I'm trying to put together a good looking and sounding video. I'm making this primarily to find my flaws, so I know what I need to work on before I start my first film in class. I don't have a lot of resources (going to film school, Full Sail, in February, costing $70,000!! for my bachelors, yikes), and I'd like to save as much as possible. Initially I only wanted to spend $1000, but I thought about the potential quality difference and this is what I came up with:

Camcorder: Canon HV20 $775
http://www.amazon.com/Canon-HV20-Definition-Camcorder-Stabilized/dp/B000MUV6BA/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=photo&qid=1195678343&sr=1-1

Shotgun Microphone: DM-50 $138.35
http://www.amazon.com/Canon-Directional-50-Camcorders-Advanced/dp/B00005LD4W

Extra Batterys x2 + minitripod 50.00
http://www.amazon.com/Pro-Power-Capacity-Equivalent-Camcorders/dp/B000O2BOFY/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1195679310&sr=1-9

Carrying Case: Canon SC2000 $50.00 ---- Not getting. Need to find another (larger, cheaper bag). Extra funds can go to better tripod.
http://www.amazon.com/Canon-SC2000-Carrying-select-Camcorders/dp/B0001CXRXY/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=photo&qid=1195678746&sr=1-1

Wide Converter: $140.83
http://www.amazon.com/Canon-WD43-Converter-wider-perspective/dp/B00009R6WI/ref=tag_dpp_lp_edpp_ttl_in?ie=UTF8&qid=1195678851&sr=1-1

1GB SD Card: $16.00
http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-miniSD-SDSDM-1024-A10M-Retail-Package/dp/B0007UQ6LK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1195789416&sr=8-1

IEEE Firewire 11.00
http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-F3N401-06-ICE-4-Pin-6-Pin-FireWire/dp/B00005NIMR/ref=pd_sim_p_title_13

Tripod: 125.16
http://www.amazon.com/Brunton-Tubular-Aluminum-Tripod-removable/dp/B000P41ASW/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1195679390&sr=1-10

Total High Estimate: 1,260.67
Amazon and other websites advertise for slightly cheaper, and I will dig deeper for better pricing/warrenty information.

Things I am hoping to do in my film:
A. Plenty of dialog.
B. I like to direct my films without always using a tripod but I'm an extremely shaky person and don't have the funds for an expensive camcorder that I can put on my shoulder.
C. The tripod that I do use, I'd like to be able to somehow attach wheels on, and smoothly add/subtract height while recording.
D. Audio is a big deal for me, I don't want this to look/sound homemade.

What I own:
-Sony Vegas 7
-Adobe Premiere Pro (don't know very well)
-Adobe After Effects (don't know well, but have video tutorials from a friend).
-Adobe Photoshop (Know very well).
-Construction Lights
-Can Lights
-Small Lights

I've got lighting, I'm in a band and have XLR Beta58 vocal microphones but am unsure how useful they'll be. I've got microphone stands as well, trees for the lights, can lights, construction lights etc. But what I don't have is a good camcorder setup. I am just wondering: Is my setup good? The shotgun mic, the tripod, etc? I don't know anything about film yet, but have been researching quite a lot and hope to get started soon. Thanks everyone!

PS: Last questions:

A.For shooting dialog between two people with one camcorder: Is it best to record the conversation twice, each with 100% of the camera's focus on one person? I wish I had two camcorders but don't have the money.
B. The carrying case seems like it wont fit everything, with all the above listed, do they make good sized bags that can carry all of the above?

I have a good understanding for great audio/music, and would like to portray this video as professionally some of my other works from the digital gaming world.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0yacNusJ6kU --> Crysis. Video taken from about 60 sources.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-bjgsP6FoeE --> Armed Assault. Video created via scripts in the games editor.

Spend that 70k on gear and rent, Filming is an art form that can t be learned in a class room (in my opinion) (and filming IS an art). I have dealt with the parallels in the audio studio world, no amount of classroom schooling will make you a good artist, they can only teach you techniques but that is all, with enough determination you can pick this stuff up on your own, heck , I think this forum will teach you more. I have seen countless of people graduate from "art" schools without enough information to do anything creative, and the ones that do make it out will admit they could have done it without the school. its like riding a bike you can talk about it for years but you'll only learn to be good by riding. you can make alot of cheesy short films for 70k and learn 100 times what you would learn from art school. just my opinion... and most of the time the degree will not get you anywhere... sorry for ranting but I have seen too many people owing big time school loans with no real knowledge or experience, and end up being stage hands or PA's anyway. and still having to learn things the hard way. spend that money on gear and just start doing it. please forgive if I have insulted anyone. this is just something I feel strongly about.

Carrying Case: Canon SC2000 $50.00You don't need a $50 Canon-branded carrying case... just go to your local discount store and find a no-name one for $15. Put the unspent $35 toward a better tripod.

The big film school thread:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=11156

The thing is: My Family (including all 6 grandparents, step mom, dad, mom, aunts and uncles) expect me to get some sort of degree, no matter what its in. They haven't stopped lecturing me on the importance of a college education since I was 5. I know its my life and I should choose to do with it what I will. Except its near impossible in my situation. Besides, the school will be a great place to start networking with fellow new filmmakers. Perhaps with this setup, and some of the school equipment we can create some small flicks with the spare time we have. Plus, this setup will kinda tell me whether or not I should invest in better equipment. I don't wanna dump 70k on school OR a film setup to find out that I have no talent.

I like the bag/tripod idea, good call.

My 2 cents worth? Go for the degree, it's worth every cent.

You have NO idea where you'll be in 10 years time with anything. I guess you're about 19, maybe? A smart 19 if so.

The changes in society, yourself and the entire market in that time mean just one thing - get the qualification, do the best with what you have in the interim and, most importantly, enjoy it.

If you want to become an empashioned film maker, you'll find out soon enough once you get to college, and have been able to take on board the attitudes and mindset of the staff and students there.

For all you know, in 10 years time you will have discovered a pashion for fashion, a yen for heaps of filthy lucre on the stockmarket, decided to build a boat and sail the world, or be quite content to do a 9 - 5 with a salary and 2.4 kids.

Who knows?

Certainly not I, nor anybody else on DVinfo.

So for the moment, keep it simple, get the gear you can afford (you'd be suprised - or not, at what you can do with very simple gear) and just enjoy it!

And remember, what you don't have, you can probably beg, borrow or (if absolutely neccesary) steal (temporarily) to achieve the required ends.

That 2 cents went a very long way indeed! (Can't say that of much nowadays).


CS

Thanks for the moral booster! It went down for a bit there. I was thinking this over for a few hours and weighed the pro's can cons:

Facts:
I've had a passion for film for 11 years. (I am 19, you were correct).

Pros of the school:
-Meet new friends, who will be an important part of my future.
-Establish a hardworking outlook on the industry by focusing diligently on coursework.
-Getting a professional mindset.
-Having an actual degree
-Getting away from the stresses of home
-Being able to work with professional equipment
-Being able to talk with professors that are currently in the industry and gaining insight from them.

Cons of the school:
Leaving high-school friends behind for a minimum of two years
Cost financially, loans, etc.

Worries:
Finding a job after I graduate. But I guess that's up to me to make sure that I make the connections I'm seeking, and to work as hard as I can in order to ensure my future.

=========================

Other than that, great! Now, I'm really hoping that we can get to this camcorder purchase. Are the parts worth purchasing? Does this shotgun mic work well in dialog scenes? I know it isn't a $5000 microphone, but will it give it the sound like it isn't coming from the family camcorder?

It's probably extremely worthwhile to PA (or do other work... extras... catering... etc.) on some sets to see if you want to get into production. You'll have a good idea of what the job is like (which you don't experience in film school) and you'll learn a lot (more than film school).
You should do this regardless of whether or not you go to school.

2- Are you paying your own tuition? If so... you'll graduate with some serious student loans and it might take you a while to pay them off. Film school by itself won't help you land any good-paying film/video jobs (except maybe non-production jobs like sales). If you graduate with $70k in loans and make $20k/yr minus living expenses... that might be unpleasant.

Your parents have the best of intentions... and it's their job to encourage you to go get a degree... but think carefully before you end up in debt. They likely don't want to see you drowning in debt.

Anyways, many of these issues are covered in the big film school thread. If there's one thing to keep mind, I would get some real world experience by PAing on some professional sets. It's not hard and you'll get informed about what you're getting into (e.g. film shoots tend to have long hours... at least 10 hours).

3- Certain credit cards will extend the warranty on your purchases, so that might help. There are conditions to that... read the fine print (you have to pay the whole purchase, not for business use, not used, you need to keep all your receipts, etc.).

4- Check out the site's sponsors
I'd definitely visit bhphotovideo.com
http://www.dvinfo.net/sponsors/

5- Tripod: Can it pan smoothly without sticktion? (Sticking when you start and stop the pan.) If you plan on adding elements that add weight (e.g. 35mm adapter, rods, etc.), can it support that weight?

If not then you might want to look at a better tripod (unfortunately they cost a lot more).

Can you shed some light on "sticktion" and "35mm adapter, rods, etc."? I'm not sure what these are.

Spend that 70k on gear and rent, Filming is an art form that can t be learned in a class room (in my opinion) (and filming IS an art). I have dealt with the parallels in the audio studio world, no amount of classroom schooling will make you a good artist, they can only teach you techniques but that is all, with enough determination you can pick this stuff up on your own, heck , I think this forum will teach you more. I have seen countless of people graduate from "art" schools without enough information to do anything creative, and the ones that do make it out will admit they could have done it without the school. its like riding a bike you can talk about it for years but you'll only learn to be good by riding. you can make alot of cheesy short films for 70k and learn 100 times what you would learn from art school. just my opinion... and most of the time the degree will not get you anywhere... sorry for ranting but I have seen too many people owing big time school loans with no real knowledge or experience, and end up being stage hands or PA's anyway. and still having to learn things the hard way. spend that money on gear and just start doing it. please forgive if I have insulted anyone. this is just something I feel strongly about.

Im with you Gerry, i spent 3 years in college, it did very little to help, you get access to equipment and you get to meet people but thats about it. I learned what i know from making films.

Andy.

Im with you Gerry, i spent 3 years in college, it did very little to help, you get access to equipment and you get to meet people but thats about it. I learned what i know from making films.

Andy.

Higher education has nothing whatsoever to do with acquiring job skills, even in a technical area such as filmmaking. Education has to do with shaping one into a perceptive and critically thinking person who is aware of the cultural path that has led to his existance and shaped his world and who is able to contribute something to the future. Any employment benefits or career related skills that may arise from that crucible are purely coincidental.

Education has to do with shaping one into a perceptive and critically thinking person who is aware of the cultural path that has led to his existance and shaped his world and who is able to contribute something to the future.

Steve, that's an excellent assessment of an ideal, modern, liberal arts education.

In the context of being a filmmaker, I would add that a higher education (of any kind) can give you the tools to speak from a particular point of view. I have an Honours Degree in Sociology and am conscious that it informs every project I do.

Brandon,

Full Sail is a great place to begin your journey. As you can already see, there are those who go to school, and those that don't. The fact that you have so many questions makes you a perfect candidate for school, in my opinion.

It is at school that you will learn about all of these tools that you are looking for answers about. You will spend time with like-minded individuals who share your passion. Students more so than instructors. What it will do is provide a frame-work for you to learn the tools to make films.

I agree with some who say that the "art" of filmmaking is best learned behind a lens, but Full sail will put you behind that lense with people that know the answers to your questions.

Personally, I would hold onto the cash until you get into the program. They have gear that you will utilize while you are there. You will "discover" more about what you want or need as you go along.

Over and over, new college students run out and buy books and supplies before they even meet the professor, only to find that he isn't going to use the book listed in the syllabus. I think this will be the same.

Although it is fun, and tepting to run out and purchase everything you believe you need right now. Wait until you are there. You'll have time to gather your tools. It won't be a one-time expenditure, you will be purchasing, designing, creating and improvising from here on out.

If your path is full-sail, don't be swayed by folks who think education is a waste of time. Everyone takes different paths to achieve their goals.

To work as anything that pays in this field, you need education, experience, or both. Press on.

Brandon:

1- "Sticktion" is a (silly) made-up word (and I don't think many other people use it). Don't worry about it.

Anyways the key point is whether or not the tripod can let you do smooth camera moves. If you play around with the cheesier tripods, they will kind of stick when you start and stop a pan. You don't want that.

2- Red Rock Micro has an example of a 35 adapter, matte box, rods, etc. (I should point out that you can make films without any of those toys.)

http://www.redrockmicro.com/

Granted, it may or may not make too much sense to get a tripod that supports more weight than you need. You might just want something that's good enough and light.

Those are like 5000 dollar tripods though... :(

1) buying the cameras - don't forget B&H or any of the other DVInfo sponsors. Amazon is great but the specialty stores actually are staffed by people who know cameras. I know B&H has a HV20 kit that I've been eyeing for a while:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/493494REG/Canon__HV20_2_96MP_CMOS_HDV.html

And most people don't know this, but you can haggle with specialty stores. You can't haggle with amazon.

2) As for film school... Your parents are right, go to to University. I won't repeat what the others have said. But I will add that people always focus on the monetary cost of school but they never focus in on the cost of not going to school. In 2006, the US Census Bureau did a study and found that the average College graduate earned a $51,206 a year, while the average high school graduate earned $27,915, and those with no high-school diploma earned $18,734.

University is a four year investment that will likely double the income you make over the course of your life. That's a no brainer.

Those are like 5000 dollar tripods though... :(

That's why it's better to wait until you are a bit farther along before spending the money to buy such gear. Use the school's when you get there, or if you need it in the meantime, rent. If the desired result is quality that appears on the screen, $100 spent on a day's rental of pro gear is money better spent that would be $250 spent on purchasing marginally performing consumer stuff.

Higher education has nothing whatsoever to do with acquiring job skills, even in a technical area such as filmmaking. Education has to do with shaping one into a perceptive and critically thinking person who is aware of the cultural path that has led to his existance and shaped his world and who is able to contribute something to the future. Any employment benefits or career related skills that may arise from that crucible are purely coincidental.

That sounds very noble, you have to aknolage that you don't NEED higher education to do what you just said and in fact may be better for certain people to choose NOT to do higher education, especially with the internet so full of information. A naturally gifted person with a vision may be hindered by higher education and may even put him/her off that path alltogether there by robbing the world of a talented filmmaker . life lessons (simply being alive) can make you a critically thinking perceptive person, we don't all wonder around bumping into walls untill we go to university. i believe that if a person wants to better themselves through knowlage there are many ways to do so, if Brandon for example chose not to go to uni he would seek the information else where.

higher education is one of many paths and not always the right one



Andy.

Those are like 5000 dollar tripods though... :(

I wasn't suggesting a $5,000 tripod. For prosumer cameras, you should be able to find a very reasonable one for maybe $600-700. I haven't played around with tripods in that price range so don't take my word on it. Maybe something a lot cheaper than that would work too.

This looks interesting...
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/167149-REG/Velbon_CX470_CX_470_Tripod.html
though I have a feeling it's crap (I seen a Velbon tripod fall over and break). But look... if you can physically get your hands on a tripod like that in a store and see if it pans smoothly... then it might be worth getting. For that price... it's a reasonable amount of money to spend.

Beyond that tripods have frills that are handy but you don't need any of these. The frills:
Quick release plate. (Convenient; this is worth getting)

Bubble (to indicate balance/levelness). Really high-end tripods have a light for the bubble to help you see in the dark... though you could just use a flashlight.
Adjustable ?friction? (not sure what the right term is. Helps you control speed of panning)
Locks (lock off movement... e.g. if you want to pan, you can lock tilt.)
Counterbalance (many cheaper tripods don't have this); HV20 is too light to need this.
The tripod's weight (e.g. carbon fibre legs lower weight)
Adjustment to move the camera forward/backwards so everything is balanced.
Easy to adjust height
Ball level (if the ground is uneven, you can just level the head itself without having to mess around with the height on two legs)

2- $100 spent on a day's rental of pro gear is money better spent that would be $250 spent on purchasing marginally performing consumer stuff.
In my opinion, it's reasonable to own some cheap gear to play with and learn. It sits in your house and you can take the equipment out any time and play with it and test things (e.g. play around with lighting). This is not something you can do with rental gear. You can buy some minimal gear and get your feet wet. And the HV20 is *really* interesting in that it can put out some really nice images (given some talent of course).

On the other hand, if you want to shoot some more serious stuff then rental is definitely worth looking at.

Alright, I hate to say, but this threads getting out of hand. I have a budget, and I cannot go out and buy a tripod that's 80% of all the money that I have.

If anyone could reassess my situation, link, and budget from main post I'd really appreciate it.

Brandon i suggest dumping the tripod you picked out and the wide angle converter and buying this http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00009R6FZ?smid=A17MC6HOH9AVE6&tag=dealtime-ce-mpfeed-20&linkCode=asn the quality of the tripod is more important than a wide converter and the 503 head is a good solid head, that thing you picked looks tension compensated which is really no good. Get the converter when you make more money.It may be a little bit more of a streach but you'll thank me later. BTW i use the 501 head and its great.

Andy.

If you're going with the Canon HV20 then a tripod with the Manfrotto 701RC head (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/496288-REG/Bogen_Manfrotto__190XDB_Tripod_Legs_Black_.html) would be a decent choice. Skip the Canon DM-50 and get a mic you can boom, like the Rode Videomic. If you advance any further, you will upgrade everything I just mentioned, but then you already knew that.

If I was in your position, I'd skip the technical school, and get a degree from a good liberal arts/sciences college. I believe it will offer you a more well rounded view of the world to inform your filmmaking. The more well rounded your point of view, the more interesting your films ... well that's the theory anyway, right?

[EDIT] I suppose there's always the school of hard knocks, but either way, there's a price to pay.

I will give my one post on the subject...

Don't waste your money on Full Sail!
Go to a local school and get a degree you can use in any field.
Get your BA, and live at home so you can save your money for things you will need.
Then visit all of the production houses in your area, and let the owner know that you are getting your business degree,
but you would like a job in the film world when you graduate, and that you would be willing to learn their business from the ground up if they would give you an internship.

1. That would give you access to professional gear, so you don't waste you money on consumer quality crap.
2. Training from industry professionals.
3. Camaraderie with your peers, and networking with local professionals in the industry.
4. A degree you can use in any field!

Thousands of people visit this site, and I would wager that the majority of them would love to be film makers.
While they may have a passion for film, great ideas for a short, or an eye for the shot, most lack the essentials to run a successful business.

Good Luck with your Life!

I thought about the previous suggestions and am weighing them heavily.

Perhaps I could go to my state university, as it is almost free with grants from the government, take a lot of classes (18cr), live in a dorm, and perhaps try for an internship at a nearby film production company (perhaps 9 hours per week or something). That might work... I'll feel a little more secure knowing I have a bachelors degree in something that I can apply anywhere. I'll then have some financial backbone to pay for a film setup, and if I want, go to film school (New York Film Academy) for 2 years and get my masters degree (they accept anyone with a bachelors in any field). I'll be away from home (living in a dorm), learning aspects of film in spare time, and not abandoning all my friends just yet, and I can work on a side project with them.. Sounds good...

Now if I knew the best place to start...
Heres a list of production companys in milwaukee: http://www.thecityofmilwaukee.com/videoproduction/index.html

I don't know which is best, however. We do have a Film Festival in town, and they have internships/volunteer work: http://www.milwaukeefilmfest.org/htmdocs/about_miff/internships.html

But am unsure as to which is best again. Any help appreciated.
-Oh, Edit: Any idea on which degree I could take that would not only be in great demand, pay well, but also apply to helping me create films? I've already taken some PC classes, and considered taking more and perhaps majoring in a computer science degree but am not sure.

Brandon:

1- "Sticktion" is a (silly) made-up word (and I don't think many other people use it). Don't worry about it.

Actually, "stiction" is short for "static friction" as opposed to dynamic friction. It referrs to the initial "grunt" you need to give things to get them moving from a standstill.

i would have to agree with going to school in-state, and not for film. I am not up to date on full sail, but do you actually come out with a degree, or a diploma? I went to film school, the only thing it was good for was to have the words "film school" on my resume, and I made some good friends. as far as what I learned....I could have learned it all out of a book, and on my own. like it was said before, you cant learn creativity. so if you need school, do whatever you want, but save the money, dont spend it on film school, and buy some awesome equipment later....but in the end, its all up to you man.


also, how much FILM will you actually get to play with at full sail, the school I went to, we shot like 1500 feet of film and that was it, everything else was video......laaaaaaame. make sure full sail is actually where you want to go before you spend the money.

good luck bud.

--edit--

so I checked out the website, and at least you do walk out with a degree, thats nice. but cmon....math? you have to take a MATH course??! glad its you, not me.

My 2 cents worth? Go for the degree, it's worth every cent. CS

I'm with Chris on this. Before I went to film school, I knew how to write stories--but not how to write screenplays. I knew how to take photos--but not how to compose a shot with actors moving in it. I didn't know how to take a story idea, shape it into a screenplay that works (a complicated matter!), put together the many, many elements needed to shoot the film, edit it, and finish it. I didn't know how make a movie, even though I had the desire to do it.

Now I do, thanks to school. And no one can ever take that--or my degree--away from me. So go to film school--it's a great opportunity. Think of the people you'll meet! They will feed your creativity. (You'll need them to crew for you. You do the same for them, too!)