I will start off with the disclaimer that a few weeks ago, I knew almost nothing about audio production when I started reading this forum. This is an amazing site and cannot thank everyone who contributes enough.

Our situation:
Right now we are trying to build out our equipment for an upcoming indie production and have run into a lot of challenges with our selection of audio gear. Our situation is as follows: we have a field team that consists of three relatively inexperienced people to handle audio and video for a cast of five. The content could most accurately be described as a sort of indie reality travel show.

We’ll be shooting with a pair of Z1Us, but are trying to identify a robust audio system to work with them. The real challenge here is that we will be in a series of foreign countries, with locations changing every 30-90 days, and all content being shipped back to a studio in New York for post production. We need a way to capture audio both indoors and outdoors, with a lot of the shots being conversation between 2-5 people.

To make things even more interesting, we’re on a budget and would prefer to spend less then 3k on our audio equipment.
Our research so far has seemed to indicate we need to shoot single system, which I know is not preferred but we have to ship all of our footage internationally on a weekly basis to a second team and really need to keep complexity to a minimum. And that we also need to accept we will not be able to field an array of audio capture devices, and need to focus on finding a (or pair) of good boomed pickup devices. Right now the best option I have seen from reading posts here is to go with a MKH-416 or CS-3e due to their ability to work in a range of situations.

I would welcome any and all feedback. Faced with these challenges what would you do?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

I'd hire a professional sound man and camera man or accept the job will probably go very wrong. Sorry but I work in the professional industry where these things matter.

Maybe you are in situation where you have no budget ... then why are you making the program? Is it for a student campus channel?

Sorry to be narky, it just sounds like a massive expedition with no budget. There is no short answer to your dilemma. The budget needs to be there to produce good work. So does the experience. Making quality TV is not easy and the skills took some people years to learn. Without that experience you will not create high quality footage easily.

Good luck though - sounds like you need it.

Oh and in answer to your question you will need a mixer feeding both cameras. Maybe a couple of the cheap Senheiser G2 radio mics and two second hand 416's or 415's from ebay. The T power models will be cheaper but then you will be forced to go via the mixer as the cameras will only do 48 volt phantom.

If your cameras split up then you wont have a man for the boom anyway as you only have one sound person.

Howabout 4 G2 kits and one 416 with boom and windshield kit and a cheap mixer.

$3000 aint much really.

I give up...

Maybe someone else can help.

I'll echo Jimmy's comments regarding your budget...time for a re-think on it. You need to at least double the amount you've mentioned and perhaps even triple it. I'd say you'll definitely need a mixer, and not just a bargain basement model. To simultaneously feed two cameras you should be looking at something like an SD442 - that's more than 2/3 your original budget right there. Add a 416 or CS3 with boom, shockmount, windscreen plus several lav's and wireless setups, perhaps a stick mic, as well as the required collection of cables, adapters, etc and you're north of 6 kilobucks and still climbing. The 416 is not the end-all and be-all and will likely leave something to be desired for interiors (the CS3 is more forgiving) so you may need to be looking at additional mics as well.

Adding a thought ... you said you'll need to ship your footage internationally once a week. That implies that you're not the one responsible for postproduction. If that's true, you really need to sit down with your editor and sound editor and coordinate with them the exact workflow that will be used and the delivery format that they'll need your originals to be in before making decisions such as single or double system recording, etc.

Wayne's comments following mine should also be given serious attention.

Oh and in answer to your question you will need a mixer feeding both cameras. Maybe a couple of the cheap Senheiser G2 radio mics and two second hand 416's or 415's from ebay. The T power models will be cheaper but then you will be forced to go via the mixer as the cameras will only do 48 volt phantom.

I don't know if people are aware, but PSC (and others) make a T-Power adapter that converts 48v to 12-T power.

Ironically, when I read this initially I was going to recommend you hire somebody, but then I seem to be doing that a lot, so I didn't in this case. However, since others have also recommended it, I'll second it. It's not that I don't want you to try to do audio, but really only people on set are truly required to have their own gear, the stead-cam operator and the sound mixer. In both cases to really do it properly, you need somebody experienced with the equipment. As much as I've worked with the Zaxcom Deva recorder, I certainly couldn't just walk up to a Aaton Cantar and start a session, and that's part of the reason it's required of us to own our equipment.

I will also say that just because you hire somebody who calls them self a sound mixer or sound recordist, doesn't mean they really are. Next weekend I'm helping some people I've done commercial work with previously, as they work on a short. We met a "sound mixer" at a local film meeting, after talking with him, I found he had little experience and little equipment. I mentioned the short and offered him the opportunity to work on it. Mainly because I know I can teach him things that have been passed on to me by experienced mixers (not that I have all the answers either). Owning the best equipment in the world and having little to no experience won't beat an experienced mixer with inferior equipment.

You can purchase a lot of equipment, but with your budget you're going to be forced to cut corners on audio and then nobody will be happy with the end result. Think about the end product and what your goal is with the end product. Chances are you probably would be better served hiring a mixer with equipment for the movie, either that or look in the used market for items and see what deals you can find.

Wayne

Indie Production? Locations changing every 30-90 days? Are you shooting every day? I don't understand the scenario.

You have enough cash to ship people to foreign countries but can't put more in the budget for gear? And I wouldn't recommend G2s for this type of gig either. Lectro's 'cause they're sturdier.

Don't forget insurance. That gear's gonna be used constantly and gonna be shipped all over the place. After you buy it, insure it. Something's bound to go wrong.

I do have to say I'm surprised that "a field team of three inexperienced people" are leading this project. Not meaning it to sound rude, it would just make me nervous. I'd hire THREE people who knew what they were doing, or at the very least ONE experienced person and pay them well to deal with the two or three who didn't know what they were doing.

Oh yeah, I've got one of those t-power adapters as well! Good point.

Ebay it is then for a 415t.

I'd hire THREE people who knew what they were doing, or at the very least ONE experienced person and pay them well to deal with the two or three who didn't know what they were doing.

Can I be two and three so I can make better money, but not have to think? :)

Regards,

Ty

Thanks for the all the advice. It looks like we are going to have quite the challenge on our hands.

I should add some additional details based on these comments. We will be using interns for a lot of our work, and as such realize we are making some quality sacrifices, but we simply do not have the budget to hire industry seasoned veterans to work on the shoot.

To Anna’s question we will be shooting everyday, and in a fairly dynamic documentary style that will prohibit a lot of setup for shots. Honestly we understand that our end production quality will not be what it could be with a fully experienced team, but since this is what we have to work with we are going to plan as much as we can to ensure we have the best shot possible of a reasonable end product.

Budget is something we can readjust – if we rule out hiring the crack team that this project could really use, then as I understand it so far the suggested load out would be:

CS-3e– $1350
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/406096-REG/Sanken_CS_3E_CS_3E_Short_Shotgun_Microphone.html

SD442 – $2495
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292986-REG/Sound_Devices_442N_442N_Portable_4_Channel.html

G2 Kit – $1249
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/424666-REG/Sennheiser__Evolution_G2_100_Series.html

G2 Lavs - $998 ($499x2)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/324242-REG/Sennheiser_EW112PG2_A_Evolution_G2_100_Series.html

+ Appropriate cables, batteries, boom pole, shock mount, windscreen and connectors

Is this more along the lines a reasonable solution to our situation (skilled operators aside)?

G2 kit comes with the lavs.

I'd seriously go with the Lectros if it's an everyday thing and you're all over the place. Just 'cause they're sturdier. But if you must go with the G2s then you must.

Are you getting the 442 just so you can connect to 2 cameras?

And I must comment on this scenario. It's productions like this that really mess things up. People who have the money to have an on going project for however many days, have a post team and a production team, can fly a crew all over the place and make weekly drop offs to headquarters chincing out on production. This is a classic example.

And yes, I have to give you some shit for this because it's f'ed up.

And yes, I've passed on projects like this before because they offered a ridiculously low rate, and yes I'd do it again. But you know what, there have been many times I've been called in because the last sound person they used was an idiot and they should've hired someone who knew what the hell they were doing.

And cheers Ty, me too!

Can I be two and three so I can make better money, but not have to think? :)

Regards,

Ty

With your resume you are more then welcome to any of the spots, just as long as you are willing to work for stock options in a startup.

G2 kit comes with the lavs.

I'd seriously go with the Lectros if it's an everyday thing and you're all over the place. Just 'cause they're sturdier. But if you must go with the G2s then you must.

Are you getting the 442 just so you can connect to 2 cameras?

The kit does come with a couple of G2s, but I wanted to get the total count up to 4.

The Lectros look great, but just beyond what we can afford for this setup.

As far as the 442 goes, I believe it was suggested to handle the boomed mic as well as the lavs. If there is a less expensive mixer that we could sub in here for the 442, as it accounts for a huge portion of our cost, that would be fantastic. At this point I am open to any and all suggestions.

Thanks everyone for your advice so far, its great.

442 definitely. I misread the gear list. Read like you were only using 3 channels. In that case I'd get the 302. If you want the 4th channel as well as other great features get the 442.

Just a couple of points from a "knows zilch":

1. If you're going to be "all over the shop" in "foreign countries", I can forsee quite a challenge with Wireless mic systems being either not compatible/ straight out illegal/ open to shed loads of interference wherever your chosen set happens to be. I don't have an answer, just pointing out the problem. If you get busted at Customs in the EU with illegal frequency radio gear, that's it, game over for the wireless system!

2. Given the "Amateur Night at the London Palladium" air of this event, perhaps give the 442 the flick and go for the Sign Video ENG - 44 instead. Heck, who's going to notice soundwise? Certainly notice it in your wallet.

3. If you're shooting NTSC in PAL land, indoors, be prepared for the dreaded "rolling line" due to fluoro flicker (50 - 60Hz etc). Just threw that in there as "foreign" is a bit vague (I live in "foreign").

4. Back to the point I made in (2), given the amateur nature (well, lets call a spade a spade here - hope you don't mind, I do amateur stuff all the time) why not drop your sights on the mic(s) as well, and go for the lowest common denominator setup that the experts here will agree is "passable". I don't think anything else is really possible here - anyone want to take up this point?

What does the team think?


CS

If you get busted at Customs in the EU with illegal frequency radio gear, that's it, game over for the wireless system!CS

Chris, never heard of this. Please school me.

Just a couple of points from a "knows zilch":

1. If you're going to be "all over the shop" in "foreign countries", I can forsee quite a challenge with Wireless mic systems being either not compatible/ straight out illegal/ open to shed loads of interference wherever your chosen set happens to be. I don't have an answer, just pointing out the problem. If you get busted at Customs in the EU with illegal frequency radio gear, that's it, game over for the wireless system!

2. Given the "Amateur Night at the London Palladium" air of this event, perhaps give the 442 the flick and go for the Sign Video ENG - 44 instead. Heck, who's going to notice soundwise? Certainly notice it in your wallet.

3. If you're shooting NTSC in PAL land, indoors, be prepared for the dreaded "rolling line" due to fluoro flicker (50 - 60Hz etc). Just threw that in there as "foreign" is a bit vague (I live in "foreign").

4. Back to the point I made in (2), given the amateur nature (well, lets call a spade a spade here - hope you don't mind, I do amateur stuff all the time) why not drop your sights on the mic(s) as well, and go for the lowest common denominator setup that the experts here will agree is "passable". I don't think anything else is really possible here - anyone want to take up this point?

What does the team think?


CS

Thanks for comments, I have no problem with the amateur tag as I certainly do not get paid for this (yet!).

I would be really curious to hear more specifics about the illegal frequency issues. We do not plan on shooting much in the EU, but I would want to avoid a similar situation somewhere else.

Thanks for the Sign Video 44 suggestion, that looks like a great alternative to the 442, and it seems like people have had good experiences with it.

I apologize for the foreign comment - we will be shooting all over SE Asia to start and possibly moving on to India and eastern Europe.

Can you recommend some "passable" mics that will serve the roles of the CS-3e and G2 kits? I have not really seen anything lauded as a great all around mic lower then the 416. I am also curious if they is a favorite choice for those that cannot afford the G2 kits, as the next tier down from those might work for us as well.

Tom please stop right there.

Think about 3 months from now where y'all will be shooting everyday and really starting to get a handle on the equipment. I'm forever the optimist so I'm assuming the more you work on the shoot and get feedback from your editors the stronger you'll get in the field.

Assuming this is correct you'll soon be growing tired of the Sign Video and wish you had the 442.

The G2 is the lowest priced wireless system I'd recommend.

Please don't take my comments out of context, they were meant in a "loving and caring way" and were not intended as a dig at either yourself or your enteprise, just in case that's the way it came across.

1. The issues with wireless are immense. Depending on where on the planet you go, they either:

a) Do not give a shit as long as you're spending money, illegal is all the rage.

b) Don't tell, don't ask, but if it all goes tits up, it's you're fault - watch out!

c) This is definately a serious "No - No" and they will confiscate non - compliant gear at Customs, and even make you pay a fine, if they are so minded (this is to be avoided at all costs, if possible).

My crack about " foreign" was about the fact that "foreign" in States speak is Canada.

Hardly "foreign".

If you're going seriously "up country' - Nepal (bandit country), India ( just as bad for "pro" videographers"), South America (no experience but expect the worst), Africa: Hey, what do you expect!....................


You may see where I'm coming from.

As for recommending "passable" I will leave that to the "committee" who have infinately more experience in these matters than me, I hope they will chime in soon.


CS

Not sure what happened, but some posts in the thread just simply didn't appear on my system............till now. Yours was one.

The EU (European Union) has developed a pretty tight policy with radio gear for use within it's extended borders. You can (and will) be stopped at Customs if you are carrying any radio transmitting equipment, and will be grilled as to it's frequencies and legality for use in the EU (or that part thereof).

Some countries have a pretty laid back attitude, some don't, some are just plain evil, depending on the weather, time of day, shift pattern of Customs and just plain 'ol bad luck.

This is a "worst case" scenario. This all stems from the number of bods arriving from the States (in particular) with gear that operates on totally illegal frequencies in the UK and other EU countries, and the relevant governments attempts to stamp it out.

That this has anything to do with the totally illegal trade in "radar gun" detectors (banned practically everywhere in the EU) is neither here nor there (but, sadly, true!).

The point of my post was this: As "foreign" wasn't detailed, and I have quite a bit of experience of said "foreign", to warn about a blithe "it'll be all right on the night" attitude to taking radio gear across country borders.

It could be even worse. They didn't spend all that money on luggage scanners just to keep out terrorists you know - ooooh no, they're catching a shed load of bods they didn't catch before, for all sorts of stuff, .........cos they can see everything in your luggage!

Now, as to your comment about the 422/ ENG 44 - what can I say? If you can shed any more light on this expedition than I can already see, please do.

But from where I'm sitting (40 rows back, behind a pillar and an extremely large lady with a big floral hat) the 422 is so "overkill" as to be almost laughable. However, I shall bow to your infinite better wisdom and demure from further comment. Just trying to help.


CS

And I must comment on this scenario. It's productions like this that really mess things up. People who have the money to have an on going project for however many days, have a post team and a production team, can fly a crew all over the place and make weekly drop offs to headquarters chincing out on production. This is a classic example.

And yes, I have to give you some shit for this because it's f'ed up.

And yes, I've passed on projects like this before because they offered a ridiculously low rate, and yes I'd do it again. But you know what, there have been many times I've been called in because the last sound person they used was an idiot and they should've hired someone who knew what the hell they were doing.




Got to agree with Anna. Your project is not something I see as good for the world of TV.
Cheapens it to be honest and without meaning to be negative to you, I do feel that you deserve to make a right mess of it. Not because you are a bad person, just because you are seriously undervaluing the art of technical TV.

I also would not want to touch this project with a barge pole.

Nothing personal though.

Oh and I would get a cheap mixer if I was you. The SD442 is beyond your budget and needs. Again second hand ebay.

Anna really has a good point and because of that I will refrain from wishing you good luck on this as you are undermining quality standards by attempting this.

Regards none the less.

Unfortunately, they use radio spectrum differently than we do in the US. In the worst of cases, if your gear doesn't get stolen, it will be confiscated by the authorities. In this case, confiscated means you won't get it back.

Unfortunately, because you are in violation of laws you did not know existed, you will not be given the choice of regular or decaf, or cold or unbearably hot when they serve you the coffee enema to punish you for your crime.

Please do your family a favor and make out a will before you leave.

For other anecdotal information, some of which may be less more optimistic, ask the question on rec.arts.motion.picture.sound

Regards,

Ty Ford

Been trying to remember the proper name for the blanket customs registration you should obtain before leaving and I'm having a senior moment ... it's "Carte something." It registers your gear and carries a bond that you'll be taking it out of the country at the end of your shoot so you don't have to pay import duties each time you cross a border.

Been trying to remember the proper name for the blanket customs registration you should obtain before leaving

ATA Carnets -- http://www.merchandisepassport.org

This is only good for certain countries (none in Africa or South America from what I recall)...

Wayne

In some countries you mentioned (Nepal, India), shooting professional video means journalist visas (takes months to get), liason officer from the government to oversee your shooting, and post sensorship of all footage. Yes, you have to pay all the expences.

That does not mean it can not be done if you can get your gear over the border. Better appear touristy and as innocent home video enthusiasts if the police start to question you, anywhere.

Do not present yourselves as a video crew at the customs, travel separatelly, some are video shooters, some others collect bird sounds, just happen to be on the same flight...

Chris as far as other mixers I'd say the PSC Alpha mix. Haven't used it myself but know a few sound guys who have it and offer it in their package. I'm assuming it's 'cause it's cheaper and they needed a 4 channel package right quick. The downside to that mixer is that it takes NP-1 batteries so you could easily go through 2 of those in one day. The Wendt has a 4 channel model that takes 6 AA batteries, I don't like their meters. I'm not gonna talk about the tech specs and all that.

Chris and Wayne thanks for the info on the customs thing. Honestly if I were to take a gig in Africa or anywhere else I'm getting the production company to rent out the gear. Chances are I'm gonna need more than I have in my kit anyway and/or everything's fully insured.

Only thing that sucks about renting gear is that there's always something missing or something - no matter how small - that's not working right.

And the production company takes care of all the visas, customs annoyances and all that.

P.S. I love the thought of getting a carnet for Ringling Brothers tigers. Did you see that?

...
P.S. I love the thought of getting a carnet for Ringling Brothers tigers. Did you see that?


I flashed on a baggage claim area filled with hundreds of large pet carriers, each holding a member of the New York Philharmonic!
!

The Wendt has a 4 channel model that takes 6 AA batteries, I don't like their meters. I'm not gonna talk about the tech specs and all that.
....
Chris and Wayne thanks for the info on the customs thing. Honestly if I were to take a gig in Africa or anywhere else I'm getting the production company to rent out the gear.

I use to own the Wendt X2 and X4. I hated the X2's LED meters. No matter what setting you were in, the LEDs were too bright. Depending on what meters you had on the X4, that could make a difference (they offer VU and PPM meters). I had the VU meters and never had issues with them.

I am actually in the negotiation stages with a producer that I've worked with before who wants me to go to Kenya for a documentary... thus the ONLY reason I know anything about carnets! We want to stick to the same equipment we use here in the US, so I'm trying to determine if I go cheap here in the US and don't use the Deva 5.8, or take the Deva to Kenya... I have similar concerns with another producer who wants me to go on a documentary in the Andes (that production scares me more than the Kenya production).

Wayne

If you're working with that many channels then sure bring the Deva. But are you really? On a Doc?

If you're working with that many channels then sure bring the Deva. But are you really? On a Doc?

I use it all the time regardless of situation. It came in quite handy on a National Geographic doc, so yes I am seriously considering it.

Wayne

actually coming in at the end... you're not even considering backup gear ! if you really have the inexperienced doing this, they will bust it sooner or later... even pro's do, just far less often. where will you get a spare ? fedex ? (nope) you also need backup gear. FWIW, there is a reason they make 5 and 6 channel mixers - its for reality shows where everyone has a lav wireless on. barring that, the mixbus connector to combine 2 mixers, but thats a lot of weight. either way, you have pretty much set up yourself up for a disaster by not having all the details worked out. you just can't show up in another country and shoot at a pro level and not know anything, its NOT the US. I can't say enough that the most important thing is to hire at least one local for every location. that alone can fix so many problems. your best bet may be to rent locally wireless mics from a local co. then you solved a big chunk of your problems... or do the reasearch for every country you plan to travel to and maybe you get lucky there is a wireless unit that will be ok everywhere, but I truely doubt that will happen.

if you have the cash to send people around the world for 3 months, maybe you should scale back the amount of travel time, and instead take the same cash and use if to properly produce the project with decent people including a production manager/ co-ordinator who knows who to manage international work because its clear you really haven't thought this out. I've walked away from trainwreck gigs like this....

Steve Oakley

I use it all the time regardless of situation. It came in quite handy on a National Geographic doc, so yes I am seriously considering it.

Wayne

I hear you on that, though if I had a Deva I'd only pull it out when the occasion called for it. It's such an expensive unit. But if the production co will pay you for using it then hells yeah.

The most I've used is 6 independent channels and with that I rented a PD6 just 'cause. I know it doesn't compare by a long shot.

I hear you on that, though if I had a Deva I'd only pull it out when the occasion called for it. It's such an expensive unit. But if the production co will pay you for using it then hells yeah.

I come from the music side of things. I bought a Deva IV 3.5 years ago to record music on-location with, as I moved into film and video I simply continued using it (including over the shoulder in a harness). Last month I bought a Deva 5.8. To be honest with you, I don't even consider the cost anymore. It's simply my tool of choice.

Wayne

To be honest I have been a little surprised at some of the feedback I have gotten here. I tried to be upfront about my lack of experience and the budget nature of this production, but I do not think that came across clearly.

We can afford to have a post team because it’s a combination of unpaid interns and people who are working with deferred pay because they believe in the project. We can afford to fly around the world because we’re paying for it out of pocket, working local jobs and pooling our money.

This is a low budget indie project made by inexperienced people who are doing it out of passion and belief in it.

I realized that there are a lot of serious professionals here, but it’s a little disappointing that there is so much criticism here that seems to stem simply from the fact that this is a low budget indie project. I figure we all have to start somewhere.

I am more then willing to accept its status as the most obvious in its inevitability trainwreck to ever hit these forums as long as we’re willing to drop that as a point of discussion.

The feedback from those of you who are trying to help out has been valuable and appreciated.

I am really just looking for gear advice in a challenging situation.

... you also need backup gear. FWIW, there is a reason they make 5 and 6 channel mixers - its for reality shows where everyone has a lav wireless on. barring that, the mixbus connector to combine 2 mixers, but thats a lot of weight. either way, you have pretty much set up yourself up for a disaster by not having all the details worked out. you just can't show up in another country and shoot at a pro level and not know anything, its NOT the US. I can't say enough that the most important thing is to hire at least one local for every location. that alone can fix so many problems. your best bet may be to rent locally wireless mics from a local co. then you solved a big chunk of your problems... or do the reasearch for every country you plan to travel to and maybe you get lucky there is a wireless unit that will be ok everywhere, but I truely doubt that will happen.


Screw backup gear for now dude. If they buy new stuff and sturdy stuff they won't have to worry about it for a while.

I would've said rent wireless but honestly if they're shooting in one place for 30-60 days at a time they might as well buy.

I've seen 5-6 channel mixers but honestly with that many channels you'd need some more separation especially with the run and gun type stuff they're doing. I'd say two 3 channel mixers going to separate cameras and you're fine if that's what you're dealing with. Reading through the gear list, I doubt that's what they're going for though.

Hiring one local is a great idea. I don't think they want that though.

Research definitely. Not only frequencies but also have a list of local rental houses and/or gear shops and if those don't exist where you're going, the closest production companies.

And Tom don't expect to get all support and no opinion on this forum. You want the advice you gotta take a little of our shit with it.

It does seem a little strange to me that you're risking your audio in exchange for exotic locations.

I'd be more inclined to drop one of the less obvious locations (Eastern Europe maybe?) for somewhere more local and use the saved money to sort out your audio issues.

But that's just my thoughts and to be honest I don't really have a leg to stand on as my next projects audio setup is gonna be not much more than two paper cups connected with a piece of string. But hey ho.

To be honest I have been a little surprised at some of the feedback I have gotten here. I tried to be upfront about my lack of experience and the budget nature of this production, but I do not think that came across clearly.

We can afford to have a post team because it’s a combination of unpaid interns and people who are working with deferred pay because they believe in the project. We can afford to fly around the world because we’re paying for it out of pocket, working local jobs and pooling our money.

This is a low budget indie project made by inexperienced people who are doing it out of passion and belief in it.

I realized that there are a lot of serious professionals here, but it’s a little disappointing that there is so much criticism here that seems to stem simply from the fact that this is a low budget indie project. I figure we all have to start somewhere.

I am more then willing to accept its status as the most obvious in its inevitability trainwreck to ever hit these forums as long as we’re willing to drop that as a point of discussion.

The feedback from those of you who are trying to help out has been valuable and appreciated.

I am really just looking for gear advice in a challenging situation.

Tom, no one is putting you down for working low budget. What all the comments are aimed at is helping you adjust your priorities so that you actually bring home the production you're paying for, helping you avoid the pitfalls that will bring your project to its knees and leave you with no cash and no program. For instance, you mentioned you have a budget of $3000 for audio and are planning to take 2 Z1Us. It's not putting down low budget to suggest you might be better served by shifting the cost of one of those cameras over to audio and taking 1 camera and $6000 in audio gear. Or even better served by not buying any audio gear at all and putting the money saved into hiring an experienced hand who brings $25000 worh of personally owned gear to the shoot as part of his day-rate. The objective of your plan has got to be to bring home a 100% professional appearing and sounding, SALEABLE, production and not just providing an exciting adventure for the production team and job experience for a bunch of "interns." You have to do whatever it takes to make sure that every dollar you spend ends up in the eyes and ears of the audience and the majority of comments have been attempts to help you best do just that. The gear you choose is only a tool.

Years of experience in economics and project management has taught me that your approach of "We have about $3000 to spend on audio, what can we get?" is the wrong approach. That's top-down budgeting and for a project that's not really a budget at all - it's a distribution of anticipated revenues. Successful projects approach the budget from the bottom up - "Here's what we'll need in order to do the job properly, now where can we find the money?" If doing the job properly requires $3000, that's your budget. If doing it properly will cost $15000, that's too is your budget regardless of how much cash you have on hand at the moment and if you don't happen to have it in the bank, the first phase of the project will be to raise the required capital. But if you do it improperly in order to save money, every penny spent will be a total waste because you won't end up with a successful project in the end. And throwing money down a hole with nothing coming back in return is the biggest budget enterprise of all.

Steve you said a mouthful and said it well.

Didn't want to say this but hell here goes...

Tom, maybe you should shoot a pilot version to shop around or at least have some test runs before you go for the whole shebang. You never know who'll drop out after the first batch of edits. I'm speaking for both the production and post production side of things.

It's happened before where a team of newbies shot a pilot that got picked up by a TV station and a production company was born. At least then you'll have more of a budget and won't have to worry about working odd jobs in foreign countries just to fund the project.

Tom, no one is putting you down for working low budget. What all the comments are aimed at is helping you adjust your priorities so that you actually bring home the production you're paying for, helping you avoid the pitfalls that will bring your project to its knees and leave you with no cash and no program. For instance, you mentioned you have a budget of $3000 for audio and are planning to take 2 Z1Us. It's not putting down low budget to suggest you might be better served by shifting the cost of one of those cameras over to audio and taking 1 camera and $6000 in audio gear. Or even better served by not buying any audio gear at all and putting the money saved into hiring an experienced hand who brings $25000 worh of personally owned gear to the shoot as part of his day-rate. The objective of your plan has got to be to bring home a 100% professional appearing and sounding, SALEABLE, production and not just providing an exciting adventure for the production team and job experience for a bunch of "interns." You have to do whatever it takes to make sure that every dollar you spend ends up in the eyes and ears of the audience and the majority of comments have been attempts to help you best do just that. The gear you choose is only a tool.

Years of experience in economics and project management has taught me that your approach of "We have about $3000 to spend on audio, what can we get?" is the wrong approach. That's top-down budgeting and for a project that's not really a budget at all - it's a distribution of anticipated revenues. Successful projects approach the budget from the bottom up - "Here's what we'll need in order to do the job properly, now where can we find the money?" If doing the job properly requires $3000, that's your budget. If doing it properly will cost $15000, that's too is your budget regardless of how much cash you have on hand at the moment and if you don't happen to have it in the bank, the first phase of the project will be to raise the required capital. But if you do it improperly in order to save money, every penny spent will be a total waste because you won't end up with a successful project in the end. And throwing money down a hole with nothing coming back in return is the biggest budget enterprise of all.


Thanks Steve, this is well put and makes a lot of sense.

I certainly have to acknowledge that the bottom up funding arroach delivers much better results as a general tool for project managment. However in our case I was just trying to reel in what I am assume could be a pretty "sky's the limit" kind of number.

It is good though to know that we have severely underestimated the scope of what was necessary to deliver good sound on the project. Now we can step back and say if we need to mic all five people and boom everything, where can we find there resources to make that happen. The number and gravity of concerns expressed are certainly something for us to look at.

Thanks Steve, this is well put and makes a lot of sense.

I certainly have to acknowledge that the bottom up funding arroach delivers much better results as a general tool for project managment. However in our case I was just trying to reel in what I am assume could be a pretty "sky's the limit" kind of number.

It is good though to know that we have severely underestimated the scope of what was necessary to deliver good sound on the project. Now we can step back and say if we need to mic all five people and boom everything, where can we find there resources to make that happen. The number and gravity of concerns expressed are certainly something for us to look at.


Don't feel bad - underestimating the cost of obtaining excellent sound and the importance of having it is a very common occurance. Your audience will forgive marginal picture in many cases but they positively won't forgive marginal sound. It's not at all uncommon for the audio kit to run double or more the cost of the camera and lighting kit.

Don't feel bad - underestimating the cost of obtaining excellent sound and the importance of having it is a very common occurance. Your audience will forgive marginal picture in many cases but they positively won't forgive marginal sound. It's not at all uncommon for the audio kit to run double or more the cost of the camera and lighting kit.

Its great to know I am not the only one to run into this problem before. Makes me feel a little less silly.

As to the gear setup, if we assume that we do our homework with frequencies and customs - does getting a G2 on the 4 or 5 central people with a CS-3 or 416 overhead make reasonable sense? And if so, should we be looking at splitting the inputs between cameras or just running them all into a large mixer? It seems like both would have their own challenges.

...
As to the gear setup, if we assume that we do our homework with frequencies and customs - does getting a G2 on the 4 or 5 central people with a CS-3 or 416 overhead make reasonable sense? ...

Alas, no, not A G2. 4 or 5 G2's, one hidden on each person, would work. A hypercardioid on a boom (or two boomed mics) operated by someone who can swing it to follow the conversation would work. But 1 lav mic for a group or trying to mix a lav or 2 with a boom is going to be pretty iffy. And note I said a hypercardioid - note Ty and Anna's comments on the 416 indoors - a short gun is fine for outdoors or on a soundstage but not so good indoors in a normal environment. I understand the CS3 is a bit more forgiving indoors but still not optimum.

well more to the point, booming 5 people talking at the same time using a hypercardiod isn't the best thing in the world if they are randomly talking. no matter how fast the boom op is, if they have to go from one end to the other something will get missed. Cardoid mic will do better, be more forgiving.

I'm really thinking, loose the boom altogether and just go with a wireless lav on each person. In fact, though some others may disagree, you may be better off to use 4 wireless, and put 2 receivers on each camera. I've done plenty of ENG work like this. The camera ops _must_ pay attention to what they are doing with audio levels, but its certainly workable.I shot for years and years and never had an audio mixer and got sound that was fine with wireless gear mounted on the camera. that me though, and not your ops who don't have the experience... yet! However, a big benefit is that each mic will now be on its own channel so if you get a RF hit, not such a big deal. You also loose the tether between the 2 cams and mixer which will make the entire shooting experience much more low profile.

also another reason to loose the boompole is potential phasing when mixed with the lavs. an _exepianced_ mixer will hear it immediately, some one who isn't won't... and you'll then have thin sound with swishing in it.

last, you could find 4 used lectros for around $3200 which is your original budget. that would be body pak, receiver, _maybe_ as lav included.

also I'd look at rechargeable 9V lithium bats. not cheap, but once you start blowing thru 9V's it becomes far far cheaper to use the rechargables. Also consider that 9V's may not be readily available in some places.

Steve Oakley

I just wanted to add something. I've been on tons of shoots where the production team short changed audio. It's hell when that happens. I've worked on a production (for TV mind you) that had only one mic (ME66) and 2 G2 lavs that at any given time would break down from poor handling from the actors and the regular crew. They refused my advice and all I could do is shrug it off and work with it the best I could.

Another doosey: I'm called in last minute and find out the DP handled the rental of audio gear. I was stuck using a 416 in a very live room with a crappy mixer.

One of my all time favs was when the production company rented a completely wireless audio setup, including wireless to camera and we were sent off to shoot at an airport and in a limo through tunnels.

Lesson to you, and you're doing a good thing by asking for advice from people on this forum, think about your shooting scenarios and cover your ass.

And please have a good post guy on your team!

As a field recordist I don't believe in the "we'll fix it in post" mentality and nobody really does. It's just something people say when they feel helpless.

Anna is giving excellent advice when she suggests test runs (aka rehearsal). Take your cast and crew out into Seattle (where you can rent equip. to try) and do a version of what you will be doing abroad and see if you can make it all work up to a production standard you are happy with, or, if you aren't happy with it, use the test run to troubleshoot and work out all kinks. If you can't make it work at home chances are it ain't going to work in Tuva.

well more to the point, booming 5 people talking at the same time using a hypercardiod isn't the best thing in the world if they are randomly talking. no matter how fast the boom op is, if they have to go from one end to the other something will get missed. Cardoid mic will do better, be more forgiving.

I'm really thinking, loose the boom altogether and just go with a wireless lav on each person. In fact, though some others may disagree, you may be better off to use 4 wireless, and put 2 receivers on each camera. I've done plenty of ENG work like this. The camera ops _must_ pay attention to what they are doing with audio levels, but its certainly workable.I shot for years and years and never had an audio mixer and got sound that was fine with wireless gear mounted on the camera. that me though, and not your ops who don't have the experience... yet! However, a big benefit is that each mic will now be on its own channel so if you get a RF hit, not such a big deal. You also loose the tether between the 2 cams and mixer which will make the entire shooting experience much more low profile.

also another reason to loose the boompole is potential phasing when mixed with the lavs. an _exepianced_ mixer will hear it immediately, some one who isn't won't... and you'll then have thin sound with swishing in it.

last, you could find 4 used lectros for around $3200 which is your original budget. that would be body pak, receiver, _maybe_ as lav included.

also I'd look at rechargeable 9V lithium bats. not cheap, but once you start blowing thru 9V's it becomes far far cheaper to use the rechargables. Also consider that 9V's may not be readily available in some places.

Steve Oakley

I will look into a cardiod mic (any suggestions?), as forgiving sounds like exactly what we need. I also like the idea of just going with the lavs in some situations. I think we are going to find ourselves in enough challenging spots that it wouldn't hurt to have a options for the way we handle the shot, even if it costs us more now.

Going with used lectros (or G2s), a boom/cardiod setup, and a 4 channel field mixer is beyond the 3k I had hoped to spend, but not outside the realm of possibility. It would hopefully also give us some flexibility, and be well worth the cost.

I have to say I have a new appreciation for the complexity and importance of good audio.

Going with used lectros (or G2s), a boom/cardiod setup, and a 4 channel field mixer is beyond the 3k I had hoped to spend, but not outside the realm of possibility. It would hopefully also give us some flexibility, and be well worth the cost.

Here is another idea that you could test locally first. Rent two booms and two mics. Have two people operate these. Just like in basketball or football, have zones for each boom op. This way they only have to concentrate on a couple of people not the entire group. You can also try two things. First try a mixer (rent one), use it to explore options with two boom ops. Second, try without the mixer. Put one boom into CH1, the other into CH2. See how this works for you.

Here's the thing, if you really do this, you should have two people who can boom, and since people are doing this for the art and not for the money, then you will have two people who will volunteer to boom. If you really do this for the amount of time you mentioned, the boom ops will get pretty good at watching people and noticing the clues on who is going to speak (unless this is all scripted in which case they should know in advance), and so using a dual boom might just work for you and keep you on budget depending on the route you choose. The big bonus is you don't have to worry about the whole RF/Wireless rules in various countries.

Anyhow, just some additional food for thought.

Wayne

If you are shooting in questionable circumstances (legal, permit or safety reasons) booms are not possible...

Here is another idea that you could test locally first. Rent two booms and two mics. ...

Exactly what I was thinking in my note a few posts above. And I've been assuming it's scripted or at least reasonably predictable as to who will be speaking next to a pair of boom ops would be able to coordinate their aim. If, as Steve Oakley mentioned, it's just a group jabbering at random then all bets are off for booms. Not sure I'd agree with his suggestion to use a cardioid mic though. Most cardioids have working distances so close that you'd need to be almost hitting the cast on the tops of their heads with the mics to be close enough to get anything worth using. Couple that with their lack of off-axis rejection and you're going to inviting lots of headaches (if you excuse the term :>)

If, as Steve Oakley mentioned, it's just a group jabbering at random then all bets are off for booms. Not sure I'd agree with his suggestion to use a cardioid mic though. Most cardioids have working distances so close that you'd need to be almost hitting the cast on the tops of their heads with the mics to be close enough to get anything worth using. Couple that with their lack of off-axis rejection and you're going to inviting lots of headaches (if you excuse the term :>)

This is how I started thinking about it... two people splitting things up into zones and using either hypercards or better yet short guns with wider than normal patterns (think NTG-1/-2). Now, Petri has a good point about booms and legality, but just the other day I received a flyer for Lightwave Audio's new G5 boom pole. It's an 8 foot (~ 2.5 m) pole that has 5 sections that breaks down. I'm sure it's not cheap... is any boom pole cheap???, but it the kicker is a total break down of the pole. So, you might be able to use something like this.

If you're going to be a guerilla film team, and work without permits, you're going to have to think in guerilla terms... painter poles, heck maybe even pieces of wood with camps for the mics. None of these are pretty, but based on what I've heard so far, this seems to be the direction of this production.

Wayne

With your resume you are more then welcome to any of the spots, just as long as you are willing to work for stock options in a startup.

Dear Tom,

I'm not smart enough to know how to eat stock options, deposit them in the bank or pay the gas and electric bill with them. :)

Regards,

Ty Ford

This is how I started thinking about it... two people splitting things up into zones and using either hypercards or better yet short guns with wider than normal patterns (think NTG-1/-2). Now, Petri has a good point about booms and legality, but just the other day I received a flyer for Lightwave Audio's new G5 boom pole. It's an 8 foot (~ 2.5 m) pole that has 5 sections that breaks down. I'm sure it's not cheap... is any boom pole cheap???, but it the kicker is a total break down of the pole. So, you might be able to use something like this.

If you're going to be a guerilla film team, and work without permits, you're going to have to think in guerilla terms... painter poles, heck maybe even pieces of wood with camps for the mics. None of these are pretty, but based on what I've heard so far, this seems to be the direction of this production.

Wayne

Some of it will have to be guerilla, without permits, etc, but we're also going to run into situations were we need to muster up all the legitimacy we can. And nothing says professional crew like a boom.

Based on what I've read so far we're going to need two setups - one with wireless lavs (if we can get them into the country), and one with a boom.

While we can move some money around to get extra budget for sound, we won't be ending up with an extra person for sound. If we had to boom the group with a single mic is our best bet to try and deal with the "headaches" (so to speak) of a cardiod, or is it a loosing battle?