Canon VTR?

Has there been any mention or inkling of a VTR which can handle Canon's Frame Mode? I would never use my camera as a VTR regularly, especially not at a 4K price point.

So? Anything?

Note from Admin:The answer here is either the Canon HV10, HV20 or VIXIA HV30 consumer HDV camcorder. But feel free to continue reading this entire thread if you really want to!

re: Decks and editing --

Will the new cameras work with Final Cut for capture (at least for 1080i60)?

Will the Sony decks work with 1080i60 tape from the new Canon?

chuck

Will the Sony decks work with 1080i60 tape from the new Canon?The Sony HVR-M10, M15 and M25? Yes for 1080i60. No for 30F and 24F (Canon Frame mode).

Here's your Canon Frame mode playback deck:

http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/hv10overview.php

Cost is $1300. Includes a lens; doubles as a camcorder.

Wow! A deck that shoots video! :)

That 'deck' is smaller than mine.

Here's your Canon Frame mode playback deck:

http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/hv10overview.php

Cost is $1300. Includes a lens; doubles as a camcorder.

Wow, curious, as to how this steps up compared to the Sony HC1/A1/HC3 cameras.

Looks like Canon, will be putting some heat on Sony this year.

Here's your Canon Frame mode playback deck:

http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/hv10overview.php

Cost is $1300. Includes a lens; doubles as a camcorder.

Chris:

Do you think this will this work as a deck too with standard HDV playback from a Sony cam like the FX1 ?

Also:

"Imagine a possible application of this CMOS sensor in the near future. What if Canon were to produce a successor to their flagship XL H1 with three of these CMOS chips at its core? Give it embedded audio and Time Code with uncompressed High Definition video in its SDI output jack, an XL-mount lens equipped with Instant AF, and custom function and display settings, and you'd have quite an HDV camcorder."

So this kind of answers a question I had in another thread about 3CMOS technology potentials yesterday. Thanks.

Chris, the only drawback I can see with using the HV10 as a playback deck for Sony HDV camcorders like the FX1 is that I doubt very highly that it will support Sony's CineFrame mode for 24fps, 25fps and 30fps recording. The HV10 wouldn't know what to do with that video. Just a theory though. I'll try to get a answer for certain on that.

I'd pay 2 grand for a VTR if it included a large enough hard drive so I could run copies of tape without using my camera and for the cost of these decks I'm shocked they don't already have at a minimum 250gig internal drives anyway as it seems like a no brainer.

Actually I think cineframe should be fine. Cineframe is just the way the video is sampled. It still gets thrown into a 60i video stream even though both fields are the same. As far as I know a Canon camera should have no problems reading it as a 60i stream.

24F and 30F have issues because they are not a 60i mpeg2 stream but a true progressive mpeg2 video at a true 24p or 30p. Other decks cannot read this form of mpeg2 because they only know how to read 60i.

"Imagine a possible application of this CMOS sensor in the near future. What if Canon were to produce a successor to their flagship XL H1 with three of these CMOS chips at its core? Give it embedded audio and Time Code with uncompressed High Definition video in its SDI output jack, an XL-mount lens equipped with Instant AF, and custom function and display settings, and you'd have quite an HDV camcorder."


Yum. And then if Canon just had a new codec! Or is "raw" output to HD-SDI considered a "codec"?

HDV has reached it's limits. Other companies are going past the limits of HDV. What does Canon do?

How about licensing cineform raw and using it as an acquisition codec? Don't most NLE's support it? Or is this jes crazy talk?

Just thinking.... A 3 chip 2/3 OS XL with a cineform codec.....

Or is "raw" output to HD-SDI considered a "codec"?Not a codec but it is a standard... SMPTE 299M.

This may have been discussed before but thought I'd see if there is any new information. Are A1 owners limited to using an HV10 as an editing deck? If so, this option will not help me choose the A1 for our HD upgrade.

I go back to the days when I used an Elura 2MC as an editing deck for GL2 work. Captured video often had audio drop-outs and pixelization. When I upgraded to Sony PD-170s, I also got the DSR-11. Results were dramatic with zero audio dropouts and only rare video anomalies.

Are there any dedicated, robust editing decks for the Canon HD cameras?
Bob

Sony decks work fine for 1080i60. No go for 24f, of course.

The HV10 can be used as a deck, but it is fairly unprofessional to not have a real deck. I wish someone could make a firmware hack for sony decks, or perhaps Canon could release a real deck with HDMI out, and component in/out.

Yeah, although I bought the A1 for personal use, we couldn't switch to Canons at work for that very reason--we want to shoot 24p and need decks. A camera, while frustratingly slow, can work in personal stuff but in a professional environment you need to slap a tape in and out a zillion times a day with one hand and go. Can't do that with a little camera.

So, what is the best solution for someone looking for an editing deck for their Canon XH-A1? Also, why doesn't Canon make their own editing deck for their camcorders? I see a lot of Sony editing decks available.

The best solution would be to buy the little single chip camera and use it. Chris says it will play both 24F and 30F. Second best solution is to use the A1.

If you are shooting 60i, there's no problem. Sony decks will play the 60i footage.

I bought mine for personal use too, with the possibility of growing into event videography. I think a Firestore would be the ultimate answer, forgoing a deck altogether. Unless I'm missing something.

If you use a Firestore you would then have to figure out the best way to archive your footage before you delete it from the drive.

Thanks for pointing that out Bill. That's the amateur in me not even being aware of that. I don't shoot enough to worry about archiving anything considerable. I am just beginning to fill a 250GB hard drive and of course, assume it will last forever. So in the pro world then, am I hearing you guys archive with the original tapes??

On this topic.. i popped a tape into my Sony M15U not realizing it had 24F on it... now it seems to be stuck and there is no force eject button... ideas?

Wade, just last week I went back for a client into some footage that was 15 years old. We file all our original tapes basically forever. A hard drive isn't a safe place to store original footage. In the past 5 years I've seen 4 firewire drives die for no apparent reason. In two cases the drives were placed in new enclosures and fired up, but the other two could not be resurrected.

If you edit with FCP, you can drag your files in groups of under 4.7 gigs to DVDs and burn DVDs for storage. But that's a hassle, and it's still not your original. As long as you have original tapes filed, and burn your project files to CD, you can rebuild your show on anybody's compatible system.

I'm not a tapenazi. I think we'll all be shooting on some form of solid state device one of these days and we'll be able to store an hour of high def footage on a device the size of a stick of gum, but we're not there yet.

A Firestore does makes sense if you shoot long events. Usually we don't save original from 2 hour speeches--just the master tape and DVD. My feeling at this time is that good quality tape is the cheapest and most reliable thing available for what I do. Others may not have the concerns I do about long term storage.

Matthew--I've had tapes refuse to eject before with a Sony DSR1800 deck. Pull the lid off your deck and see if there are some instructions there for getting a stuck tape out. Our decks have that. Also, sometimes you can power down the deck, unplug it from the wall for a couple of minutes, power it back up and hit the eject button and it will come out. The fact that it's 24p shouldn't cause a tape jam.

well, it might be a conicidence. Been unpluuged all night... still wont eject. I dont see any removal instructions...

Matt

Plan B.
What I've done is pull the lid off, turn the deck back on and look around and see what's happening. Last time I had a jam what happened was that somebody had given me a DVCAM tape with a piece of tape on it that kept the flap on the tape from opening all the way, and it was causing the opposing flap in the deck to stick. I pushed the deck piece open, gently, and the tape came out. I've also had to go in and cut a tape to release it, and that sucks.

Will it fast forward or rewind? If so, do that first.

On the firestore thing...couldn't you record to both!? Obviously you're limited to the length of the tape, but I thought you could record to firestore for ease and tape to archive.

They're also cheaper.

Wont do anything. just sits liek a frozen lump. No motor noises on eject or anythign, just seems like the deck refuses to do anything.

On the firestore thing...couldn't you record to both? I thought you could record to firestore for ease and tape to archive.Absolutely right, Simon... I was just going to point this out myself... when using a FireStore or similar FireWire hard disk recorder (which eliminates the limitations of tape length as well as the tedious video capture process entirely), all you have to do is simply record to tape and to the FireStore at the same time. This creates an immediate archival copy of your video as well as a back-up confidence copy in case anything goes wrong with the tapeless recording.

You can set up the configuration to allow for the tape and the FireStore to remain in sync, where the pause / record button on the camcorder triggers both at the same time, making each a shot for shot copy of the other, or you can have the tape roll independantly of the FireStore. There are a variety of options but the point is that this method gives you an edit-ready file which bypasses the video capture process while at the same time providing you with a copy on tape for archive and backup purposes.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the use of an editing deck in digital video? After I import video to my computer from my camera, it doesn't enter the picture again for the rest of the post-production process -- do others do things differently? Or is the deck only useful to teams, so someone can be out filming with the primary camera at the same time someone else is importing footage?

The primary advantage of a deck is that it keeps the camera free for shooting video. A camera that isn't shooting is a camera that isn't earning.

From the perspective of an enthusiast, should I be concerned about the extra wear and tear of using my camera as a deck? Of course like James said, I'm only capturing and then I'm done with it. I would say it's no more than a weekly occasion to be used like this.

From the perspective of an enthusiast, should I be concerned about the extra wear and tear of using my camera as a deck? Of course like James said, I'm only capturing and then I'm done with it. I would say it's no more than a weekly occasion to be used like this.

use your cam as much as you want. just try to use always the same tapes. if the heads are dirty, clean them carefully. and if one day you have some serious trouble buy a firestore and dont use tapes anymore. anyway for the majority of people they will change their cam before the heads are used-up.

For personal use, I don't think there's any big issue with using the camera to load your footage. That's what I'm doing. At work we have a DVCAM deck in each suite (as well as Betacam decks), and if we move to some other format, there'll be 2 of those decks too, so the Canon would be out in our particular production environment. But for my own documentary stuff, I'm going to load footage with it. I am using the Panasonic AMQ tapes and I only use a tape one time. I doubt there will be any more than 20 tapes I shoot for the current project, if that many.

When I whine about the lack of a real deck, it's in relation to a production environment. Although the quality of what I'm seeing out of the XH A1 is good enough for our purposes (and we could buy an H1 and a couple of A1s and have enough left over for a couple of decks, if there were any decks, for the price of an XDCAM HD camera alone), we couldn't do that because of the lack of decks. In an ideal world you could load all your footage in advance and then edit it and not need a deck. But in our world, it doesn't work that way, unfortunately.

"Pardon my ignorance, but what is the use of an editing deck in digital video?"

It's a matter of wear and tear. I use my cameras for wedding work and I must have confidence in their performance. I just would'nt feel comfortable capturing, rewinding and rolling tape over the heads for hours with a camera that's vital to my work. That's about it.
Bob

So basically there's no professional deck to capture from?

What's wrong with this picture???

You can use any Sony HDV 1080i deck for capture, as long as it's 60i video that we're talking about. If you plan to use 24F or 30F heavily and you're not comfortable with playing back tapes from the camera or from the little HV10 camcorder-as-a-deck, then you should seriously consider the various available tapeless recording options such as the FireStore.

Or some other camcorder other than Canon HDV, it's up to you.

In all honesty, your tapeless options are less expensive than a deck anyway. As well as being more productive than using a deck, since there's no video capture process involved, thanks to the edit-ready files generated by a tapeless recording solution. But I think we've covered this ground before.

Maybe so. But each time I read about it again, something new gets into this dense head of mine.

Wade, just last week I went back for a client into some footage that was 15 years old. We file all our original tapes basically forever. A hard drive isn't a safe place to store original footage.

Of course 15 years is beyond the manufacturer's expected lifespan of many tape brands under normal storage conditions. Beware of sticky shed!

I worked as an archivist for a couple of years, and there is basically no perfect storage solution. Tapes need to be stored at a constant temperature 15 celcus 20% humidity to ensure maximum longevity.

Some tapes may start to lose their cohesive properties in as little as 5 years, especially when stored in humid locations or where the temperature fluctuates. When they start to deteriorate the magnetic layer starts to come away from the substrate, covering your video heads in a layer of magnetic dust and sticky tape glue. When this happens you can start to say "bye-bye" to your heads.

So you cannot *rely* on tapes, just as you cannot rely on DVDs, HDs, CDs, or pretty much any other format. The only way to ensure you have a retrievable backup is to find out the manufacturer's life expectancy for the particular medium you're using; store it in a cool, dry location; and make sure you copy footage onto new media before this lifespan is up.

Guys, quit getting hung up on the 'deck' thing. If you think more like 'ingest device', then the HV10 makes perfect sense. For HDV it's much cheaper and more compact than a comparable sony deck. Even if canon were to release a so called deck, it would be the guts of an HV10 in larger square case, cost $500 more and not have a lens.

Even if canon were to release a so called deck, it would be the guts of an HV10 in larger square case, cost $500 more and not have a lens.

Yeah, that's it... Where can I get one of those? :-P

Hmmm. Sounds like a business deal... I could order a truck load of HV10's, gut'em and glue them into shoeboxes and sell for $1500 or more... : )

Hey all,

Going to buy this to use as a deck with my soon-to-be-ordered XH-A1, have one big question - can this camera be set to downcovert HDV material from the A1 and play it out as DV?

I edit in dv, deliver in dvcam, so this is a biggie.

Looking to purchase tomorrow or Thurs., so any HV10 users who can help me out, much appreciated.

Thanks,

Stu

can this camera be set to downcovert HDV material from the A1 and play it out as DV?


Yes, page 34 of the manual which you can download at:
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=DownloadDetailAct&fcategoryid=326&modelid=14059

Thanks Jerome (hadn't even thought of the manual).

What kind of deck do you use to feed an NLE if you shoot in 30f/24f? The interlaced Sony HDV decks or the progressive JVC HDV deck?

Neither. Use the Canon HV10 consumer HV10 camcorder as a playback deck. It's the only thing other than an XL H1 or XH A1 / G1 that can play back 24F or 30F video. There's about a dozen threads about this already, so look to those discussions for the specific details. Hope this helps,

I am planning to capture my A1 footage using the HV10 as playback "deck". Are there any objections against this?

It seems to be the standard workflow. Just got my hv10, it's a great little cam and pretty robust as a feeder deck (tested sd dv material ingested into FCP). My A1 is on its way, so I haven't done it first hand, but I did my homework and many people use it as a feeder deck for the A1, which seems to be Canon's intent, as it does play out Canon's 24f format, though it will not shoot in it.

It plays Frame mode and supports 4-channel audio playback as well. As has been stated on this forum numerous times already, it's the closest thing to a feeder deck that you can get.