What type of device is best used for previewing when one can't afford a production monitor. CRT monitor or television?

Any LCD second monitor will work, if your video card will support it. You're best off using a monitor with an SPVA style LCD panel. Avoid 'tn' panels, as they don't have the same range of colors as a production monitor.

What type of device is best used for previewing when one can't afford a production monitor. CRT monitor or television?

Hmm. If you mean a computer CRT monitor then the answer is complicated.

PC monitors (though not Mac AFAIK) have a different gamma response to a TV or studio monitor, making video seem dark and lacking "vibrance". On the other hand, they (and for Mac) are precise with lots of adjustments to make the image look correct. This is true for studio monitors, too, but definitely not for consumer TVs. They are almost deliberately imprecise so as to accommodate a wide range of poor signals.

Another consideration is the output signals from whatever it is you want to preview. To use a TV or studio monitor, the odds are you will already have the right signal format (S-video, composite). For a computer monitor, you'll need either DVI or VGA. Of course, if your preview is actually a second display from your computer's graphics card then that opens up a myriad of options.

Many computer LCD displays permit traditional video signals, too. However, LCD displays don't provide the dynamic range that CRTs do - especially for true black.

Sorry to complicate things - it does depend somewhat on what you already have and the trade-off you will have to choose between the various options.

1- Most consumer computer monitors and TVs aren't color accurate. A computer CRT (not TV) should have reasonable color... though it still may not be accurate (gamma might be wonky, there might be graphics overlays at work, the primaries aren't the right color, the monitor might be tweaking the color).

1b- Looking at a computer monitor can be misleading since the video preview:
--Doesn't show overscan by default. You can turn the overlays on... remember that the edges of the picture get cropped.
--No interlace flicker.
--pixel aspect ratio might be wrong. If you turn on simulate pixel aspect ratio, you see aliasing artifacts that aren't there and performance is lower.

2- In Vegas 8, you need to be sure that you are monitoring the right levels.

http://glennchan.info/articles/vegas/v8color/v8color.htm

This depends on what preview method you're using, what codec you are using (less complicated if you use the defaults), and whether the project is 8-bit or 32-bit. If you don't pay attention to that, then your preview might be wrong!!


Knowing the above you can kind of figure things out. Having a broadcast monitor makes life easier.

Thanks guys. I dislike LCD's, though that is what I run, and have used a second for monitoring. Didn't care for it. I have tried a 21" CRT, but you are right, way too much tweaking needed and still you can't be sure how it will appear later on TV.

Based on what I've read, I think I'm going to opt for a television. I'm reasoning that since the vast majority of my videos are played on DVD players it will be most representative of what it should be to preview on a television.

Thank you for your detailed responses John and Glenn, and for the SPVA tip, Bill ...like your articles Glenn!

I use a CRT and LCD and then a TV to do all my color correction on and also to view whats on my time line.
Cheers
Simon

Jeff, you might find some low cost used production monitors on eBay.

I have bought two this way over the last couple of years and they've served me well. Neither of them looked very spectacular but there was no burn in on the screens. Both are 4:3 but Vegas can letterbox to simulate 16:9. A friend came and calibrated/focused the last one 'professionally'. The difference between the production monitor's display and the 'sweetened' display of the TV is remarkable.

Might be worth a glance?

Great suggestion, Ian! Tell me, what IS the difference, and why are the monitors better? Is it the accuracy?

I am finding tons of used monitors on EBay, Ian...

how much would a typical broadcast montior cost? Something that would work well with Vegas? Prob need something like a black magic intensity as well right?

Sean, the least expensive monitors at b&h were around $800 as I recall, for the cheapos. (This is dead wrong, as Bill Ravens points out below)

Sorry, I misunderstood your question, Jeff. Thought you had rulled out CRT and TV. JVC makes a real nice 13 inch studio, color monitor. It even has a blue gun. Cost <$1000.

Thanks, Bill. Tell me if you will, what do you look at when considering monitors, eg., how many lines, etc. I am looking a many used ones on e-bay that appear to be in great condition, but I don't know what to look for!

Jeff...

Specs are all over the map, depending, of course, on what you want to spend. You want, most of all, the most horiz. resolution you can get. If you're wanting HDv rez, you won't find it in an inexpensive studio monitor.

Here's the JVC monitor I was referring to. This one has a lot to offer for the price, including the option to upgrade at a later date if you want component or SDI input:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/319818-REG/JVC_TM_H150CGU_TMH_150CGU_15_Inch_Color_Production.html

Take a look at its specs, then use them to do a little bit of comparison shopping.

Thanks much Bill. Wow, under $500! Looks great!

Looking good Jeff, lots of options here!

To answer your question, I think the key difference is that the monitor can be calibrated to show a true representation of colour, whereas consumer TV's are sweetened in different ways by different manufacturers to give richness of colour, tone etc. And therein lies the problem - different ways by different manufacturers.

Take a look at a bank of TV's in Best Buy - they'll be showing the same picture but you can bet it will appear differently on each screen. A good production monitor shows how it *should* be, ie true colours, which will therefore give your video the best chance of looking acceptable on the widest range of consumer TV's possible.

They also offer differing functions like the ability to turn underscan on and off, switch to monochrome, switch to alternative video sources etc etc.

And of course let's not forget that it makes your working area or studio look cool - all those screens! Lovely!

I see what you mean, Ian, when you mention the bank of TV's at Best Buy, etc....dramatic difference between pics.

Another option for used equipment - university surplus stores. I live close to the Duke Unversity surplus store and often drop by to see what's available. I seen many Sony studio monitors for less than $100. There's no S&H involved which can save a lot of money on such a heavy item.

Used monitors may be kind of sketchy... over use, the monitor's phosphors will get a little worse and there might be other problems. e.g. If you ever walk to a room full of old CRTs (e.g. libraries), you'll see that some of them have slight focus issues and so forth. Grayscale may not track nicely (e.g. display a black and white picture... does everything appear perfectly black and white without color casts?).

It's something to watch out for.

Good advice Glenn. On both occasions I collected from the seller and paid cash after checking the monitor out. I also had a friend run up a list of questions to ask the seller before bidding, that included burn-in and focus issues. If it wasn't so disruptive having to unplug the thing each time I went on a shoot (at least one or two days a week) and then put it all back again afterwards, I would use my field monitor, which was bought from new.

Thank you one and all for your assistance.

Jeff, the JVC that Bill recommended is an excellent monitor. I put 4 of them into Vegas edit suites at the college I work for a few years ago and remain very happy with them.
I've also recommended it numerous times on various Vegas forums and no one who has bought one has been disappointed yet.
BTW, Color Bars and How To Use 'em (http://www.videouniversity.com/tvbars2.htm) is a great tutorial on setting up your monitor with the SMPTE bars in Vegas,

Just to add on, would a DELL 24" 2407WFP LCD be a better choice compared to a Samsung LA32R81BX 32" LCD TV for a preview monitor?

Sean, the Samsung is only 1366 x 768 resolution while the Dell is 1900 x 1200.
I bought the Dell earlier this year and love it!!

Mike, with NO disrespect to your esteemed opinion intended, I run the 2407 as well. I do not like the way video looks on it....it is the reason I'm looking for a monitor.

Now, I do LOVE the width for my timeline...it's excellent, and the price is so low on them now...I would personally choose another monitor at this point...I like the kind with the (excuse the dumb description here) shiny surface...a friend of mind has an HP like that and images are so much clearer than on mine, similar to some Sonys I've seen, though I really don't know anything about them I just like what I've seen in a couple of quick looks.

And while it has nothing to do with Vegas, I can't (won't) watch a movie on the 2407 either, the ghosting, in my opinion, is so bad it is not watchable. But I was warned about that in advance.

I too am looking at a HD 32" TV to use as a preview device. While you, Bill and others helped me to understand the benefits of a decent broadcast monitor, I am going to purchase the HD set and try it out because it has to be way more accurate than a computer monitor of any sort, and besides, I don't have an HD television set yet anyway. I need to see how things are going to look on a television, since that is where my customers see the finished product I give them.

I should add I'm probably wanting too much too begin with. I purchased a like-new 24" Sony Widescreen Trinitron CRT monitor earlier this year (the same used by the crew of "300", they bought 50 of them from the same place I did) and sold it, I didn't see the benefit. It was so huge it didn't fit in my workspace well anyway!

Jeff...

Thought I'd jump in here 'cuz I think you may have missed a point made earlier. While a 32 inch TV set will give you a nice picture, you've absolutely NO idea how this picture will display on other sets. This is because consumer TV sets do all kinds of unknown things to the picture. I've seen my own work look fine on my home HDTV, then look absolutely horrible on my neighbors. The only consistent image you can rely on is one that you view on a calibrated studio monitor. If a customer ends up with a bad image, you can be SURE it's not your monitor that caused it. If you use a commercial TV for a monitor, you won't be able to say it's not your fault.

My workflow is to do my CCing on a Sony PVM or Samsung 215TW. After I've finished, I play it thru on a JVC studio monitor to double check the results. If that looks good, I'll burn the image to a DVD-RW and play the DVD on my home Sony 32 inch HDTV. This process has proven quite reliable, for me.

No offense taken Jeff.
I should've clarified that I use it for Vegas only, not as a preview monitor.
The few times that I've stuck a DVD into my computer and played it, the video is so dark as to be unwatchable.
It could just be operator error on my part (might help to actually read the manual one of these days!!) but DVDs on my old tube-type monitor looked much better.

My only recommendation as far as an external LCD or plasma is to make sure it does real HD (1920x1080) at 1080p and not the faux HD of 1366x768 - or worse.

BTW, Sharp has two 32" Aquos models on sale at Best Buy right now, the LC-32D62U (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8590189&productCategoryId=abcat0101001&type=product&tab=1&id=1190678017262#productdetail) for $1299 and the LC-32GP1U (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8274388&productCategoryId=abcat0101001&type=product&tab=2&id=1171057791721#productdetail) for $1,259.99.
Both are 1080p and 1920x1080 res with lots of different inputs.

Finally, AV Science Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/) is a good site to do some research into LCD monitors.

Thanks, Bill. I understand what you are saying...I was set to purchase a monitor, but then....I got to thinking...that I could get triple duty with a TV.

First, my monitor is SO inaccurate anything would be an improvement. A monitor such as the JVC sounds perfect. In fact when I do buy a dedicated monitor, it will be the one.

But I don't need just a preview monitor, I need a table top unit to rent out to play slideshows, etc. I also need a television because my current home set (which at one time was a beauty) is old and looks awful and can't be relied upon to play DVDs with any degree of accuracy whatsoever, the images are dark.

So thanks, Bill for attempting to prevent me from missing the point of the production monitor...it's just that in looking at my overall needs (and my inability to purchase all of the items I want at one time) I thought that the small HD set would serve three functions while I get into a position to spring for the JVC or it's equivalent.

Thanks Mike for the tip re: faux HD!

Mike, the Aquos looks sweeet for the money! I am actually looking at much lesser model http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/productDetail.do?oid=194457#warranty since I will be using it primarily for SD...But I don't know...I haven't even laid eyes on it yet.

If the experiment fails, I will just buy the JVC you guys recommend and return the set. It is so great to at least have options now...when I put up my post yesterday, I had no ideas and was under the impression I had to spend $1000 for a cheap production monitor. I'm so glad I posted!

(I have seen the above television, it's not much, went with another model)

Jeff...

yeah, I get what you're saying. Building up a studio ain't cheap. One step at a time, according to priority. I do the same.

ah thanks for the advise. I also noticed that the Sony series has 1080p capability which may be good if I have a Blackmagic Intensity HDMI interface. But I'm not sure if Vegas can support that. 32" LCD is the max of my tiny budget. Like u guys mentioned, I do understand the calibration of such monitors are very different! So maybe dual LCD screens are still a better choice.

The JVC TM-H150 here too.

It has 720 lines of monitoring and provides me with superior colour fidelity.

I use VegasPro8. Having the JVC working the colour grading I do for my clients, makes both the process and the opportunities for creativity that much more attainable and fresh.

Like a good set of headphones or pro audio monitors - a good/pro monitor provides a way into your work that nothing else can provide. This JVC does it for me each and every time. It is a fine monitor at an unbelievably, for monitors, mid-way price.

Doing this for a living, I feel I owe it to myself and the client to get what I can from the footage shot. Being able to clearly and precisely monitor the same - video<>audio - is the only way I know how. Once you've seen it in action, there is no way going back. But that's for me.

When, and if this one should fail - I'll buy another!!

Over here http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=103246 is a sample of the colour correction done using the JVC - and yes, the stuff on the LEFT has been CC-ed!

Grazie

It has 720 lines of monitoring and provides me with superior colour fidelity.


750, no Grazie?

750, no Grazie?

750, yes. "750 lines of horizontal resolution"

So, it's even better than I remembered!

Grazie

I was just looking at the specs - looks very good for the money! Who do you typically get your gear from, Grazie?

I've just blown my last job's profit on a custom built jib so any new purchases are being held at bay until after Christmas! Unless Santa can squeeze one of those babies down my chimney. So to speak . . .

Actually, going by the dope sheet http://www.jvcpro.co.uk/item/index_html?item=TM-H150CG it says:

"Horizontal resolution: More than 750 TV lines "

And at the flick of a button it does excellent underscan mode too. I use this to check that my video is fully in view and text is not wandering off the viewed area.

As I say, this is a great Monitor.

Grazie

As I say, this is a great Monitor.

It certainly is!!
Aren't you glad you listened to me when I recommended it you :-)

Now both of you (Ian & Grazie). Get to work!!
It's 4:25 a.m. where I am and I'm just waking up so I have a while to go yet before I have to get my butt in gear.

Mike (aka rs170a)

It certainly is!!
Aren't you glad you listened to me when I recommended it you :-)

PLEASE LET IT BE KNOWN! - Whenever I mention the fact that the JVC is a great monitor to use, it was only, ONLY 'cos Mike told me about it.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank my Mum and Dad for bringing me into the World; Mrs Jenkins who taught me how to read and rite proper English .. Ms S XXXXXX who taught me how to . . I'll leave the rest to your imagination.

Mike? Don't ever change!! LOL!!!!

Grazie

PLEASE LET IT BE KNOWN! - Whenever I mention the fact that the JVC is a great monitor to use, it was only, ONLY 'cos Mike told me about it.

Grazie, that was just a teensy bit over the top!!

Mike? Don't ever change!! LOL!!!!Grazie

My wife's been trying to change me ever since we got married 25 years ago and hasn't succeeded so I don't think I will :-)

If it helps to bring the mood back to earth, I'm off to a funeral this morning so no work today (I've told the family of the deceased I don't shoot wedding videos and this is a similar kind of thing. I want my day off!).

Jeff...

Specs are all over the map, depending, of course, on what you want to spend. You want, most of all, the most horiz. resolution you can get. If you're wanting HDv rez, you won't find it in an inexpensive studio monitor.

Here's the JVC monitor I was referring to. This one has a lot to offer for the price, including the option to upgrade at a later date if you want component or SDI input:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/319818-REG/JVC_TM_H150CGU_TMH_150CGU_15_Inch_Color_Production.html

Take a look at its specs, then use them to do a little bit of comparison shopping.

Bill I was looking at the same JVC monitor for my Sd/HD worlflow as well.
One question though...
The JVC is native 4:3 withe the switchable opton to view 16:9 correct.

I currently have the JVC '10 monitor which does the same 4:3/16:9 thing.

I want to move up from the JVC '10 becaus it only has component inputs and also only 300 lnes fo resolution. I would pickup the Component card and be feeding footage into the JVC via BM Intensity Pro card.

I really wanted to pickup a consumer LCD, but I don't have the workspace available for a 32-40' set for a true 1920 x 1280 monitor. Everything in my 23-26 size spec is of course 1366 x 768 720P. The leader being the Samsung sets.

Oh BTW, everyone in regards to the Sharp Aquos '32 1080P LCD sets. The image is excellent and it can be callibrated fairly closely to what you want (using bars from your NLE) via HDMI and color controls.

But there's one major flaw with them. Sharp has an Auto Contrast filer that is aalways active. As a result your color saturation will be up and down all over the map.
This can be corrected but can only be done by going into the "service menu" on th Sharp sets and turning this function off.

So unless you want to venture into the service menu, then stay away from Sharp sets for color purposes.

This s one of those unknown things that was mentioned earlier in reagrds to consumer vs. producton monitors.

Noob alert.

Can a monitor, such as the JVC that Bill mentioned, be used when editing 1080p HD content in Vegas? I'm specifically wondering if it could be used in a two monitor set-up as the preview monitor.

I realize I wouldn't be seeing the full resolution, but I am more concerned about getting colors and contrast the way I want.

Thanks. Clark

Clark I can't answer your question but since this thread has popped up again I want to throw in my experience as related earlier on this thread.

I did purchase a HD television set to use as a preview monitor as I had said I would do and was extremely disappointed with the results. I returned it to the store and am buying a true preview monitor, probably the JVC recommended earlier.

The 24" monitor I use is actually more neutral and accurate, I believe, than using a TV hookup, despite the difference in resolutions etc.

Thanks Jeff.

I am not shooting for broadcast. At this point I am just doing it for my own use. I started with a higher end consumer miniDV camcorder, editing in Vegas. I recently bought a Sony EX1 because the miniDV just wasn't sharp enough to make me happy. This recent addition has really emphasized my novice status.

I was a commercial (still) photographer for almost twenty years. Even if I am the only one that sees what I shoot, I still expect decent color and contrast.

Given those expectations, and my status as a video learner, I am trying to learn (without spending huge sums of money in the learning process) whether I can get an acceptable end result if:
1) I use a higher quality LCD computer monitor. (not something as high end as an LCD broadcast monitor)
2) I spend the time calibrating it with a colorimeter, such as a Datavision Spyder.
3) I use a color scale, such as the MacBeth Color Checkers that I used when dialing in a new film emulsion, to compare what the camera is seeing and what the monitor is showing.

Or do I really need to go with a broadcast monitor, such as the JVC mentioned earlier in this thread? (I still can't figure out if it connects directly to a PC.)

Thanks.
Clark

Actually Clark I wasn't responding directly to your question. as I mentioned I was jumping back in regarding the original topic of the thread.

I believe others that use Vegas connect by running firewire from PC to camcorder then they go from camcorder to monitor, but I really don't know for sure.

I have found that the 24" Dell monitor I use is great for relatively accurate work in preview window but when I play back using media player, etc especially with DVD's it's wacked.

You'll get decent accuracy out of a mid-level LDC in the sony vegas preview window, but of course the pros say to calibrate it. I just set it up monitor using the n-vidia tools and built in monitor calibration tools and I'm happy with it. To play back DVDs I have to move to an actual TV set if I want to see remotely what it will look like on televisions.

Gotta run, hope I helped a tiny bit.

Clark...

Welcome!! I, too, have a long history in still photography. Over the years, as I've begun to learn video techniques, I've started answering many of the questions I had that relate to applying still photography techniques to video. In my opinion, unless one is ultimately going out to acetate film, there are not many common practices. Of course the physics of light collection are invariant. But video hardware functions differently from still image photography.

One of the most vexing problems in distribution and delivery of video images, is the fact that the last step in the display, the final display device, is highly non-standardized. End-users adjust color, hue, brightness and contrast to their hearts desire, so what you see on your editting workstation is not what the end user sees. To make matters even more frustrating, many display devices like DVD players are so non standardized as to have huge differences in setup levels, some apply them some don't. And the manufacturer rarely tells the end-user what he's getting in the product manual. In still image printing, black is a function of the printer inks and white is a base layer of the paper you're printing on. Blacks and whites, shadow and highlights, are widely varying values in digital video, depending on the display hardware and how the end user has set up their equipment...or not.

So, the editor has to adhere to the common standards, in the hopes that it will represent some RMS nominal value that is universally accepted by all the variants.

To this end, all monitors have some limited application. All the monitors should be calibrated to NTSC colorbars, REC 709 for HDV, Rec 601 for DV. Here's the best description I've found of a universal standard:

http://www.arib.or.jp/english/html/overview/img/arib_std-b28v1.0_e.pdf

I use a combination of LCD and NTSC monitors. For final CCing, I rely on my JVC monitor. I feed this monitor via firewire fed thru a Canopus ADVC100 digital to analog converter. The advc100, in turn, is fed thru a Signvideo procamp, which serves as my final Levels and pedestal check, before feeding out to my JVC monitor.

The LCD monitors I use are all calibrated with a Gretag Macbeth Eye-1 spectrophotometer. While this works very well for still image grading, it's insufficient for representing colors accurately on an LCD monitor intended for video work. The NTSC monitor, setup to the color bar pattern I referenced above, is the most accurate reference for video colors. Caveat:with more and more end-users going to LCD displays, the LCD monitor may well become the defacto instrument for color calibration. Sadly, brightness levels on LCD's do an injustice to whites and blacks that you may be used to on a printed image.

For color calibration in-camera, the old Gretag Macbeth color chart is not sufficient. In the case of camera calibration, the best reference on the market is a DSC Labs color chart like their chromadumonde color chip chart. A waveform monitor and vectorscope are quite necessary tools in getting the images standardized. I use a SeriousMagic HDRack software for this purpose. Nowadays, the HDRack is available from Adobe.

Rather longwinded response, but, I hope I've helped some in your transition to video color standardizing.

...acceptable end result if:
1) I use a higher quality LCD computer monitor. (not something as high end as an LCD broadcast monitor)
2) I spend the time calibrating it with a colorimeter, such as a Datavision Spyder.
3) I use a color scale, such as the MacBeth Color Checkers that I used when dialing in a new film emulsion, to compare what the camera is seeing and what the monitor is showing.

Or do I really need to go with a broadcast monitor...

Bill has provided some great info above regarding picture monitoring, and I'm using a very similar monitoring workflow.

A couple other points:
*Historically, video has not been capable of the color saturation and fine gradation that many still photographers strive for. This is slowly changing as hidef acquisition technology advances, and better viewing environments. However, for well over 95% of US consumers there is no way for the non-broadcast program developer to fully take advantage of these advances because we are still in an early-adopter stage for acceptance of Blu-Ray or HD-DVD technology. But this too is changing, and perhaps the viewer you want to reach has HD playback.

*Understanding and use of waveform monitor and vectorscope is primary to extracting every last bit of color gradation NTSC video is capable of. You can't go solely by the look on a calibrated pro monitor, especially as regards black level, peak white level, and color saturation. If you go on visual reference only and burn to DVD you run the risk of reds that bleed and blotch, electric whites, and other unintended looks.

*To effectively use the scopes also requires an understanding of the colorspace of the medium you're developing for, eg. the computer screen has a wider latitude than the TV, as Bill mentions the DVD player probably adds 7.5% to the blacks, DV originates in one color space, HDV in another, etc. There are some great posts on this forum, try this link (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/search.php?searchid=1939858) to a search on "colorspace" in the vegas forum. Many of them written by Glenn Chan, who has some interesting articles at http://www.glennchan.info/articles/articles.html

Thanks Bill, Seth, and Jeff.

It looks like the learning curve has become a little steeper than I had hoped. Oh well, if I can master control of E6 film processing, I can do this too.

I have been following the picture profiles thread on the EX1 forum VERY closely. I have tried each of Bill's profiles, but then run into the problem of not knowing if what I see on the monitor is accurate. One step at a time.

Thanks again.
Clark

DVRackHD is now bundled with Premiere. I like Vegas. Are the waveform and vectorscopes in Vegas adequate?

Thanks.
Clark

DVRackHD is now bundled with Premiere. I like Vegas. Are the waveform and vectorscopes in Vegas adequate?
Vegas' scopes are totally adequate for editing.

If you want to haul a pc/laptop to your next shoot OnLocation (nee DVRack 2.0HD) is a very cool tool. I have it and use it for studio stuff. For field, I find zebras are fine and a histogram, if your camera offers it (your EX1 does), is great. Of course OnLocation also gives you a cool hard drive recorder with good playback controls, and a pretty decent visual monitor for reference.

Although you can use Vegas as a hard drive recorder you'll only get monitoring, scopes and controls on playback.