I will suggest that the slight difference in static resolution and "sharpness" are not issues in frame/progressive mode. Part of the look of the progressive video is the smoothness and it is normal to turn detail way down and get rid of ultra-contrast to make the video look good. This negates any imagined deficit of decreased resolution.

In interlaced mode, where the ultra-crisp and sharp picture is part of the look sometimes, I suppose the more resolution the better. But I've seen a lot of video that would benefit from less "hyper-active" sharpness.

The resolution of Canon's 24f mode looks as good as any of the other 1/3" chip cameras--it's just that its interlace mode resolution is better. In that famous Texas shootout test, the Canon seemed to have the highest resolution, as I recall. You can afford to lose a little and not notice it. The loss is due to the way they achieve 24p from interlaced chips. I shoot most everything at 24fps with my XH A1, and it looks better than what I shot with a $30,000 DSR500 package (and it pains me to say that, but it does, in HDV anyway; I haven't shot SD for a comparison).

The Sony VTR's are incompatible with Frame mode.
Are they compatible with interlaced video from the Canon (1080i)?

Yes, you can play 60i HDV or SD tapes from the Canon on the Sony decks, and you also can play Standard Definition at 24p on Sony decks, just not HDV at 24p.

I always thought that the output of my 24f A1 was just a different form of HDV 60i put into a different readable format, so the basic question is this...

The Sony decks can't play out 30f or 24f properly in HDV mode? Is that what your experience has taught you on this one?

Once again, I thought that 24f and 30f on Canon HDV was just a different form of 60i and it could play out, in essence, because it's all 60i.

Please a little clarification in this thread, so we can all know exactly if Sony decks are completely out of the picture for playback and capture to editors.

I don't have experience with Canon 24f in Sony decks, but I can tell you that Canon 24f is not wrapped in a 60i stream. It is actually a 24 fps .m2t file. No pulldown.

This has been discussed a zillion times. It is, indeed, true 24p, though it's derived from interlace chips. When you play back an HDV 24F shot you get 24 frames in every second--no pulldown, no interlacing. It is progressive. It will NOT play in anything but the Canon HDV cameras. The consumer ones, ie., the HV10 and HV20 will play 24F even if they don't record it (just as Sony's consumer cams will play DVCAM even though they don't record it).

If you capture your 24p footage with a wrong setting, in FCP for example, or drop it into a timeline that is not 23.98, then you will introduce a pulldown because FCP will do that for you.That is not something you want to do--if using FCP, capture in 1080P24 HDV and edit in 23.98 HDV timeline.

If you shoot Standard Definition video instead of HDV, THEN you have the choice of real 24p or pulldown 24p, just like the DVX100 and XL2 cameras do. HDV is only 24p, 30p and 60i.

This has been discussed a zillion times. It is, indeed, true 24p, though it's derived from interlace chips. When you play back an HDV 24F shot you get 24 frames in every second--no pulldown, no interlacing. It is progressive. It will NOT play in anything but the Canon HDV cameras.
That's really bizarre. If it is true 24p, I wonder what's different about the way it's recorded when compared to the JVC HD100? I assume the JVC HDV deck can't play it either? And even the Sony can't play 30f through its analog outputs? Gotta wonder why Canon hasn't produced a deck of their own.

The JVC is 720p and it won't play on anything but a JVC deck. Presumably the Sony version of 24p won't play on anything but Sony. The manufacturers don't necessarily design stuff to make your life pleasant--they design to make more money. The fact that Canon has no deck works to keep it out of more professional applications, in my experience. I know of more than one studio using larger cameras who say they could easily go with a couple of XL H1s and XH A1s rather than replacing bigger more expensive cameras, but without a deck that plays 24p, it's out of the question. You can't have a little consumer camera sitting there for capturing footage with a client looking over your shoulder. It's too awkward and cumbersome and slow. I wouldn't buy them for the company I edit for because of that--we need decks. For indy things and personal documentary work, etc., it's fine, however, just a little cumbersome and not very elegant.

The JVC is 720p and it won't play on anything but a JVC deck. Presumably the Sony version of 24p won't play on anything but Sony.
The JVC and Sony stuff are 'interchangeable', but only through the analog outputs. That's why I was wondering if the Canon 30f stuff would work via component outputs on the Sony or JVC.

The JVC is 720p and it won't play on anything but a JVC deck. Presumably the Sony version of 24p won't play on anything but Sony. The manufacturers don't necessarily design stuff to make your life pleasant--they design to make more money. The fact that Canon has no deck works to keep it out of more professional applications, in my experience. I know of more than one studio using larger cameras who say they could easily go with a couple of XL H1s and XH A1s rather than replacing bigger more expensive cameras, but without a deck that plays 24p, it's out of the question. You can't have a little consumer camera sitting there for capturing footage with a client looking over your shoulder. It's too awkward and cumbersome and slow. I wouldn't buy them for the company I edit for because of that--we need decks. For indy things and personal documentary work, etc., it's fine, however, just a little cumbersome and not very elegant.


For 24f, would it be possible to dub from the Canon playing 24f or whatever, to the Sony/Panny/JVC deck of your choice , and then use the dub to capture to your computer.
I know it adds an addition process step, and somewhat of a pain but you would have a robust deck that clients would be OK with, and that would be more durable than using an HV20, or HV10, as good as they are. I am thinking of picking up a Sony HVR-15 as I shoot mostly 60i for now, but would do the dubbing routine to handle 24f. Does that sound work-able to you?

Probably not. I doubt the deck can convert Canon's 24F signal. Anyway, it wouldn't be a time saver.

Agree w/Bill. And I don't think durability is an issue with the little Canon HV10 or HV20.

Save the step and just use it to get Canon Frame mode into your computer.

Buy a Firestore drive and skip the whole tape deck thing (for capture anyway). The Firestore is cheaper than a deck too.

Just following on from this, if you shoot 25F on an A1 and 25P on a HV20, digitise it all in with a HV10, and work in a HDV 25P1080 FCP timeline (using the easy setup), how do you get your finished work back out to tape if that's what you want to do for archival or whatever?

Neither my HV10 or HV20 will take it in when set progressive (it's all choppy and stop start) but work fine at the 1080i playout settings. Will the footage be ok and progessive at the interlace settings? i.e. still 25F progressive? Or do I need to use an A1 as a deck too for playouts?

thanks for any pointers.

Just returned back from a 3 camera shoot. 2 cameras were JVC HD200's 720p60 while the third was Canon A1 1080i60.

We have the BRHD50 for the JVC footage but I need to buy something that will allow me to digitize the Canon. Whatever I buy I would like it to be able to playback ALL of Canon's formats. I've heard that I can just pick up a Canon consumer camcorder and use it as a feeder deck. Is this true? Looking online it looks as though the HV10 would serve this purpose.

I apologize if this post comes up a lot but I did search and didn't find anything obvious.

Thanks Canon people!

Your choices are the Canon HV10 and HV20 consumer HDV camcorders.

Thanks Chris. Looks like the HV20 has HDMI which would suit my Intensity Pro.

Next thing to do is figure out which format to edit in (720p or 1080i). I'll be testing the Intensity Pro's cross conversion capabilities vs. FCP's mixed timeline options.

Lot's of testing to do!

Justin:

I just edited a piece using both a JVC GR-HD1 (720P30) and XH-A1 (1080i60).

I worked the project as 1440X1080i as my destination was 1080i60 for HD-DVD players and most footage was from the XH-A1s.

Using Sony Vegas 8a, the 720P footage scaled in extremely well and the final result was great at 1080i. It was a little tough to color/sharpness match the two videos, as the A1 settings were a little over the top.

Bottom line, they work well together.

720P is 18k bit rate and 1080i is 25k bit rate. You have smaller files and final product using the 720P.

Jeff, thanks for the reply.

Thus far I have pretty much stayed at 720p which has been producing absolutely stunning 480p standard def DVD's as well as 720p HD DVD's which is why I'm tempted to edit in 720p (I know the workflow so well). I hope the 1080i footage looks good enough when cross converted to 720p. Unfortunately everything I've read so far says that it's easier to cross convert 720p to 1080i.

We shall see.

Anybody else producing 480p DVD's from 1080i source? Wonder how that looks.

Does anyone know of a portable, handy deck that will play back the Canon A1's frame mode? Just looking for something (besides an HV10/20) for a playback deck. Sony has this out there which looks great, but not sure it will be compatible with the frame mode?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/516841-REG/Sony_GVHD700_GV_HD700_HDV_Video_Walkman.html

Canon A1's frame mode? Just looking for something (besides an HV10/20)There is nothing else besides an HV10 or HV20 that will play back Canon's Frame mode.

thanks, that was my thinking but just wanted to make sure!

Just merged together a whole bunch of "which deck for Frame mode" threads into one big 'ol discussion, just to show how frequently it's asked.

If Canon made a deck, and sold one, for every time the question's been asked, life would be good for them.

Hi all,

we need a tape deck for our A1's that is capable of both playing and recording an HDV stream back from the editing software we use.

I read some posts suggesting the use of a canon HV10 camera. Does the HV10 permit recording of an HDV stream off the editing computer? Is it compatible with both 1080i and 25f formats?

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

Cheers

- Balt

I use an HV20 for that purpose and it works fine 1080/60i and 24F from my A1

Will an HV10 work as well? I can't seem to find any difference between the HV10 and HV20 apart from the shape of the case.

Cheers

- Balt

Some argue the HV20 is a bit better than the HV10, but check the HV30 recently announced is sounds and looks even better. Read more info in the HV10/20 forum.

My HV20 camera/deck is showing up tomorrow. I mainly got it as a B camera and to use for playback and capturing.

I assume this is pretty much a straight forward deal, but thought I'd throw the question out to you all just in case.

Is there anything special I need to know about when using the HV20 as a deck for the A1 videos? Any tricks of the trade I should know about? Or is it just another camera acting as a deck... no bells or whistles or fanfare?

Just another camera - nothing different

Anything special I need to know about when using it as a deck? Don't think so, but if there is, I know SOMEONE here knows.

Hey, just moved over from the GL2 (Sold Friday) and will place my order for the A1 Monday (Wife Permitting). Been reading for days and have many questions, but I will keep reading.

I no this is about using the Canon HV20 as a 2nd tape deck, but I don’t understand why a FireStore FSC-HD60 is not used. $1300.00 for the HV20 is more then the FireStore FSC-HD60 $1200 @ B&H. This would cut upload time and save wear on the A1 deck. I no there would be times when a 2nd deck is nice, but a tapeless workflow sounds better. Am I missing something?

Thanks

RC

MacBookPro 2.4 FCS2 – No Camera Yet

$1300.00 for the HV20 is more then the FireStore FSC-HD60 $1200 @ B&H.... Am I missing something?

I would say yes you are missing something. The HV20 is $700 at B&H. Where are you getting this $1300 info from?

Hey, just moved over from the GL2 (Sold Friday) and will place my order for the A1 Monday (Wife Permitting). Been reading for days and have many questions, but I will keep reading.

I no this is about using the Canon HV20 as a 2nd tape deck, but I don’t understand why a FireStore FSC-HD60 is not used. $1300.00 for the HV20 is more then the FireStore FSC-HD60 $1200 @ B&H. This would cut upload time and save wear on the A1 deck. I no there would be times when a 2nd deck is nice, but a tapeless workflow sounds better. Am I missing something?

Thanks

RC

MacBookPro 2.4 FCS2 – No Camera Yet

I just got my HV20 for around $650.

My bad, it was the Canon USA site. Did not look hard except for the price, and it was $999.00 not $1300.00. That is still a lot of cash. Even $650.00 is high. I have spent over $1000 bucks, plus my time, on DV Tapes and I feel like I’m dumping money/time down the drain.

That’s why I asked about the FireStore C and that work flow.

Thanks

RC

My bad, it was the Canon USA site. Did not look hard except for the price, and it was $999.00 not $1300.00. That is still a lot of cash. Even $650.00 is high. I have spent over $1000 bucks, plus my time, on DV Tapes and I feel like I’m dumping money/time down the drain.

That’s why I asked about the FireStore C and that work flow.

Thanks

RC
Ron a Firestone will work great to create a tapeless work flow. The problem comes when using 2 or more cameras the same way. Where you would need 1-2 Firestores for each camera. My shoots tend to be 8-12 hours long.

Actually I would prefer the nNovia HD drives. As the drives are hot swappable. More of an initial investment. But cheaper in the long run. One drive per camera, and an extra disk for backup and swapping out if needed.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/481417-REG/nNovia_QCDECKA2D_QCDECKA2D_A2D2_DV_HDV_Hard.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/443617-REG/nNovia_QCMPSS120_nNovia_QCMPSS120_Mediapac_Cartridge.html

$1300.00 for the HV20...The MSRP for the HV20 has *never* been higher than $1099. The previous model HV10 briefly sold for $1299 but that was a long time ago. Remaining HV20 stock is currently selling for $650 to $750 until they're gone. The model replacing it, the VIXIA HV30, will list for $1000.

Avoid any dealer selling at prices higher than what I've posted here. Hope this helps,

Michael , Thanks for the info, looking at it that way I could see why the HV20 would be very beneificial and practical. I always find myself dreading the tape upload. Im saving for the Firestore C.

Thanks again.

I have seen lots of talk about using a HV20/30 as a capture device. Does the HV10 have the ability to handle the 24F/30F footage as well?

Yes, works well for 1080i as well as Canon 24f and 30f.