that are sold through the Letus webshop.

>TARGET: I'm looking for a nice and sharp TV commercial look, with a filmic touch. Nice well-reproduced colours (product is shown, so it's critical) and really pleasant and classic skin tones.

>LIGHTING: Controlled with 12x12 difussions (sillk for fill + half soft frost for overhead) + 12K PAR HMI (backlight) + 6K PAR HMI (key) + Reflector boards. Possible semi-cloudy day. Close-ups up to wide landscape shots with actors.

>MONITORING: No on the field waveform monitor, so I'll use Onlocation/Veescope/ScopeBox for MAC outing SD through FIREWIRE for Waveform monitoring, then switching back to HD for shooting.

>PP PROPOSAL:
Besides using ND + Circular polar, this is my current PP to try based on Bill Ravens but tweaked from other follow-ups:

Shooting 1080p@25 / 180º shutter

Gain: 0db
Manual white balance

Matrix ...............on
Select................hisat
Level..................0
Phase.................-5
R-G...................75
R-B...................0
G-R...................-18
G-B...................-32
B-R...................-27
B-G...................13

Color Correction..............off
White............................ off
Detail.............................On, Level 0, Frequency +65 (test 30/40), Crispening 0 (test 20/30), Black limiter +75, White limiter +75
Detail Level.....................0
Detail Freq......................0
Skintone.........................off

Knee..............................on
Auto knee......................on
Point.............................90
Slope............................0
Knee SAT level...............50

Gamma Level..............0 (test until -40)
Gamma Select.............CINE1 if sunny day / CINE3 if cloudy!
Black..........................-4, test up to -8/10
Black Gamma..............-2
Low Key Sat: 0

> QUESTIONS:
- What do you think about these settings for my target look? I've used Letus before and for this shot I think the detail is welcomed. The detail tweak was taken from some Letus user blog.
- When switching from SD monitoring back to HD to shoot, I guess it also goes from 50i to 25p (my shooting spec)... so, if I expose with the waveform for the SD/Firewire signal, I'd have to compensate 1 stop for the 50i->25p switch?
- I'm thinking about using up to ND1 on camera, and if in the need for more, go with 4x5.6 ND.3/6/9; using the Carl Zeiss lens between f2.8/4 and the camera iris between 4/5.6... what do you think about this? Remember I'm going after the best detailed picture (without compromising the rotating mirror of the Letus)
- Should I turn the auto knee off?

Thanks!
Luis

Sounds like you have all the settings set up, what else do you need to know?

The On/Off button is located at the rear of the camera.

Sounds like you have all the settings set up, what else do you need to know?

The On/Off button is located at the rear of the camera.

> QUESTIONS:
- What do you think about these settings for my target look? I've used Letus before and for this shot I think the detail is welcomed. The detail tweak was taken from some Letus user blog.
- When switching from SD monitoring back to HD to shoot, I guess it also goes from 50i to 25p (my shooting spec)... so, if I expose with the waveform for the SD/Firewire signal, I'd have to compensate 1 stop for the 50i->25p switch???
- I'm thinking about using up to ND1 on camera, and if in the need for more, go with 4x5.6 ND.3/6/9; using the Carl Zeiss lens between f2.8/4 and the camera iris between 4/5.6... what do you think about this? Remember I'm going after the best detailed picture (without compromising the rotating mirror of the Letus)
- Should I turn the auto knee off?

Thanks!

Luis,

I suggest you light and shoot a color test, then evaluate the results in FCP using the vectorscope. I lit & shot a simple Macbeth color chart and found these settings (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/815954-post92.html) gave me problems in the reds (too orange). I then tried these settings (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/906156-post310.html) and found the results to be much more accurate. I've the FCP video analysis tools combined with a decent monitor calibrated to rec. 709.

Nothing beats shooting a bunch of tests to understand what the STD and CINE curves provide.

anyone know the exact color settings pp recommended by the BBC? Thanks

anyone know the exact color settings pp recommended by the BBC? Thanks

you should IM Alister Chapman. he might know.

anyone know the exact color settings pp recommended by the BBC? Thanks

The BBC white paper is at BBC - R&D - Publications - WHP034 - Addendum 27 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/whp034-add30.shtml) with a link to the pdf. However, the picture profile settings do not include any recommendation for colour beyond 'roll your own matrix'.

another example (http://www.progresit.com/NICK.wmv) of Jims PP1 i posting #11
(file 126 mb so please be patient). This is the setting I personally prefer

color and a good fishing area, looks great :-) ,I always use the filter 486 mounted on the EX1.I did some tests with PP, used in interior settings STD4 with the BBC and outside PP BILL (TC2) CINE3

I have scanned through many of these pages, and hoping someone can save me some time trying to find what I am looking for.

I am looking for a good PP setting to use indoors, with low light. Nothing but standard lens.
I will probably use Doug Jensens from Vortex unless you guys suggest another profile.

Denny, this is a good thread to check out...

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-xdcam-ex-cinealta/237806-cine-gamma-settings-ex1.html

As a photographer, we shoot our images RAW, capturing all the data as its shot and later we grade or change how it looks, crushing blacks or blowing out highlights, to get a look we want. We do however save the RAW as shot as an "original master".

So my question here is this; do Picture Profiles change the data the EX1 records (ie Destructive), leaving some aspects like shadow detail or highlights lost forever or is it just XML data file (non-destructive) that simply changes how it looks.

thanks in advance

Greg Kiger
St Louis

This is the million dollar question. I have seen so many threads (Canon & Sony) about colour correction, or profiles in-camera. Yes, you are right, these are destructive, but can help you create a look which can be played back instantly. The downside is that you can spend hours trying to restore shadow, highlight, white balance or colour saturation to footage which has been shot with the wrong profile.

I prefer to shoot a flat image, i.e. nothing applied, which is the nearest video can get to shooting RAW. Then use my NLE to apply colour corrections and curves etc. I use a Matrox RTX2 card which allows you to save all the adjustments as a preset, this means I can just drop the preset onto my clip and it is applied instantly. Of course you can make tweaks to any of the settings.

Other people will have different views on the best way of working, but my method works well for me.

Vincent, I might have missed it earlier in the thread, but what profiles do you use to create your "flat" footage? I've been struggling with this a lot lately and would love to use this approach. Unfortunately, I often have to hand off my raw footage to another editor which gives me NO chance to do any post work on it. But, for my own projects, shooting flat would make more sense.

Thanks Vincent.To echo Daves question, are the default settings essentially RAW for the EX1?

meanwhile I will look into the Matrox card, I will also look into FCP to see if I can save a palette of looks.

thanks guys

Greg Kiger
St Louis

"Thanks Vincent.To echo Daves question, are the default settings essentially RAW for the EX1?"

Yes, the default settings are meant to produce a flat looking image, from here you can apply curves, colour coorections, saturation etc. Not, quite the same as shooting in RAW with a digital camera, but it will do as a starting point.

You might also want to take a look at Alister Chapmans guide to EX curves.

YouTube - XDCAM EX Gamma Curves and Knee, what they do and which ones to use. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-9aaK2gefg&fmt=18)

Isn't a flat picture profile very different from RAW just because of the compression down to 4.2.0 (or even 4.2.2 if outputting SDI)? So to my thinking, the closer you get your image coming out of your camera to your finished look the better final quality.

I remember seeing a hack for the DVX-100 where they took the data directly off the imager and ran it to a hard drive - sounded like it might have been similar to a RAW image file. Imagine what you could get if that type of hack was possible with the EX series...

So to my thinking, the closer you get your image coming out of your camera to your finished look the better final quality.

What you want to aim for is head room. If you tweak your image to the highest point of acceptable exposure, or colour saturation, then you can't do much with the final image. However, if you have room to make adjustments in your NLE, then this must be a better option. I would prefer to make my adjustments based on the subject matter rather that a "one profile does it all" scenario.

So my question here is this; do Picture Profiles change the data the EX1 records (ie Destructive), leaving some aspects like shadow detail or highlights lost forever or is it just XML data file (non-destructive) that simply changes how it looks.
Using a camera like the EX1 or EX3 is like shooting in JPEG mode. The raw data has already been modified before it hits the data pipe (even when using the SDI output). The footage has already been compressed, and it uses the Picture Profiles as the recipe.

The Red One shoots raw, and their proprietary software is designed to log & process the acquired footage.

One can debate the term "uncompressed" but the HD-SDI out is uncompressed. That does NOT mean it has not been processed. The HD-SDI out is processed by the picture profile but it has not been compressed by the XDCAM codec (when coming live off the head).

Using a camera like the EX1 or EX3 is like shooting in JPEG mode. The raw data has already been modified before it hits the data pipe (even when using the SDI output). The footage has already been compressed, and it uses the Picture Profiles as the recipe.

The Red One shoots raw, and their proprietary software is designed to log & process the acquired footage.

Red is a long way from RAW too...

Yes, the default settings are meant to produce a flat looking image, from here you can apply curves, colour coorections, saturation etc. Not, quite the same as shooting in RAW with a digital camera, but it will do as a starting point.

You might also want to take a look at Alister Chapmans guide to EX curves.

YouTube - XDCAM EX Gamma Curves and Knee, what they do and which ones to use. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-9aaK2gefg&fmt=18)

Thanks Vincent. I checked out the U tube piece on EX1 Curves. It differentiates between footage shot with the intention of being graded in post and not. Since my workflow involves grading all footage in post it sounded like I would be best served using the camera's Cine 1, 3 or 4 as a way of capturing the maximum amount of image information and leaving myself the greatest number options in post.

Would you agree with this bit of novice logic or advocate shooting at the flat factory defaults?

as always - thanks to everyone for the informative posts

Greg Kiger
St Louis

One can debate the term "uncompressed" but the HD-SDI out is uncompressed. That does NOT mean it has not been processed. The HD-SDI out is processed by the picture profile but it has not been compressed by the XDCAM codec (when coming live off the head).
I'm under the impression that the 4:2:2 output means it's compressed. If not, wouldn't it be 4:4:4?