Hi

I am looking to upgrade my HDV editing system at a moderate cost - say equivalent to US1500 aprox. At the same time I want to solve some of the problems I never really overcame with my previous system - in particular effective monitoring out of Premiere.

My camera is a Sony HVR Z1P however I may in the next couple of years upgrade to the new EX1.

I have been using Aspect but I will probably upgrade to Prospect HD to allow better headroom for color correction.

I really do not know much about hardware configuration so I want a simple solution.

On the monitoring front I would like to be able to run a single widescreen LCD for my main PC display plus a single HD TV monitor able to run HD video from the timeline out of Premiere. Would something like the NVidia 8800GT be a suitable choice? Am I still going to have problems with the paused video displaying differently from the played video which I gather was a fault in my existing NVidia graphics card?

On the HD video monitoring front I have read suggestions that a 1900 x 1200 PC LCD will do. Perhaps this is a relict of now outdated experience from the past but surely TV colorspace is quite different from PC colorspace, in particular TV having much more extreme contrast, so that color balancing within a PC colorspace will blow all the highlights and dark areas when displayed on a TV. Cost constraints mean that I will still have to color balance using an ordinary HDTV monitor but is that not still a better choice rather than running an ordinary second LCD monitor.

Any suggestions on processor and motherboard?

Any help much appreciated. I live in New Zealand so solutions will have to be not too recent and not too exotic.

Andrew Hall

The Intel Core2 Q6600 2.4 Ghz Quad core is a good mid range solution. I can't recommend a Geforce8 Card if you want fullscreen video overlay for monitoring, but the color shift problem has been solved. You need a Geforce7 card, or a Quadro Card, or and ATI card in order to utilize Prospect's accelerated fullscreen output to a secondary display.

Hi Mike

I rather hoped you would respond, I have been reading your articles on your website which are very interesting and informative.

Can you explain to me about monitoring - when does an external monitor display in PC colorspace and when does it display in TV colorspace or is this a non issue?

Also what would be your preference amongst the cards you mention?

Thanks a lot

Andrew

The color space issue can be tricky, but it is a calibration issue. PC monitors can closely approximate REC.709 HD color space when properly calibrated, assuming you have a decent LCD display. (No discount 6bit panels)

For the cards, that depends on a number of things. Do you need HDCP compatibility for HDDVD and BluRay playback. Do you need a powerful card for any 3D work? Any limits based on how you plan to color correct? (Magic Bullet is said to work better on certain cards) ATI doesn't allow spanning like Nvidia, but that doesn't seem to be an issue for you. If you use Prospect or Aspect, the no Geforce8 limit is pretty significant.

Getting a 7600GT should be fine if you have no other requirements or limitations.

Thanks again Mike. So with a second monitor I can choose a color profile to match REC.709 and it will show video in TV colors? If so great.

But as an alternative, can I output to a good LCD TV anyway - might be useful in my cramped workspace.

"Do you need HDCP compatibility for HDDVD and BluRay playback. "

Sounds like this would be useful, although my main thought has simply been I need to be able write to one of HDDVD or BluRay (which of these do you feel is the better choice), and once done then I am set as far as PC based work.

3D - no.

I plan to correct color within Premiere Pro using the Aspect / Prosepct real-time filters. Nothing fancy at all.

On the CPU front I have found:

Intel Core 2 Quad Q6700 Processor 2.660Ghz LGA775 8M Cache NZ$700

Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Processor 2.40Ghz G0 Stepping $NZ400

Cost-wise either of these looks ok.

Andrew

Cineform's CCR is limited but very fast. Not limit there besides no GF8. I am not sure if there are HDCP compatible Geforce7 Cards. The 7950GT is the only one I can find right now that does. ATI should work fine for you if you can't get a 7950GT. The x1#00 series or above should be fine. If you get one with HDMI out, you can even hook it directly to a consumer HDTV. And you should be able to use that to watch HighDef discs if you get a burner for your system. No comment on the HD vs BR thing besides that I have a BluRay writer for EncoreCS3, but have had no successful discs yet.

"I have a BluRay writer for EncoreCS3, but have had no successful discs yet."

Hmm, that is interesting. Have there been problems?

I have been having issues, but haven't had time to narrow it down. Not sure if it is the burner or the player or Encore or what. I uploaded new firmware to the burner. Just one more thing on the 2Do list.

As a matter of interest why is the 8800GT not suitable?

I have been looking at the 7950GT and it seems that while some have a passive cooling system, the ones I have found available in NZ so far all have big fans on them. I have a strong preference for quiet systems.

Other than that the 7950GT looks good. Does it matter much which make is chosen?

Andrew

Ahhh, I just read a thread in the Premiere forum - so Prospect appears not to like the 8800GT, but apparently Aspect + Premiere is OK. Is this correct?

Andrew

No, my understanding is that Cineform in general does not play well with the card. The card disabled hardware overlay for external monitoring, if you are using another card, such as an Aja, for preview purposes, or not using external monitoring, it shouldn't matter to you.

But the card's disabled hardware overlay means that in Vista (you can do a workaround to get it kind-of working in XP) you will not be able to preview to an external monitor.

Carl

Yes the GeForce8 series has issues with fullscreen hardware overlay. This is what Cineform uses to give you a fullscreen preview on your second monitor. So I would avoid the Geforce8 series, and yes, they are the most powerful cords on the market by a long shot. You don't need the power, you need the features. (RGB and YUV overlay, HDCP, Dual DVI, maybe HDMI, etc.)

Sorry to keep harping on. Last time I built my system I didn't keep asking the questions and I ended up with something that did not do what I wanted. I am trying to avoid that this time.

I am using XP so is the 7950 still the right choice.

Mike, where you say "you need the features. (RGB and YUV overlay, HDCP, Dual DVI, maybe HDMI, etc.)" is that in relation to the 8800 or the 7950.

Incidentally how are you approaching this issue for yourself Mike, do you use full screen external monitoring?

Andrew

The ATI HD 2000 pro series of cards will support hardware overlay via both DVI ports (I have the HD2600 Pro AGP 512MB). The latest catalyst software (ATI's control panel software), supports extended, clone and spanning desktops. Including a "theater" mode which is the same as Nvidia's full screen video overlay on second monitor feature.

The HD cards also have dedicated audio hardware, and with an adaptor, you can convert a DVI port to an HDMI with the audio stream included. These cards are primarily targeted for HD home theater enthusiast.

It's put new life into an old workstation otherwise destined for the dump. Not to mention that my game play now allows me to crank up Call of duty 4 to the maximum settings, including all the eye candy such as DOF, glow, etc.

I do get decent video overlay for editing with prospect HD projects, but this is an old 3GHz Dual Xeon workstation, and with a 7505 chipset with a lowely 533MHz FSB. That is, my editing preview is limited by the chipset and not the GPU. Otherwise, it's comparable to an old QuadroFX 1000 it replaced.

The ATI supports directX 10, shader model 4, and plays well with Lightwave 3d v9.3 Not too bad an upgrade for only $99.

It's unfortunate that Nvidia limits (via drivers) upper end features in their game cards that your adverage ATI will support right out of the box.

I currently have an 8800GTX, and I get no fullscreen overlay. I have a 30" LCD though, so I can get Pixel for pixel within a GUI window if desired. I have a Quadro3400 I can swap back in if needed, that should support the overlay.
At work, I use AJA Xena cards for fullscreen output, with SDI->DVI convertors.

Xena is the way to go, I have that and a QuadroFX 3450 in the studio.

While on the subject, I also have a Dell Latitude D630 notebook with Dual-core T7500 and 340MB integrated Intel graphics GPU. It supports overlay to an external monitor at HD resolution, and I can edit four-layers of 1080i cineform HD without a hiccup. Not too shabby, (I can now edit in the hotel room). However, it's not a game machine. Which makes a point that in video editing, overlay is the most important feature and you don't need a high end card to get it.

overlay is the most important feature and you don't need a high end card to get it.

I would echo that. I have a sub-$80US, passive-heatsink 7600GS that works just fine with CS3 and AspectHD5 .... driving a 22" monitor by DVI plus an LCD HDTV via its component output.

Xena is the way to go, I have that and a QuadroFX 3450 in the studio.

While on the subject, I also have a Dell Latitude D630 notebook with Dual-core T7500 and 340MB integrated Intel graphics GPU. It supports overlay to an external monitor at HD resolution, and I can edit four-layers of 1080i cineform HD without a hiccup. Not too shabby, (I can now edit in the hotel room). However, it's not a game machine. Which makes a point that in video editing, overlay is the most important feature and you don't need a high end card to get it.

Peter, we're building a new quad workstation for AE editing, and thinking of yanking the Parhelia APVe from another quad workstation and using it, since the preview with the dual monitors is good enough.

My question to you is: why would a Xena LHe be better for us than say...two graphics cards, one for the dual DVI support, and the other for just HD out to a HD LCD/plasma/projector?

Two graphics cards should work fine with this Intel D975XBX2 mb, as it has 3 PCIe slots (electrical: x16, x8, x4) and was designed for Multi-GPU.

I would think that it would be much cheaper, and since we do everything as CF HD and captures are either direct via the HDMI to a custom portable unit, or from the VI tapes via firewire, what would be the benefit?

For the life of me, I can't see any advantage unless we go to SDI at some point (and given the current cost/benefit of a EX1 to the V1, that is unlikely).

Think I am answering my own question! Matrox has a new series of very low power, fan-less cards. Among them is a P690 LP PCIe x1 that is not only fairly inexpensive, but can be "joined" with a Parhelia for using up to 3 DVI's and a HD panel. Looks very viable to me and a good solution for inexpensively viewing on multi panels, plus HD out:

http://www.matrox.com/graphics/en/corpo/products/pseries/p690lppcie1.php

1. Cineform/prospect was built with xena cards in the test systems.
2. You avoid the lag time when using overlay to a PC monitor via the PC's GPU. The Xena will be a dedicated pipe.
3. You can free up the second monitor to increase desktop space for bins, timelines, etc.
4. You'll look cool, get more chicks, and be a hero to your friends.

1. Cineform/prospect was built with xena cards in the test systems.
2. You avoid the lag time when using overlay to a PC monitor via the PC's GPU. The Xena will be a dedicated pipe.
3. You can free up the second monitor to increase desktop space for bins, timelines, etc.
4. You'll look cool, get more chicks, and be a hero to your friends.

Ha, I don't mind being a hero, but an old buzzard like me couldn't look cool even if I DID have hair! Plus, I like my wife...rather, I love my wife. No chicks needed.

Okay, so what's the big deal with #1? In other words, so what?

#2 doesn't seem like a huge reason either...

As to #3, what would be the advantage over what I suggested below (using two cards - new Matrox P690 LP PCIe x1 with a Parhelia APVe) With that setup, I could use 3 DVI monitors and look REALLY COOL, plus output to a HD panel or DVI panel or analog or whatever!

And I can think of a MAJOR advantage of doing it with the two cards: it's MUCH cheaper, as in well over a thousand bucks!

You gotta come up with something better than that.

The ATI HD 2000 pro series of cards will support hardware overlay via both DVI ports (I have the HD2600 Pro AGP 512MB).

Hi Peter, does ATI do an equivalent card in PCI-Express?

The HD cards also have dedicated audio hardware, and with an adaptor, you can convert a DVI port to an HDMI with the audio stream included. These cards are primarily targeted for HD home theater enthusiast.

Do you use this function? Does it work well and do you get 5.1 (or 7.1) sound?

Ha, I don't mind being a hero, but an old buzzard like me couldn't look cool even if I DID have hair! Plus, I like my wife...rather, I love my wife. No chicks needed.

Okay, so what's the big deal with #1? In other words, so what?

#2 doesn't seem like a huge reason either...

As to #3, what would be the advantage over what I suggested below (using two cards - new Matrox P690 LP PCIe x1 with a Parhelia APVe) With that setup, I could use 3 DVI monitors and look REALLY COOL, plus output to a HD panel or DVI panel or analog or whatever!

And I can think of a MAJOR advantage of doing it with the two cards: it's MUCH cheaper, as in well over a thousand bucks!

You gotta come up with something better than that.

Xena is also the only way to get 10bit previews, the only way to layback to tape via SDI, and the primary way of capturing from SDI. On the other hand, the Xena output sometimes has sync issues with regular sound cards. No big deal with the LHe since you can use the analog audio outs from the card, but the older HS cards were AES audio only, which led to the neeed for convertors to use regular speakers. Just something to think about. We have Xena cards in all of our Cineform systems. Way easier to deal with if you have the professional hardware to hook them to. I don't have one in my system at home, since I have nothing to attach to it, but it (and the peripherals) are on my wish list.

Mike, I guess the bottom line on this is "if you need or do SDI". Since that is the main function of that card and the main advantage.

Cameras like the Sony V1, Z1, and many other others at this "prosumer" level, only have HDMI/component out (and 8bit), so to me, it's hard to see any real world advantage to the Xena, unless a person goes to SDI. For sure it would fit like a glove in a SDI workflow, but for anyone else, how could you justify that $1800 cost? It's like using a Corvette to haul bricks! Two different tools for two different purposes.

I still have yet to hear any reasons for or against the use of two cards as I suggested. It seems like a LOT more bang for the bucks to me! Especially if a person is using a quad with a good workstation level mb and has a decent RAID.

Unless I am missing something here?

If you don't have any SDI gear, the Xena will be totally useless. Getting a single piece of the puzzle is useless without the rest of the tools to go with it. The Xena is the primary way of getting 10bit HD content onto and off of a Cineform edit system, but you need an SDI deck/camera and an SDI display device to take advantage of it.

I know someone who ended up with acquiring $15K Bluefish Fury card, that they were all excited about. I refered to it as a paperweight, because they had no way to use it at all. It has been in their system for years now, totally unused. They do HDV in, desktop edit and color, to DVDs usually, no SDI involved.

I soon be able to prove my theory, as we just ordered a Matrox P690 LP PCIe x1 ($210) to test in a system together with a Parhelia APVe.

If things work as planned, we'll use one DVI out + HD on the Parhelia, and the two DVI out's on the P690.

Or, we might just use the Parhelia for HD preview, and the two DVI's on the P690 for our workspace stuff. Since Matrox designed these cards to work together, they could make a nice combo for using 3 monitors+HD preview under XP.

Will not get that card for several weeks, as it's being hand carried down to us (Brazil), so will be a while before I have something to report.

My, aren't we gettting greedy for space? ;)

I am greedy for space too, but I take a different approach. Dual view desktop have many 'issues' with different software solutions, so I try to minimize the number of displays. The reason I want a Xena, is so I can get the SDI-out to a DVI convertor to my 24" LCD, but I only plan to have one monitor on my GPU, my 30" LCD, which is great by the way. Having a single display usually increases interface performance. Nvidia span is the only exception to that that I am aware of, but that puts all your dialog boxes right at the screen split point. I have been converting most of the edit stations where I work from dualview 24" LCDs to a single GPU driven LCD, and an SDI converted one from Matrox SDI, XenaSDI, or MultibridgeSDI, depending on the system. Fewer crashes and problems, faster performance, but requires more expensive hardware,so I haven't done it to my home workstation yet.

Yeah, that's the way I'd do it if we were in the US now, but I'm in Brazil and good enough big LCD's are expensive and hard to find. So, we spread things around and surround ourselves with monitors.

If looks were important, we'd do things differently too, but we do our own productions and in the warm season, I work in shorts, thongs and teeshirts! Ha! I love it...

As to performance with the two, I'll let you know in a bit. Couldn't be much worse than a Parhelia anyway. They may be stable, but they are certainly not powerhouses. But, it does have good cost/benefit...

By the way, we just got a hot new Gigabyte GA-X38T-DQ6 mb with a quad brain. When prices fall on the Penryn 3.x quad's the end of 2008, we'll bump that Q6600 up to something that flys a little higher and faster and add some (by then) more cheap DDR3 (what was that you were saying about modern mb's...?..ha! I told you I've been a bleeding edger for over 20 yrs).

It's definitely not a "workstation board", but good enough for AE to fly on! Then again, what really makes a "workstation board" anymore? It's sort of a nebulous term these days. These boards would blow anything out of the water from just a very few years back! Wow! 100% copper heat pipes, ferrite core chokes, solid state capacitors, and a backup BIOS chip, 2 full x16 PCIE 2.0 slots. Can't wait for the 45nm chips to power it.

(Now, as to REALLY bleeding edge...that new 4-quads Gigabyte board sure looks nice...imagine 16 cores for rendering...with 64bit processing to feed that 128 GB of memory...ahhh...)

(Now, as to REALLY bleeding edge...that new 4-quads Gigabyte board sure looks nice...imagine 16 cores for rendering...with 64bit processing to feed that 128 GB of memory...ahhh...)

Never heard of it, and no mention on their site. It has ridiculously expensive written all over it. Boxx has a 16core solution as well. The 7000 series Xeon processors are needed for more than two sockets, and they are more than a thousand dollars a piece, on the lowest end. You also have to use Windows Server2003 or Linux because XP and Vista limit you to two sockets, which causes all sorts of other issues, but AE should still work, and fast.

Never heard of it, and no mention on their site. It has ridiculously expensive written all over it. Boxx has a 16core solution as well. The 7000 series Xeon processors are needed for more than two sockets, and they are more than a thousand dollars a piece, on the lowest end. You also have to use Windows Server2003 or Linux because XP and Vista limit you to two sockets, which causes all sorts of other issues, but AE should still work, and fast.

I was actually joking Mike, but did confuse Gigabyte (was ordering one at the time) with this one:
http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Xeon7000/7300/X7QC3.cfm

or this one:

http://www.supermicro.com/Aplus/motherboard/Opteron8000/MCP55/H8QM3-2.cfm

A friend was building one and suggested it when I complained about not enough power for editing!

True breakthru power though, is yet to come:

http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/35171/118/

Hi again. Still trying to sort this out. Have got a quote for a system using the 6600 and the Geforce 7950 but am now seeing some very competitively priced systems with 2 x GeForce 8800GT. Is that an option - can I somehow use this to get decent monitor output from Premiere / Cineform or is this what Mike is talking about as being a negative in terms of performance due to mutiple graphics cards / screens.

Andrew

The 8800 card requires a weird workaround to get overlay to an external monitor- and even then only works on some systems. It also only supports YUV overlay, not RGB, so the Cineform workaround for the color shift many are experiencing does not work. All in all, not a good card for a Cineform system! GeForce really botched it on this one.

Carl

Thanks Carl, I am now looking at ATI 3850 for video, anyone got reasons why this might not be suitable?

Andrew