Hi folks,
I just picked up my JY-HD1OU from Fedex. I won't have time to try it properly until tonight unfortunately, but my first impressions on handling it were:

1) It's tiny! Smaller than a GL1, but much more sturdily built, and I like that Feels like it could take some work on the road.

2) It's hard to believe that the pictures I've been seeing could have come from such a small package.

3) It comes with 2 interchangeable metal handles, one regular one, and the larger one with the XLR inputs on it.

4) The onoff/play/camera/record button is kind of small and stiff to operate, and will take some getting used to.

I'll get back to you later once I've had a chance to do something with it, i.e. shoot something.

All the best

Awesome Paul! I look forward to seeing some images from you as well . How much and where did you get the HD10? Check out the A/S control to see if you can over ride all auto systems. Do you have an HD system to view the material?

If you can, Shoot a color chart and resolution chart if you have access to one.....

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1
www.PappasArts.com
Arrfilms@hotmail.com

Hey Paul,

Sweet! That's from B&H, right?

FYI, everyone, I am buying mine from a local distributor for $3195. Yes, that's the price. With tax, it's $3400 even. Shocking! Less than the HD1, and I wonder why!

My first impressions were the same as Paul's! Let us know if you borrowed your brother's HD Ike to test. And tell us if you notice a "one chip" lack of quality, like Alex was theorizing yesterday.

heath

I've just been out quickly at lunchtime to test the controls and do some shooting on auto. I won't be able to look at the footage till tonight so I'll report back on that then.

As far as the controls go, as expected they are totally consumer level. I am used to a professional level camera (Ike DV7VW mainly) and haven't used a GL1-2 level camera for a while, so it's more exaggerated for me.

That's the first thing I realized, a lot of what you pay for on a high end camera is the accurate controls that you can dial in and be sure of what you're getting. On this thing I haven't got a clue what I've got.

The on/off/camera/playback/auto/manual switch is horrendous! really hard to turn on the camera without hitting the Rec. button at the same time.

I quickly tried the manual focus and zoom controls and they sucked, probably worse than a GL1. The manual zoom really isn't a manual zoom at all, just a ring that controls an electronic zoom, and it was much less controllable than the rocker zoom switch.
As far as focus goes, god only knows what I got, I can't judge anything from either the viewfinder or the LCD to any degree of accuracy. But the GL1 etc. sucked just as badly in that department IMHO. If only I could put my Ike B&W viewfinder on the top of this thing I'd be ok, but even if I could attach it, it's bigger than this camera and would look ridiculous!

Having said that all these terrible things about it, it's just what I expected, you aren't going to be doing any rack focusing with this camera, again, the controls are consumer level.

I bought this camera for the picture quality that I've seen, so hopefully it will deliver in that dept. I'll let you know later if it does, then we'll have to figure out how to work around all the other stuff.

Cheers.

I expected just as much and that's what I saw as well, Paul. And I agree with the analogy to the GL-1; it's a nightmare for me (who uses DVCPro and BetaCam more than my XL-1, which is similar to pro cameras) to control the GL-1! This isn't nearly as bad, since I figured out what I was doing quicker than on the many GL-1's I've used.

I never did rack focuses any way; this will be a great camera for my uber-low budget films. For the bigger budgeted films, we'll shoot with a CineAlta my buddy owns.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg :

Having said that all these terrible things about it, it's just what I expected, you aren't going to be doing any rack focusing with this camera, again, the controls are consumer level.

Cheers. -->>>

Someone summed it up pretty good to me. They said it's like a box camera with no thrills at all. But the one thing it has is a good image ( ? ) for the price. It's 20 or 30x less in cost then any other HD camera. So in reverse is the HD10 20 or 30x worse in picture quality. I would say not.

I find it funny that JVC has not come back to the board to answer atleast some of the questions though.

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1
www.PappasArts.com
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
__________________

I agree. Look, I don't do a lot of fancy shooting, I'm a filmmaker who's a bit reserved (until my next film) on camera stuff. This will be ideal for me.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : Someone summed it up pretty good to me. They said it's like a box camera with no thrills at all. But the one thing it has is a good image ( ? ) for the price. It's 20 or 30x less in cost then any other HD camera. So in reverse is the HD10 20 or 30x worse in picture quality. I would say not.

<<<-- I never did rack focuses any way; this will be a great camera for my uber-low budget films. For the bigger budgeted films, we'll shoot with a CineAlta my buddy owns. -->>>

I think you've expressed it well. For big pay broadcast projects go with the high-end stuff. When there is no budget to spend -- live with the "consumer controls" to get an image that stands-out.

The odd thing is the notion that one needs to know the iris setting directly. You had to know in the old days because you tranferred the reading from your lightmeter to the lens. Now you simply adjust until it looks right.

Of course one might want to work at a particular Fstop. But with a zoom lens the sweet-spot may change with the zoom.

But with a trick you can learn the Fstop so you can get a good idea of where you are at. Then count the + or - steps as you adjust.

In short, you either pay in money or in labor. For many of us, HDCAM money is not even an option. So we need to be clever.

Steve, the "Exposure" control on this camera. Is it just an electronic "Gain up-down" control, as on a professional camera?. I'm assuming it's not also adjusting the Iris.

Paul

In short, you either pay in money or in labor. For many of us, HDCAM money is not even an option. So we need to be clever. -->>>

Yes, to think the HD10 is a 100,000 dollar camera is insane. Although, the fact that the Varicam is a 1 million pixel camera and the HD10 is 800,000 + pixels. That's interesting, and I'd LOVE to do some tests with both.

heath

Heath, pixels aren't everything though. The Varicam is a professional level camera, it has top end optics and all that....

Just like how some pictures from a expensive 2MP digital camera look much better then from a cheap 3-4MP camera.

<<<-- Originally posted by Alex Knappenberger : Heath, pixels aren't everything though. The Varicam is a professional level camera, it has top end optics and all that....

Just like how some pictures from a expensive 2MP digital camera look much better then from a cheap 3-4MP camera. -->>>

We'll see, based on what the tests we'll do. I am on the fence about the Varicam: When you have a huge budget (like NBC's CARRIE remake), it looks good, but on a lower budget, it looks "janky," and expression we use at my station for crap.

heath

<<<The odd thing is the notion that one needs to know the iris setting directly. You had to know in the old days because you tranferred the reading from your lightmeter to the lens. Now you simply adjust until it looks right.>>>

It's not very odd at all! If I want the lens to perform it will need to be in the middle ground. If I want to shoot with extreme DOF I will want to stop down as far as I can with out the shutter kicking in to 1/15th as the GR-HD1U does.
If I am shooting miniatures, then I must have and know where my f-stop is. The 8yr old VX1000 did this. Every camera in this price range ( $3,400+ ) has allowed independent shutter/Iris settings since late 1995.

I might want to pan into a dark part of a scene to only track into normal exposed setting. If you can't lock both shutter and Iris, the camera will lower the shutter to 1/15th and open the iris to get as much light in while you track across the dark parts of the set. This already has happen with the tests I have done with the HD1U.

Maybe the HD10 is different or I have still have yet to figure out the way to make sure that shutter always stays at 1/60th and never changes while I have what ever aperture setting I want. What’s JVC have to say?


Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1
www.PappasArts.com
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
__________________

>>When you have a huge budget (like NBC's CARRIE remake), it looks good, but on a lower budget, it looks "janky," and expression we use at my station for crap.<<

The Vari-Cam looks like crap on a low budget??? This, with the "24p = a crappy image comment," is getting strange...so does the Vari-Cam somehow sense the low budget and then go into "crap" mode? Or are you saying that bad lighting makes for a crappy image? I'm not understanding you? And if the Vari-Cam looks like crap on a low budget then this JVC HD cam should be nothing but a paper weight then.

I would translate "on a lower budget" to read as inferior lighting, which not even the VariCam can fix, re: garbage in, garbage out.

So I would say yes, the VariCam (and just about any camera for that matter) can sense a low budget... in other words, if the production values are low (lighting, etc.), then sure, that will definitely show up on tape (or film, or whatever).

It's not the plane, but the pilot. Hope this helps,

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas :If I want the lens to perform it will need to be in the middle ground.--->

The number of folks shooting video in the world who worry about what the aperature is at with a zoom lens has got to be near zero. But if you have time to worry, basically you step open and closed till you reach the point of no change. One point is F1.8 and the other is F22. Now click up a number to get into the middle range. Actually this Film 101 concept assumes you've made bench tests to determine where the sweet point is. We really have no idea about the JVC lens other than don't go near F22 or near F1.8. But this isn't rocket science. Sort of like buy low and sell high. :)


<--- If I want to shoot with extreme DOF I will want to stop down as far as I can without the shutter kicking in to 1/15th as the GR-HD1U does. --->

With 1/3-inch CCDs it's damn near impossible to control DOF by stopping down. It works with pro-camcorders ONLY because they have 2/3-inch chips. In any case, if you think about it, if you SEE the action blur you know you've gone below 1/60th so back up 1 click. So that's the least DOF you can get. Knowing the Fstop gives you nothing more.



<--- If I am shooting miniatures, then I must have and know where my f-stop is. --->

The number of folks shooting video in the world who shoot minatures is also near zero. And if that's you bag, then you control light so the shutter stays at 1/60th -- and then you can read-out the Fstop as you adjust.


< -- The 8yr old VX1000 did this. Every camera in this price range ( $3,400+ ) has allowed independent shutter/Iris settings since late 1995. --->

I've had dozens camera with "features" like self-timer and INT REC -- used each about once. Who cares how many buttons a camera has. It only needs to do what you need it to do. (OK -- the old fashioned lens rings are a hell of lot better! But they got removed from prosumer cameras over a decade ago. Damn!)


<-- I might want to pan into a dark part of a scene to only track into normal exposed setting. --->

And you might also want to capture a scene with 10 stop range of light. You can't do it with any $3500 video camera. Knowing this, you plan the shot differently -- or control the light.


<--- Maybe the HD10 is different or I have still have yet to figure out the way to make sure that shutter always stays at 1/60th and never changes while I have what ever aperture setting I want. --->

I expect Paul will let us all know very soon!

Well I'm very frustrated right now as I know I shot some reasonably good stuff today, but I cannot view it as I cannot get either of the Mac utilities to capture from my camera, and I don't have a tape for my DVHS deck that arrived today (because I didn't think I'd need it yet) and the PC capture utility won't intstall on Win 2000 which is all I have, and when I tried to install on my PC at work that DOES have XP, the damn thing wouldn't accept the software serial #, and to top it all off, my HD monitor hasn't arrived yet. Ahhhh!!
Oh well, better luck tomorrow I hope! I better go before I get thrown off this foum for swearing!

See ya

<<<I've posted Exposure Control 101 on Sunday. You said if anyone had any ideas about HOW to control A/S they should post and you would try again.>>>

I did go back and spent almost an hour with the camera. Could not get the friggin shutter to stay at 1/60th. I set the shutter and then the aperture and left it alone. Aperture didn't move, but the shutter would change when it wanted to. If I did the reverse and left the shutter on screen at 1/60th, the aperture would adjust when it wanted too. Don't know what else to do.
You say the HD10 is different, maybe it is in this area too!

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts9
http://www.pbase.com/PappasArts1
www.PappasArts.com
Arrfilms@hotmail.com

<<< I did go back and spent almost an hour with the camera. Could not get the friggin shutter to stay at 1/60th. I set the shutter and then the aperture and left it alone. >>>


Michael, you are still not doing it right.

Did you read MC 101?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10892


1. Set shutter-speed.

2. Do NOT touch the S/A button again.

3. Now use the Exposure Control dial to set the aperature so the image looks as you want. (Usually you'll only need to step open or closed by a few clicks. Up in low contrast lighting. Down in high contrast lighting.)

4. Now you can lock the aperature by holding down the Exposure Control dial for 2 seconds.

5. Press the Exposure Control dial briefly to unlock iris.

For the next shot repeat 3 through 5.

Thanks steve! I will try it again tomorrow.


Michael



<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : <<< I did go back and spent almost an hour with the camera. Could not get the friggin shutter to stay at 1/60th. I set the shutter and then the aperture and left it alone. >>>


Michael, you are still not doing it right.

Did you read MC 101?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10892


1. Set shutter-speed.

2. Do NOT touch the S/A button again.

3. Now use the Exposure Control dial to set the aperature so the image looks as you want. (Usually you'll only need to step open or closed by a few clicks. Up in low contrast lighting. Down in high contrast lighting.)

4. Now you can lock the aperature by holding down the Exposure Control dial for 2 seconds.

5. Press the Exposure Control dial briefly to unlock iris.

For the next shot repeat 3 through 5. -->>>

Trouble is MC 101 does not work at least with my GR-HD1. When using shutter or aperture priority, the exposure control is locked out.

You get your choice of 1:
- shutter/aperture priority
- exposure control
- backlight
- program AE

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen
With 1/3-inch CCDs it's damn near impossible to control DOF by stopping down. It works with pro-camcorders ONLY because they have 2/3-inch chips. In any case, if you think about it, if you SEE the action blur you know you've gone below 1/60th so back up 1 click. So that's the least DOF you can get. Knowing the Fstop gives you nothing more.

...

The number of folks shooting video in the world who shoot minatures is also near zero. And if that's you bag, then you control light so the shutter stays at 1/60th -- and then you can read-out the Fstop as you adjust.
--->

I don't know why you would say this. There's nothing magic about small sensors that makes the DOF math work any different. I can easily demonstrate DOF differences on my GR-HD1 and have already done so. f/22 is very high for a sensor that small and I suspect it's a compensated number. I don't believe the physical aperture changes as much as one would expect.

Also, I shoot miniatures although I call it macro. Your description of how to do that, at least with these cameras, is non-sensical.

When shooting macro, you'd like to fix the aperture and control the exposure to make sure you don't blow out your subject. That is impossible with the GR-HD1. The best I can do is use the exposure compensation and hope that the camera chooses a high enough aperture to provide DOF.

My application is underwater, btw. Half of everything I shoot is macro and lighting is not always easily controlled. It would be nice if the camera was. If MC 101 worked I'd be happy.

You guys are spending all your energies defending what is evidently a very subpar consumer product. From the screen shots, it's evident that the overall image quality is barely onpar with the DVX100, even at HD res! The color dynamics is way lacking and dynamic range is just as good as my old Digital 8 cam, and not to mention that horribly aliasing. Now it seems there're some manual control issues. Why not just suck it up and admit that you guys were the unfortunate guinea pigs on this one. From what I've seen thus far, NO serious work can be done with this cam, unless you want to show off your home videos to a select few audience members, in front of your Pro-HD monitor and using your camera as the deck.

You are blasting us when all you've seen is a simple screenshot. How about you hold off on those comments until you actually demo the camera.

Best,

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Yang Wen : You guys are spending all your energies defending what is evidently a very subpar consumer product. From the screen shots, it's evident that the overall image quality is barely onpar with the DVX100, even at HD res! The color dynamics is way lacking and dynamic range is just as good as my old Digital 8 cam, and not to mention that horribly aliasing. Now it seems there're some manual control issues. Why not just suck it up and admit that you guys were the unfortunate guinea pigs on this one. From what I've seen thus far, NO serious work can be done with this cam, unless you want to show off your home videos to a select few audience members, in front of your Pro-HD monitor and using your camera as the deck. -->>>

A picture speaks a 1000 words. Simple preliminary screenshots were enough to convince me how great VX2000 back in the days and how great the DVX100 is. I wouldn't say I'm blasting you guys, but more so JVC but putting out what could be a "revolutionary" product with such dissapointment.

<<<-- Originally posted by Yang Wen : A picture speaks a 1000 words. Simple preliminary screenshots were enough to convince me how great VX2000 back in the days and how great the DVX100 is. I wouldn't say I'm blasting you guys, but more so JVC but putting out what could be a "revolutionary" product with such dissapointment. -->>>

I still disagree, having seen the images and handled the camera. I think the images are much better than the DVX 100.

<<<-- Originally posted by Craig Jones : Trouble is MC 101 does not work at least with my GR-HD1. When using shutter or aperture priority, the exposure control is locked out.

You get your choice of 1:
- shutter/aperture priority
- exposure control
- backlight
- program AE -->>>

I belive you -- although the manual does not say this.

It says the EC can't be used with:

SPOTLIGHT
SNOW
BACKLIGHT

I can't see why Snow is listed. Perhaps it's a bug in the manual and should say S/A.

But, there is no mention under the S/A control of ANY limitations.

Did you press in the Exposure Dial before adjusting?

With all this talk of how great it is, i'm surprised new owners havent put up any video clips of stuff shot on it. Please some one do so. I'd like to be proved wrong in this case, but I doubt it'll be that. Maybe you'r just embarrased to put up clips from this cam?

Yeah I'd like to see some clips too.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen

But, there is no mention under the S/A control of ANY limitations.

Did you press in the Exposure Dial before adjusting? -->>>

Yes. I tried carefully and made sure I held the button for a long time. On my camera at least, you get one of the options but they are all mutually exclusive. SNOW and BACKLIGHT are program AE's which also get disabled by exposure comp or S/A.

If they'd just allow exposure comp along with S/A we'd be set.

<<<-- Originally posted by Yang Wen : With all this talk of how great it is, i'm surprised new owners havent put up any video clips of stuff shot on it. Please some one do so. I'd like to be proved wrong in this case, but I doubt it'll be that. -->>>

I doubt many have access to the storage and bandwidth necessary to post raw files. I do, but I don't feel qualified to shoot video that may influence others. I'm exclusively an underwater videographer.

If you have requests I may be able to help.

Hi folks,

Just a quick note. I'm having too much fun with this new camera to spend a lot of time posting here right now, but will try and get a more detailed review later. I am also not a highly technical camera person, though I know enough to shoot high quality material. I would like to post some footage today or tomorrow. If someone could tell me where I could upload some to as I don' have a server myself, and how long the clips should be, I imagine no more than 8 seconds each for ease of downloading. I have only just got mPEG studio pro going so haven't been able to easiily edit anything, and have to learn how to use that package.

Anyway, in my head this camera is getting the nickname "The Bipolar Camera" as it is such a dichotomy. On the one hand it has awful controls, the shutter/iris non complete manual issue is a big one, the whites blow out easily. It adapts to changing light situations very slowly and visibly, it handles certain lighting situations very badly and can display pretty bad compression artifacts. When you pan or tilt, there appears to be a juddering problem under certain circumstances, where the compression doesn't seem to be able to keep up with the data coming in, (at a guess). You have to shoot at 1/30th to get a nice film type blur on fast moving objects.

On the other hand. I believe that SOME of the images I'm getting not only blow away ALL SD cameras in terms of detail and film-like image quality, but the average viewer would be hard pressed to tell them apart from Varicam footage or something of that standard.

The one thing I'm seeing is that this camera has a completly different look from DV, and I like it very much. The camera is going to have a niche market. I would not reccomend it for anyone who just wants to point and shoot home videos, (as is it's intended market), it is far too picky in what it can and can't do. I would also not reccomend it for professional shoots wher this is the only camera you have. It is not a tool that you can dial in, you will always have to work around its many inaequacies and awful controls. However, if you are up for a challenge and love learning about the obscure traits of strange new CCD, it might be for you, as I think it is for me, and it might reward you with some stunning images that are just not possible on DV.

At it's best, and under very specific circumstances, this camera delivers gorgeous pictures, that are extremely film-like, with excellent natural color reproduction and incredible detail that I'm sure could be blown up on a 40' screen and look like a Varicam shot film (at 30p)

At it's worst it delivery grainy, artifact ridden, blown out crap, that you wouldn't want to show to your dog. I hope to shoot some of the beter stuff once I learn this thing.

All the best

Paul

Paul how about some full rez still frames as well?

Michael Pappas
www.Pbase.com/PappasArts9

<<<-- Originally posted by Craig Jones : Yes. I tried carefully and made sure I held the button for a long time. -->>>

Holding it down a long time LOCKS the control!

Try a brief push. Then adjust. Then press for 2 seconds.

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Mogg : Hi folks,

... the whites blow out easily.l -->>>

Exactly what you expect from a small 1/3-inch chip with over a million elements.

Try SPOTLIGHT to bias closed by 1-stop. Or, just use EC.

You must either control exposure or light.

The exposure control is locked out when S/A is enabled regardless of the duration or number of times I press it. The short-then-long doesn't work either.

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