Okay, I got the HV-20, the SD 302, the SD 744 and the MKH-60. I want to record to both the 744T and the HV-20.

There are a few different setups I'm considering. All would record to both to the camera and the recorder. Choices 2 and 4 try recording time code to one the HV-20 tracks.

From what I can tell so far, the HV-20 only takes mic level input. So I believe for choices one and two I will need an attenuator.

Camera and Recorder Only
1) MKH-60 to 744T, 744T audio output to HV-20.

2) MKH-60 to 744T, one channel of 744T audio and 744T LTC to HV-20.

Camera Mixer and Recorder
3) MKH-60 to SD 302, SD 302 to both 744T and HV-20.

4) MKH-60 to SD 302, SD 302 to 744T and one channel of SD 302 to HV-20, 744T LTC to HV-20.

I own not one audio cable right now. So which cables will I need to connect the above setup?

I will be filming mostly in living rooms and dens. I have no idea what kind of interference I will be encountering. I am definitely willing to pay more for better shielding and quality if it will make a difference in the sound.

THANKS VERY MUCH.

P.S. I look to add a Schoeps CMC6-41 and a Countryman B6 (I do have a Senn lav that came with the G2 kit) but I need to start somewhere now.

Your options 2 and 4 ... do you have an NLE that can read LTC recorded on the camera's audio channel and do anything with it? Unless you do, sending code from the recorder to the camera doesn't buy you anything and there's a risk of bleed over into the other channel. Canari and Mogami are excellent brands of cable that are widely accepted, Hosa also, but in truth most cables above the Radio Shack level of bargain cables are probably fine for all but the most challenging environments.

Peter: Just make sure the miniplug on your breakaway cable will fit the jack on the HV 20. The breakaway I rented did not have a minijack at all, necessitating a pair of adapters, and the plug on them was too wide for the side door of the HV 20.

Let us know how you make out.

Your options 2 and 4 ... do you have an NLE that can read LTC recorded on the camera's audio channel and do anything with it? Unless you do, sending code from the recorder to the camera doesn't buy you anything and there's a risk of bleed over into the other channel. Canari and Mogami are excellent brands of cable that are widely accepted, Hosa also, but in truth most cables above the Radio Shack level of bargain cables are probably fine for all but the most challenging environments.Steve, I'll be using Avid Xpress Pro, which I believe can synch using timecode recorded to an audio track.

I hate to be such a newbie, but looking at the setups above, could you possibly give me a some kind of a list of the cables I'll need? Like I said, I own not one cable. Thanks SO MUCH.

4) MKH-60 to SD 302, SD 302 to 744T and one channel of SD 302 to HV-20, 744T LTC to HV-20.

I own not one audio cable right now. So which cables will I need to connect the above setup?

Hi Peter,
Here's what I think you might need (always have a few spares)
MKH-60 to SD302 - xlr male to xlr female cable
SD302 to 744T - xlr male to xlr female cable
SD302 to HV-20 - xlr female cable to mini jack1/8 cable (choose small shell 1/8 connectors)

744T LTC to the HV-20?
I'm not sure if that's possible... can anyone chip in?
A search on the HV20 forum came up blank.

Your 302's output levels are adjustable in the menu from line level down to mic level, so attentuators should not be necessary when connecting directly to the camera. You'll need to make up a proper "Y" adapter cable to combine two XLR-F to 1/8 TRS stereo mini to send audio from the 302 to the camera, wired as follows ... Right XLR pin 2 to mini Tip, Right XLR Pin 1 to mini Sleeve, Left XLR Pin 2 to mini Ring, Left XLR Pin 1 also to mini Sleeve and leave both XLR pins 3 unconnected.

The 744's timecode I/O is on a 5-pin LEMO connector and Sound Devices lists both LEMO to XLR and LEMO to BNC cables in their accessories. The XLR cable is a "Y" that has both male XLR for output and female XLR for input on it. To send code from the recorder to your camera you would need an XLR to mini adapter such as the one described above where you'd connect the male XLR on the SD cable to one of the XLR-F connectors on the adapter through a pretty heavy duty attentuator since the TC signal is way above mic level. NOTE HOWEVER, I don't find any indication that the 744 outputs code continuously during recording, only during playback (I may be wrong, perhaps a 744 owner will chime in on that.) I haven't worked with Avid Express so I don't know for sure just what tools for TC it has available but I'm very skeptical that your notion of recording code to an audio track in the camera (assuming the 744 actually outputs code continuously during recording, which I doubt) is going to actually accomplish anything useful for you and I don't believe it will help you sync up the recorder's audio files to the video. I know for a fact that it won't help maintain sync by locking the 744 and the camera's sample clocks together. When you drop a video clip onto the timeline you align to the VTC recorded in the video. Then when you drop the audio BWF into editor, it lines up the timestamp in the file header with the editor timeline. So the video TC in the camera needs to be the same as the audio TC in the recorder - but with your HV-20 there's no way to do that as it doesn't input or output code. AFAIK, the code recorded on the in-camera audio track can't be substituted for the code that should have been recorded in the video track - as I said, I haven't worked with Avid Express so I might be wrong but I'd sure as heck check it out to make sure before betting the farm on your projected workflow. If you really want to use the TC output of the recorder to set a sync point in the video, instead do it "film style" using a smart slate with TC display that has been jammed from the recorder that you photograph at the start of each scene. You input the video clip in the editor and set the timeline to match up to the numbers visible on the slate, then input the audio BWF and it aligns its timestamp to matching timeline numbers, setting the two files into sync in the process.

Professional cameras are another story. A broadcast or prosumer camera with TC I/O could either serve as a master, sending continuous code to the recorder for it to slave to or the recorder could be the master sending code that the camera is jammed against.

Steve, Thanks so much for your in-depth post(s). I called Sound Devices and they said they "believe" the LEMO output is a continuous timecode signal during recording, but they said they couldn't answer 100% positively and that I should just give it a try, LOL. Well that's what I'll do.

I also posted on Avid's forums and am waiting for a reply. But looking there before posting here, it looked like Avid can use LTC recorded to an audio channel for synching externally recorded sound.

And this thread on DVXUser seems to support the timecode strategy we've been discussing: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=108526&highlight=timecode+avid+audio

Now for another newbie ?: What are breakaway cables?

THANKS :).

Steve, Thanks so much for your in-depth post(s). I called Sound Devices and they said they "believe" the LEMO output is a continuous timecode signal during recording, but they said they couldn't answer 100% positively and that I should just give it a try, LOL. Well that's what I'll do.

I also posted on Avid's forums and am waiting for a reply. But looking there before posting here, it looked like Avid can use LTC recorded to an audio channel for synching externally recorded sound.

And this thread on DVXUser seems to support the timecode strategy we've been discussing: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=108526&highlight=timecode+avid+audio

Now for another newbie ?: What are breakaway cables?

THANKS :).


LOL - I was going to ask SD about output oin the LEMO. I know it outputs during playback but I don't know about recording.

What has me scratching my head about Avid - I've been told there's a plugin that will read the code from an audio track and shift the track to line up on a video track but I wonder if it will align a BWF timestamp to code associated with another AUDIO track, which is what you're proposing. I don't have any idea, having never worked with Avid, but I still wonder if it's worth the hassle. Contrary to popular mythology, timecode doesn't do anything to prevent the audio and video from drifting out of sync (film going through telecine, where the timecode controls the frame rate of the film playback device, is another matter). All it does is provide a lineup reference point to help establish initial sync at a single point in the clips but it doesn't lock the audio and video together. While it has other advantages such as scene logging, etc, when it comes to syncing audio and video tracks timecode doesn't actually do anything that an old-fashioned manual clapper slate doesn't do so I wonder if it's going to be worth the trouble.

A breakway cable is a snake that goes from the mixer to the camera bundling together the left and right channel audio signals plus usually a headphone return for monitoring camera audio at the mixer position. There's usually an inline connector near one or both ends that lets you break the cable at that point to simplify moving the camera and/or sound gear between setups without having to drag the cable connecting them along behind yet saving wear and tear on the connectors to the camera and mixer. See http://remoteaudio.com/cables.htm#betacam for some examples

Here's a thread from Avid's formus that seems to pretty conclusively say that it can be done. But it also seems like it's not much better than synching with a clapper, like you suggested. But it seems worth a try.

Thanks again!

Oops: http://www.avid.com/exchange/forums/thread/294201.aspx

LOL - I was going to ask SD about output oin the LEMO. I know it outputs during playback but I don't know about recording.

It does. I was on-set with a mixer who used the 744's TC output to keep his PC audio input set to the correct TC.

FYI, other manufacturers make Lemo to BNC and Lemo to XLR output cables. Remote Audio's cables are great and work well.

Wayne

It does. I was on-set with a mixer who used the 744's TC output to keep his PC audio input set to the correct TC.

FYI, other manufacturers make Lemo to BNC and Lemo to XLR output cables. Remote Audio's cables are great and work well.

Wayne

Was that sending TC or WordClock from the recorder to the PC?

I've been trying to find more info on Avid and other NLEs ability to do something with linear code recorded on an audio track. Avid does have a Read Audio Timecode tool that will read LTC recorded on an audio track and generate an auxilliary timeline from it. Wondering now if any other NLEs have similar tool? Haven't found anything that would work like that in Vegas or Premiere Pro, is Avid the only one? Anyone heard of any add-ins for other NLE's?

Was that sending TC or WordClock from the recorder to the PC?

Came out of the LEMO, so I suspect it was timecode and not wordclock.

Wayne

Okay, I got the HV-20, the SD 302, the SD 744 and the MKH-60. I want to record to both the 744T and the HV-20.

There are a few different setups I'm considering. All would record to both to the camera and the recorder. Choices 2 and 4 try recording time code to one the HV-20 tracks.

From what I can tell so far, the HV-20 only takes mic level input. So I believe for choices one and two I will need an attenuator.

Camera and Recorder Only
1) MKH-60 to 744T, 744T audio output to HV-20.

2) MKH-60 to 744T, one channel of 744T audio and 744T LTC to HV-20.

Camera Mixer and Recorder
3) MKH-60 to SD 302, SD 302 to both 744T and HV-20.

4) MKH-60 to SD 302, SD 302 to 744T and one channel of SD 302 to HV-20, 744T LTC to HV-20.

I own not one audio cable right now. So which cables will I need to connect the above setup?

I will be filming mostly in living rooms and dens. I have no idea what kind of interference I will be encountering. I am definitely willing to pay more for better shielding and quality if it will make a difference in the sound.

THANKS VERY MUCH.

P.S. I look to add a Schoeps CMC6-41 and a Countryman B6 (I do have a Senn lav that came with the G2 kit) but I need to start somewhere now.

Peter, here's what I'd do. (Impressive kit, btw)

Call Sound Devices monday and ask who they would suggest for the mixer to camera hoses. The 442 mixer has it all that and more; three separate stereo outputs. The 302 has balanced XLR outs and an unbalanced stereo out. I'm slightly squeamish about running unbalanced, but you might get away with it if the cables are short.

I don't remember if the unbalanced stereo out automatically follows the main out when switched to mic or line, but even if it did, you could come into the 744T and HV-20 at mic level, provided you can get cables that convert from TA3 to an XLR split. Sound Devices makes a lot of cable options. I don't see this on theri page, but that doesn't mean they dopn't have it.

Radio Shack is NOT the place to go for this stuff, given your investment.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is to go to a shop and pick their brains. I have the same camera and am visiting a shop in NY on Monday to see what the options are. After speaking with them on the phone, it seems like having them make a breakaway that has the correct connectors for my camera is the way to go, as opposed to buying a standard one and adding adapters to get down to mini plug size. I'd rather spare myself the aggravation of adapters cables hanging all over the place. Though you might want the adapters and a standard cable if you plan to change cameras in the near future.

FWIW, my shopping suggests that a standard breakaway for this camera to mixer is probably in the area of $225, depending on length.

I'll let you know how I make out with the cable

Bob

Take a look at these cables:

http://www.trewaudio.com/store/home.php?cat=13

There are a bunch of options there.

Wayne

Was that sending TC or WordClock from the recorder to the PC?

I've been trying to find more info on Avid and other NLEs ability to do something with linear code recorded on an audio track. Avid does have a Read Audio Timecode tool that will read LTC recorded on an audio track and generate an auxilliary timeline from it. Wondering now if any other NLEs have similar tool? Haven't found anything that would work like that in Vegas or Premiere Pro, is Avid the only one? Anyone heard of any add-ins for other NLE's?This apparently works for Final Cut: http://www.videotoolshed.com/?page=products&pID=26

I wasn't able to find anything for Vegas or Premiere. But since Vegas is so scripting friendly, I IMAGINE it's a possibility.

... After speaking with them on the phone, it seems like having them make a breakaway that has the correct connectors for my camera is the way to go, as opposed to buying a standard one and adding adapters to get down to mini plug size. I'd rather spare myself the aggravation of adapters cables hanging all over the place. Though you might want the adapters and a standard cable if you plan to change cameras in the near future...Bob, just be sure that the cables going to the HV-20 fits not only its mic input but also delivers a mic level signal, otherwise you'll have to attach an attenuator. I believe most line level to mic level attenuators connect to XLR to mini, not mini to mini. So if you'll be adding an attenuator, then you may actually WANT the cable for the camera to be XLR.

Is there a certain length that should be avoided because its too long a distance for the signal to cleanly travel, or is this really a moot point (practically speaking) with XLR cables?

Is there a certain length that should be avoided because its too long a distance for the signal to cleanly travel, or is this really a moot point (practically speaking) with XLR cables?

Well, not quite moot for many of us who are doing work in larger rooms. I recently had to go through the math for a 420' run of line level...

There is a formula:
-3 dB Frequency = 1 / (cable length x capacitance per unit length x output Z x 2 x Pi)
for determining the high-frequency cutoff point of a particular cable. Longer cables tend to affect the signal as a low-pass filter (cut off high freqs.) Output Z refers to the output impedance of the source. This effect is known as "line loading", and is all about the total capacitance of the cable. The manufacturer supplies a spec, for example "60pf/foot", pf referring to picofarads of capacitance.

Suffice to say that (using pro low-impedance devices) any pro cable ought to get you at least 100' at mic level and 150' at line level, and usually more.

Radio frequency interference (RFI) is quite another matter, and may occur with any cable length. Here the remedies are: monitor always, balanced cables and circuits, test the cables, shorter cables, longer cables, different cables, move the cables, don't run audio cables parallel to power cables or other metal, etc. which sounds intimidating but in practice only occasionally occurs with pro equipment.

I'd certainly agree with those who've posted above that 25' is a very practical length for audio-for-video in field work.

Bob, just be sure that the cables going to the HV-20 fits not only its mic input but also delivers a mic level signal, otherwise you'll have to attach an attenuator. I believe most line level to mic level attenuators connect to XLR to mini, not mini to mini. So if you'll be adding an attenuator, then you may actually WANT the cable for the camera to be XLR.

I went to the shop today. It's easier to use a standard breakaway and adapter than to make a cable specific for the HV20. Would also be unreasonably expensive according to the sales guy.

FWIW, this is the cable configuration I believe I'll need to get the 744T's timecode into one of the HV-20's audio tracks:

LEMO to XLR cable. XLR to XLR attenuator. Mini stereo to two XLR Y-adapter.

FWIW, this is the cable configuration I believe I'll need to get the 744T's timecode into one of the HV-20's audio tracks:

LEMO to XLR cable. XLR to XLR attenuator. Mini stereo to two XLR Y-adapter.

Looks good to me. Are you going to put a scratch mono audio track on the other channel? Don't forget to slate your takes - I still have my doubts about this workflow doing much for you in terms of streamlining the sync process and it would be good to have slates and a scratch track as a backup. And be sure to experiment with some practice shoots before going out to do it 'for-real' to make sure everything works - really looking forward to reading a report back to us detailing your workflow and experiences in post-production - what you did, what worked and what didn't - when you get the chance.

I went to the shop today. It's easier to use a standard breakaway and adapter than to make a cable specific for the HV20. Would also be unreasonably expensive according to the sales guy.Bob,

Possibly MY BAD.

I believe the HV-20 may be able to accept line level in. It has both an attenuator and a way to manually adjust down the input level.

I'm looking into it more. (I'm just so busy trying to put everything together, that I over looked this feature.)

That said I've seen a lot of posts saying the HV-20's attenuation options are not enough. But I've also read others that say they are enough. So I guess we'll find out soon either way.


P.S. Poking around has turned up that the attenuator probably cuts the signal by 24dB.