Hi!

I'm about ready to purchase the beginnings of my lighting kit and I thought I'd run it past you guys to see what you think. These lights will be used primarily to light instructional videos at first - the proceeds from this videos will allow me to add more lights and other equipment as needed.

3 Altman 650L Fresnel Lights
3 Chimara Daylight Junior Plus 1 Softboxes (these are the extra deep ones for use with fesnel) - 1 36x48 (for fill light), 1 24x32 (for key), and one 12x16 (for hair light).
2 Regular light stands and 1 boom stand (for hair light).
3 sets of barndoors.
A bunch of 650 and 300 watt lamps.
Full double, full single, and half single scrims.
Assorted gels.
1 fabric grid for 36x48 and 1 for 24x32 softbox.
Speedrings for Daylight Junior/Altman 650L.

What do you think?

I personally don't think the softbox on a fresnel is a great idea. The softbox reflector is a big parabola in effect. The parabola as a reflector is at its best when the bulb is open on all sides (even if covered with a glass protection beaker) and placed at least roughly in the sweet spot of the parabola. Something like the starlight type fixtures. A fresnel only allows light to escape from its front through the lens. Yes, it works but its not the most efficient setup in the world for getting all of the light out that you're using current to generate.

Also, yes a softbox can be used as a hairlight but its perhaps not the best when you want real rim definition. A good 150w pepper fresnel is great for that. I see you were talking about getting 300w bulbs so you could use those in the 650's to make them into a lower wattage rim light.

Other than that, the choices seem pretty good.

Thanks!

What you said about the rim light makes sense - I'll do that instead of the third 650L.

I would agree with you about the fresnel, but it seems to me that fresnel lights would be more versatile. Also, not to long ago, Mike Curtis posted notes on his blog from a pro DP's session he attended, and one of the things that intrigued me is that the DP said she would never use open-faced lights - it just isn't done for some reason. At least, according to her.

Anyway, I'll think about it. Thanks!

That is just one person's opinion - and a kind of odd one at that. Pro DPs use ALL sorts of fixtures all the time. If you need proof, go through the American Cinematographer archives (www.theasc.com). You'll see/read about the big guys and gals using everything from enormous fresnels, to Kino Flos, to Arri Blondes, even Ellen Kuras using nothing but clamp-on photofloods in "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind."

Also, I agree with Richard about not putting a fresnel in a softbox. If you're woried about versatility, open-faced fixtures are versatile as well. I think you would have a well-rounded kit with a mix of fresnel and open-faced fixtures. Consider it.

Good luck.

~~Dave

Most film DP's have crews and gear, (not too mention a lot more amps of power), at their command that you will not have, so their choices are going to be somewhat different. So don't get too caught up in the opinions of DP's. What we all have in common is how light behaves, just as true on a smaller scale as a larger.

Softlights are good for broad, even, illumination without hard shadows. For General room/set illumination as well as giving lighting facial features without glare/shine or deep shadows, softlights are great. Open Face instruments with softboxes are the norm. You could use either larger open face or fresnels, shoot them into a silk framed a few feet away, and also get lovely soft light. Either way, and especially with the second way, that 'broad' light means that it is hard to 'cut', softlights tend to 'spill' over a broader area. BTW, some open face lights can be focused into looser or tighter beams.

Fresnels are capable of an even tighter beam, also variable. And with their barndoors, their spill is easier to control. If aimed at faces, w/o diffusion, they can leave hard, dark shadows or glare spots. They are also great for light splashes with fairly defined edges, on back walls. Small ones are great to produce 'glare' on hair and shoulders, rim lighting to seperate subjects from walls.

All this to say that open faced instruments, when used as part of a light kit, are just as important and versatile, as fresnels. So feel free to add a few to your kit, and know that you won't be limiting, but actually expanding your lighting options.

Also, check the weight of your Altman fresnels, vs. say, Arri fresnels. Altman makes good lights, but I've known them mostly for theater, they may not be as 'portable' as lights made for video. And believe me, the weight of light kits becomes a big logistical issue, no matter how big and strong you are.

Open faced lights, when used properly are fine. Especially open faced ones like Redheads, or your basic Lowel Omni that can spot and flood.

Don't sell the farm to use a fresnel on a background. You cut it, and most of what you bought the fresnel for is useless.

People in my profession (ENG) rave about my lighting, but all I have are a Lowel DP, umbrellas, a couple of Omnis, and that's it.

I think the Altman fresnels are great. The portable kits aren't like the theatrical lights at all.I bought a set some years ago, two 650s and two 300s. They cost just a little more than the Arris but I liked them better because of the stands and the way the lid opened for changing bulbs. Mole Richardson also has similar small fresnels now in an equivalent kit for a bit more than the Altmans.

Also I agree about using fresnels with softboxes. You can, but you're really better off with an open faced light.

I routinely use a variety of different lights, including fresnels, open face Lowels, fluorescents and HMIs. There's no one kind of light for everything.

You might also want to get gel holders for the fresnels, although you can just drop in a circle of diffusion gel without the holder if you want.

Bill, good to hear about the Altmans-I didn't realize they make portable kits and it certainly wasn't a slam against them.

Another valuable addition to a beginners' kit, even before you get anything else, might be to get a couple of good books on cinematography and give them a good read. I'm sure there are a few threads at dvinfo that will cover the subject. John Jackman and Blain Brown are 2 authors I can recommend right off the bat.

Good luck with it all!

Thanks!

What you said about the rim light makes sense - I'll do that instead of the third 650L.

I would agree with you about the fresnel, but it seems to me that fresnel lights would be more versatile. Also, not to long ago, Mike Curtis posted notes on his blog from a pro DP's session he attended, and one of the things that intrigued me is that the DP said she would never use open-faced lights - it just isn't done for some reason. At least, according to her.

Anyway, I'll think about it. Thanks!

If I had a choice between an open face light and a fresnel I would normally take the fresnel but for softbox use, I think the open face is the way to go, or just skip the hot light softbox and go to fluorescent which will give the same soft effect. You really need both fresnels and soft lights to be able to handle a variety of situations well.

Ok, that makes sense guys. So, I guess for my first lights, I'll do a 150w fresnel and two 650w open faced lights. Can most open faced lights be lamped down?

Dale,

One thing that has not been mentioned about open-faced lights is that they cast double shadows because there are two light sources, the lamp and the reflector. This is not bad just something to be aware of. With a Fresnel the lens combines these two sources into one source thus a single shadow.

I use Altman Fresnels except for the 150 which is an Arri. I use a separate softbox light from the Fresnels.

The kit I use the most contains one (1) 650, one (1) 300, one (1)150 watt light with one (1) softbox light with a 500 and a 1000 watt blub. I travel with a 36x36” softbox, however I have softboxes from 24x24” to 36x48” that I could use and interchange as needed.

I have barndoors and scrim sets for the Altman Fresnels and use blackwrap for the 150.

I carry ¼ and ½ and full CTB color correction and some Opal for diffusion. (other gels in the gellyroll)

For stands, I carry two (2) 10-foot heavy-duty stands a lightweight 7 foot stand and small 36 inch stand.

Bill

Thanks, Bill - that's very helpful. Well, off to B&H to rethink my order list!

Ok, here is my redone shopping list:

Arrilight 1000 with 1000w and 600w lamps, scrims, 24x32 video pro soft box.
Altman 650L fresnel with 650w and 300w lamps, barndoors, and scrims.
Arri 150w fresnel with lamps and barndoors.
Asst color correction gels and a few sheets of Rosco 1/4 white diffusion.

Stands are two Impact air cushioned light stands, and one Avenger boom stand w/sandbag.

Dale, here's my two cents worth, and it is just another opinion, but first, a little of my background. I've been through an intensive two year film program, where we used a mixture of open and fresnel light fixtures. I then went into corporate video production, and would borrow my buddy's Lowel kit. Eventually we moved away, and I rented Fresnel kits while saving up for my own, and at NAB 2005 looked over all the light kits. I decided upon the Arri D4 Soft bank kit, and I love it. Again, its just my opinion and I'm not saying others who post here are wrong, but i find the fresnel lights WAY easier to work with. I've heard people say "light is light" and justify that they can make Home Depo construction lights into a "kit". I think that's crap. I've gone that route too, and the Lowel, and the Arri kit just seems far superior. I find it very easy to set up a really nice lighting scheme, and the results always seem way better than what I would get with open faced kits, even stuff like Lowel. I don't find putting the softbox on the 650 an issue, but I don't think it "improves" the lighting by using a fresnel with the softbox. It just makes things a bit more versitile because if you opt not to use the softbox, you've still got a 650 fresnel to work with.
The Arri Kit is really well made, the spot function actually works as opposed to some of the open faced light kits out there where the spot/flood function is useless. For me, good lighting is about being able to control the light, and the Arri kit just makes it that much easier. If I had to do it again, I wouldn't hesitate to buy the Arri Kit. I can't say the same for my buddy that bought the Lowel kit, he says he wishes he went with the Arri. But that's not to say that Lowel kits are bad, they can do a great job, it just takes more time and effort. I usually find that time is precious on set, so I appreciate how I seem to get "immediate" results with the Arri kit. I always hated those Lowel "Tota" lights though, that just seem to blast light all over the place. Next thing you know, you're using a couple of flags and C-stands just control the light, which defeats the point of having a small "portable" kit.

With the Arri kit my only cautions would be is that it is:
bigger
heavier
more expensive

None of these factors come close for me to out-weighing the benefits.

Bert,

What you say is helpful, but a bit confusing at the same time. Are you arguing for Arri vs Lowell, or are you saying that it's ok to use fresnels in a softbox?

I think you are saying the later, just want to be sure.

Once question that did occur to me is this: if using fesnels in softboxes is impractical/unheard of, than why do most of Arri's soft bank kits do exactly that? In fact, I was looking for a kit with a low and a medium wattage fresnel, a medium or high wattage open faced light, and a soft box, and I couldn't find such a thing. Go figure.

Dale, sorry to be confusing. I keep wonder if the big tree in back is going to fall on our house in todays storm, so I'm a bit distracted.

"Is it ok to use a fresnel with a softbox?" I'd sure say so. I've used "normal" soft boxes before (ie Rifa or whatever they're called) and as far as the end result goes, I don't see a difference. You're quite correct, Arri includes soft boxes with a number of their kits. I think its more a matter of if you were looking for just a softbox, there would be no benefit in getting the Chimera box (that's what comes in the Arri kit btw) and putting it on a fresnel lamp. An open faced lamp would work just as well. Because Arri wants to maximize its flexibility, the D4 kit comes with a 650w fresnel that can be used with or without the softbox, as opposed to a kit that has just a softbox/open faced light combination that you either use or don't... does that make sense? I must confess that I've never encountered the notion that using a softbox on fresnel is a big no-no... works great for me.

Am I arguing Lowel vs Arri...? Sorry for this misunderstanding. I drew that comparisson for two reasons. One is that the Lowel kit was my first consideration, and two the Lowel kits are very popular because they are affordable and portable. I'm not saying its the brand that makes a difference. I'm just saying that the fresnel lights I now have to my mind work much better than the open faced lights I've used previously, and most of those were Lowels. A Lowel light is a lot better than working with none, or with "homemade" kits. The Arri kit is a lot better than the Lowels I've used. All can be made to give you professional results, and this is only my opinion.

Ok, here is my redone shopping list:

Arrilight 1000 with 1000w and 600w lamps, scrims, 24x32 video pro soft box.
Altman 650L fresnel with 650w and 300w lamps, barndoors, and scrims.
Arri 150w fresnel with lamps and barndoors.
Asst color correction gels and a few sheets of Rosco 1/4 white diffusion.

Stands are two Impact air cushioned light stands, and one Avenger boom stand w/sandbag.


Speed ring for the softbox???

I would re-think the 1k it is nice to have but I have an Altman Studio 1k and have yet to need it. YMMV

Don't forget the black wrap, gaffer tape, C-47s, Pony clamps and all that other needed grip equiptment!!

Bill

Bill,

Yes, I do have a speed ring planned - I figured that goes without saying. :) Thanks for the other tips! BTW, what are C-47s?

Bert,

Ok, now you have me thinking more along the lines of my original plan... like I said before, it seems to me that the fresnel lights would be more versatile because, when used without a softbox, you don't have such an extremely harsh light, so they are more usable that way. But that's just theory - I have no experience with pro lights. And think about it - I can always buy open faced later on if I feel that I am selling my fresnels short by boxing them. But right now, the immediate need is SOME kind of decent lighting kit that will cost me no more than $2500; preferably less. In a few weeks, if things pan out like I'm hoping, I'll be able to afford more if I need it.

C-47s are clothespins.

I think you should get a mixed kit, with fresnels and at least one open faced plus a softbox. You get the best of both types of fixtures.

~~Dave

seems to me that the fresnel lights would be more versatile because, when used without a softbox, you don't have such an extremely harsh light, so they are more usable that way.

This is a totally correct assumption. Just being honest, for interview shots and the like, when I started working with fresnel lights, I wondered how I did without them.

For your price range, you could buy an Arri kit, something with 4 lights, one being opened faced. Though it seems all light kits are a tight fit, it is nice to have them all fit into one box when you want to transport.

I agree with Richard about the hairlight. The kit that I use is:

2 x 150w Fresnel
1 x 300w Fresnel
1 x 650w Fresnel
Softbox goes on the 650.

Again, this is just my experience, but one of the things I found was more often than not, my shoots were made difficult because I had TOO MUCH light, rather than not enough. Take the hairlight for example. In the past I'd have to cut down a 500w open faced light, and try to focus it on the right spot, sort of fighting two battles at once. The 150w works perfect. Just put a gel on, and its good to go. They also work great for fills, or spoting specific areas.

Yup, you'll want all the little things like gels, c47's, c-stands, sand bags, foam core (art stores sell foam core that is white on one side, black on the other). I bought a really neat gel holder that rolls up. I don't think I'm allowed to say where because they're not a sponsor of this site.

I'll try to post a pic of a lighting setup.

Bert,

Thanks - that was very helpful.

On another note, I see that you're using an xl2 (or is it an xl1...kinda hard to tell) which is what I will be using. Not that it would make much difference, but cool anyway. Oh, and honestly, how necessary is that matte box since there is no light aimed at the lens? Of course, if you call impressing clients necessary... ;) J/K

Thanks!

Dale,

This is personal preference, however instead of the Rosco 3028 Tough 1/4 White Diffusion you might want to try the 3010 Opal Tough Frost.

Bert’s kit is good, I also have an extra 150 that I sometimes use, to his list I would add a separate softbox fixture like a Starlite or the ones I use which I found on ebaY. Search for “PHOTO DIGITAL VIDEO LIGHTING TUNGSTEN LIGHT HEAD”

Bill

Very well, Bill, I'll try both!

Oh, and honestly, how necessary is that matte box since there is no light aimed at the lens? Of course, if you call impressing clients necessary... ;) J/K
Thanks!

Its an XL2 and you pretty much nailed it.. yup, lets put on all the bells and whistles so that the client will be impressed. It was a shoot for a real estate company and they kept saying "you're professional, right?" so shoot day I brought out all the toys! :P

I see my kit as a very good foundation, so like Bill says, it wouldn't hurt to ad a separate soft box fixture. Not that my kit is leaving me wanting right now, but I could see it quickly becoming the "next thing" on my list. I just don't think you can have too many softboxes, they offer great light, especially for interviews. I did recently see a Yoga video that my wife got, where it was shot on a set, with really hard lighting, and looked great. Made sense because the hard light really helped define the muscles and body posture.

That's funny. I want to get a matte box and rails as soon as I can, both because of "impression" factor, but also for when I need them for outdoor shoots. However, there are more pressing needs at the moment.... like lights!

One might wonder... if the client didn't trust you that much, why did they hire you in the first place?!