Okej - my friend Per-Axel (the guy with two (!) EX1-cameras) has been out and done some filming today. He did not have much time and I had specifically asked him for som HDV (25 Mbit 1080i) material to test Avid-compatibility so that's all I've got for now.

Two fast moving clips of some indoor tennis to put the HDV-codec at a test!

The clips are straight from the cards with all metadata and files just like they are on the SxS-card.

You can download them from my ftp-server. Okey guys - don't overload my Internet connection now please. ;-)

ftp://kamrat.selfip.net/public/EX1/

Ooops - seems like he has already uploaded some more... Don't know what it is yet - have a look for your self... :-)

Maybe it's just me, but the FTP server asks for a username / password, and anon login doesn't work.

Maybe it's just me, but the FTP server asks for a username / password, and anon login doesn't work.

And more precisely, 3 out of 5 directories do...

Plenty of server space and bandwidth for hosting video clips right here at DV Info Net.

Just shoot me an email (chris at dvinfo dot net) for uploading privs.

I and Per Axel shot the footage. I have put them on a webpage here

http://ex.bolanski.com/

Please don't put them on other ftp servers, then nobody will know where they came from or what kind of files they are.

/Andreas

The 720/25p inside dimly lit room is awesome. Which one of you guys is at the computer?

The tennis interlaced video does show some shimmering on the dark-greenish "walls", though...

The 720/25p inside dimly lit room is awesome. Which one of you guys is at the computer?

The tennis interlaced video does show some shimmering on the dark-greenish "walls", though...

That would be me in the room.

/Andreas

Okay. With the 1080/50i tennis footage I had the same results as I did with the 1080p/24footage from Germany.

Liquid imported as MXF and edited right into a 50i timeline. In fact although it rendered, it edited into a 60i timeline with no problem. Playback looked good.

Xpress. The same problems as before with 25p. Imported as mp4 and MXF in a 50i and even 50i HDV as a clip but played back green.

I'll keep working on it. I'm checking my preferences to make sure I'm not overlooking a setting.

Cheers

Big Edit: Okay. Now it works fine. I think I might have had OMF vs. MXF in Media Creation Setting but I reopened the app and it worked great.

So, we know that the 25mbit SP 1080i works on Avid's.

EDIT #2: I imported the the into a 25p project for kicks and it worked. So what that tells me is that Avid support 25mbit but not the HQ 35mbit mode.

Edit # 3: Downloaded new codecs version 1.6 and 35mbit MXF worked. Cheers.....

All the "tennis" clips are awesome, but the girls playing tennis are even more beautiful.

Everything gets properly exported to mxfs by the clip browser, and opens perfectly in Vegas 8.0a here.

The shimmering is something that remains me of my V1E handling of a single colour, darkish areas though... Even more impatient to test them side by side!

Please don't put them on other ftp servers, then nobody will know where they came from or what kind of files they are. Just to clarify, if they're hosted from our FTP server, everybody will know where they came from (because they're posted under your name) and what kind of files they are (because we indicate that plus other information).

It's certainly your right to turn me down, but please don't complain when traffic from DV Info Net soaks your bandwidth. My offer continues to be extended to you and anyone else who cares to share their EX1 video, as DV Info Net's server can easily handle the load that our visitors put on it while keeping your own resources untaxed. Just an FYI,

I used ffmpeg to do conversion of the pre released .mp4 clips and when I read the license agreement of the Clip Browser I saw it used ffmpeg.

My guess is it uses ffmpeg to do the unwrap thing to mxf. So ffmpeg can be used stand alone to do great stuf on the Ex1 mp4 files.

EX1.mp4 to DV25 (PAL)
ffmpeg –i inputfile.mp4 –f dv –s 720x576 output.dv

EX1.mp4 to Mpeg2 and wav
ffmpeg -y -i inputfile.mp4 -vcodec copy -f mpeg2video outputfile.m2v -acodec pcm_s16le outputfile.wav

EX1.mp4 to DNxHD 36Mbit and wav (-b 36, 120 or 185)
ffmpeg -y -i inputfile.mp4 -vcodec dnxhd -b 36Mb -an outputfile.mov && ffmpeg -y -i inputfile.mp4 -vn -acodec pcm_s16le outputfile.wav

DNxHD from ffmpeg is 1080 only at the moment and no sound so a separate wav file is needed. For 1080/50i files use -vcodec dnxhd -b 36Mb -flags +ildct

The reason for the test footage is to get our Media Composers to play nice whit the Ex1, so I'm going to try all kind of solutions this week and this ffmpeg stuff is what I did before we got two Ex1's

/Andreas

Thanks Andreas. That's great info we could all use.

How do I add the files to final cut pro? (5.1.4)
When I try file, import, sony xdcam, it brings me to the xdcam transfer
application (2.1), but this does not give me the option to add the downloaded files.

I think you'll need FCP 6.0.2. Alas for me I'm not getting any further than you even though I have FCP 6.0.2 on two different computers (one PPC and One Intel). I use Clip Browser and it places files in a BPAV folder. That folder is grayed out when I try to point to it with the xdcam xfer plugin (2.1).

How do I add the files to final cut pro? (5.1.4)
When I try file, import, sony xdcam, it brings me to the xdcam transfer
application (2.1), but this does not give me the option to add the downloaded files.

Thanks Andreas for the footage.
It looks good, though I see the tennis stuff is a bit over exposed.
This would of looked a lot better.
Were you using gain?


1080 25P HQ resized to 1112x634 (Don't ask... LOL)
http://members.cox.net/vx2000/EX1_1080_25P_HQ_Resized.bmp

Thanks Andreas for the footage.
It looks good, though I see the tennis stuff is a bit over exposed.
This would of looked a lot better.
Were you using gain?

I don't think we used gain. Per Axel came up with the idea to go over to the tennis courts so I tagged along. It could have been better I guess but we only wanted to get files to work with and share some files.

Earlier I wrote that I and Per Axel took the footage, that should have been Per Axel and I because I only shot some footage and Per Axel set the camera up :)

We also have some outdoor footage of the street behind the University but it was really boring footage since the weather is really dull here right now.

I can put it up on my web page.

http://ex.bolanski.com

Andreas,

I'm logging on to your website and I can't get the clips to play. I have a G4 and the latest version of quicktime... what am I doing wrong?

Thanks,
Wesley

Andreas,

I'm logging on to your website and I can't get the clips to play. I have a G4 and the latest version of quicktime... what am I doing wrong?

Thanks,
Wesley

Try vlc http://www.videolan.org

I
We also have some outdoor footage of the street behind the University but it was really boring footage since the weather is really dull here right now.

I can put it up on my web page.

http://ex.bolanski.com

Andreas, I can't find it - would be interesting to see how it resolves dull scenery. Have you actually put it on the server?

As Andreas already has written we more or less took the camera out of the box and shot a few first samples just to be able to get some EX-files to play with and also share with you all (thanks also to Ola).

Yes, the tennis pictures are a bit over exposed. We used no gain but let the camera auto iris on a neutral motif, then went manual. For white balance we used preset. The hall was lit by some quite evil fluorescent lights but we thought it looked okay in the LCD (which by the way is excellent!).

I have noticed that the auto iris seems to be over exposing slightly. This is a very common behaviour in my experience, but you can adjust the auto iris on the EX1 so it shouldn't be a problem (if you want to use the auto iris!), but we need to some more thorough testing before we make our minds up and make any changes.

Hopefully we will get time to do some more testing today and tomorrow, and we will keep you all posted.

Ackel

Andreas, I can't find it - would be interesting to see how it resolves dull scenery. Have you actually put it on the server?

Since I wrote "I can put it up on my web page." I haden't at the time. It's there now.

/Andreas

Thanks, Andreas!

I'm watching them with mixed feelings. The picture is incredibly sharp (especially the progressive stuff), but again - (like the greenish wall in the tennis hall) - I can see fair amount of shimmering in the dark trees area of it. It's foggy, yes, but the fog doesn't move, and here one can see the exactly same noise pattern as on the V1E!

As expected, the movement with 720/50p is fabulous - sooo much smoother than with 25p...

I wonder what others think of this...

I have just put together a short selection of clips I've taken this morning. The file is 335Mb in size and is 720/25p saved as quicktime straight out of final cut.

Would anyone be interested in hosting it or shall I compress it?

Paul.

Thanks, Andreas!

I'm watching them with mixed feelings. The picture is incredibly sharp (especially the 25p stuff), but again - (like the yellowish wall in the tennis hall) - I can see fair amount of shimmering in the dark trees area of it. It's foggy, yes, but the fog doesn't move, and here one can see the exactly same noise pattern as on the V1E!

As expected, the movement with 720/50p is fabulous - much smoother than with 1080/25p...

I wonder what others think of this...

How are you viewing the footage? Im looking using VLC and i don't see anything i'd call shimmering. I guess there are many types of decompressors and maybe there's some kind of post effect you're seeing. Can you try different viewers to see if you see different results?

What i do see is a lot of constantly shifting noise, like a high ISO cmos dSLR. It's not necessarily an objectionable effect but it is 'different'. Im very surprised the compressor is able to deal with this high frequency noise (it's not macroblocking but very fine pixel leve noise (at least it looks like that))

Do we know what gain or other settings these were recorded with.

cheers
paul

Paul, we're probably just using different terms to describe the same phonomenon. Anyway, I can see it in EX1 clip browser, VLC, WMP and in Vegas, so it's there...

Here's a compressed version of the clips I shot today. I made a schoolboy error and in my haste to get some daylight shots forgot to white balance and so I've edited the colour balance of some of the clips.

Most of the shots are 720/25p with no picture profile selected (standard). The only exceptions are the pegs, which is shot at 1080/25p and downscaled in post, and the shot of the tap which was done using over cranking to 60p and with CINE1 selected as a picture profile.

http://www.olikai.com/ex1/

Piotr,

Yes, it could be that. I've found all of the footage i've seen so far show this type of noise. As i said it looks like high iso dSLR noise in motion, which could be an artifact of CMOS.

I would like to know what the settings were on the shoot. Andreas, i really appreciate you guys putting this out there. any chance for some shooting specs are have you already supplied that and im being a bit blind at the moment?

Of course it could be interesting to see whether the same types of denoise tools can deal with it or surpress it a bit.

Paul - that footage looks fantastic, that's certainly shown off DOF to great effect. Of course i have to ask - any chance of full captured files at some point?

thanks everyone!
paul

Here's a compressed version of the clips I shot today. I made a schoolboy error and in my haste to get some daylight shots forgot to white balance and so it's a little bit blueish... D'oh! But I still think it looks lovely, and check out the DOF!

http://www.olikai.com/ex1/

Paul, thanks - the DOF is really impressive and usable on the EX1!

Piotr,

Yes, it could be that. I've found all of the footage i've seen so far show this type of noise. As i said it looks like high iso dSLR noise in motion, which could be an artifact of CMOS.

I would like to know what the settings were on the shoot. Andreas, i really appreciate you guys putting this out there. any chance for some shooting specs are have you already supplied that and im being a bit blind at the moment?

Of course it could be interesting to see whether the same types of denoise tools can deal with it or surpress it a bit.

Yes I agree - there are settings in the Picture Profiles that could probably alleviate this, but surely at the expense of the sharpness...

Can anyone shoot some test footage indoors whilst a flashgun is fired off please, so as to see whether there is any issue with this scenario? Thanks.

Apart from the (CMOS inherent?) noise or shimmering, resembling that on the V1E - I was very curious how the EX1's 25p (in HQ, I believe it's native and not PsF) will behave when forcibly deinterlaced. I opened the HQ 1080/25p in VLC, set deinterlacing to "bob" - and voila! The line twitter is here, as well - just like with the V1E's 1080/25PsF.

My only hope is that when fed though HDMI the native 25p (or 24p) signal will be indeed treated by full hd TV's as progressive, and deinterlacer will not kick-in...

Try vlc http://www.videolan.org

That worked! Thank you!

... But I still think it looks lovely, and check out the DOF!
...Paul,

Do you want to comment a little more on how significant the DOF difference is between 1/3 and 1/2 chips? I wasn't expecting anything so dramatic. Thanks!

Paul,

Do you want to comment a little more on how significant the DOF difference is between 1/3 and 1/2 chips? I wasn't expecting anything so dramatic. Thanks!

I wish I could be specific, but all I can say is that it feels like i've just discovered depth of field for the first time. This may be partly due to the way the EX does peaking which highlights the depth of field whilst your shooting.

I tried to set up a comparison for you but it doesn't really show the difference in dof that well, I'll probably need to do something outside where I can get a bit more distance between camera and subject. Here's the shots anyway...

Both cameras set at 25p / 50 shutter / 12db Gain and no presets loaded. Both are white balanced at 6700k.

The room is lit by a single ceiling light and the light coming from my monitors.

Ex is on the left, XH on the right.

Doing this test made me realise that another big factor in my noticing the DOF more is the LCD on the Sony, with the camera's side by side the difference in quality on the LCD's is huge, I struggled to focus the Canon after using the Sony.

Paul,

The DOF seems really shallow!

I thought you were using a 35mm adapter...

I didn't think that going to 1/2 inch chips would make that much of a difference!

Nice.
It will be great to see more examples. Also, I see the EX1 faired better with noise too.

Thank you very much for shooting and posting these clips! It's exciting to see the capabilities first-hand.

When you or another lucky DV Info Net member has a chance I would love to see some sample footage of sports, or footage with similar motion challenges (camera panning and zooming with subjects moving in different directions). 720P 60 would be ideal.... 720P 50 would be fine also.

The 720P50 scene of the cars driving down the street looked pretty good.

Tom

Paul,

The DOF seems really shallow!

I thought you were using a 35mm adapter...

I didn't think that going to 1/2 inch chips would make that much of a difference!

Indeed David. Having used the JVC DV500 and 5000, going back to 1/3" chip cameras stinks. It really is much easier to get nice depth of field with 1/2" cameras (or 2/3" chip cameras, for that matter) whether it be SD or HD.

I and Per Axel shot the footage. I have put them on a webpage here

http://ex.bolanski.com/

Please don't put them on other ftp servers, then nobody will know where they came from or what kind of files they are.

/Andreas

Content has been removed from server. I wish you would take Chris up on his kind offer to host your content.

Content has been removed from server. I wish you would take Chris up on his kind offer to host your content.

Tom - yes, I agree.

I put up a file with all formats that can be used for frame rec recording as a zip file. The card structure is complete in the zipfile.

And I will not use other host than mine, I have good reasons for it so lets not keep that discussion going. Don't set up mirrors without asking me first, but I guess the answer will be no please don't.

I have a new hosting for the files now and maybe the old files will be online again if I find the time to. But the Tennis shots will not be online again and there is a good reason for that to.

ex.bolanski.com

Andreas thank your for the vignette tests!
Question, was the aperture wide open for these tests shots?
If it has a vignetting problem, you will see it more with the aperture wide open.

I did not see any vignetting issues in your samples. I believe some of us wonder if you were to pan the camera from left to right while doing this test, would a vignetting issue show itself?


Hey, is it just me or is this camera extremely clean!
I can not believe shooting the wall in that low light condition that the image is that clean!
Amazing. It's also has a lot of detail.

About 4 to 5 seconds into Andreas' 1080p25 clip there is a very slight darkening in the upper left corner. Likewise in the 720 clip (which zooms out rather than in) there is the same slight darkening toward the wide side.

Both of these seem to happen at the same focal length on the lens. It seems to be a less severe version of what Paul Joy is describing, in that it does not happen at either zoom extreme, but at a point in the middle, close to the wide side.

This slight darkening, combined with OIS and different aperture or focus settings could be what's causing the more extreme cases.

What's happening on Andreas' camera is perfectly acceptable to me, and I won't cancel my order over it. On a film camera this would be considered within spec (I've seen much worse than that make it to the big screen). But if it got much more extreme than that I wold start to get concerned.

Yes, it's "very-very" slight. It may not be noiticable at all for some. But you may be right - what will it look like if the camera is panned with OIS on?

I will perform this test at the end of next week.

Andreas thank your for the vignette tests!
Question, was the aperture wide open for these tests shots?
If it has a vignetting problem, you will see it more with the aperture wide open.

I did not see any vignetting issues in your samples. I believe some of us wonder if you were to pan the camera from left to right while doing this test, would a vignetting issue show itself?


Hey, is it just me or is this camera extremely clean!
I can not believe shooting the wall in that low light condition that the image is that clean!
Amazing. It's also has a lot of detail.

I have to check that. I know I used auto focus, I don't remember if i did auto iris or if I set zebra1 to 90% and kept it around there not to over expose it. I know I though of both.

I can do it again if you need to. I didn't know exactly what was needed to show this problem. I could do some panning but I don't have a wall big enough to pan across and if it only shows at some specific point while zooming I need to do allot of pan/zooming.

The wall is a projector screen by the way and the lights were the normal celling lights in our studio, no studio lights used at all.

/Andy

Thank you Andreas for going out of your way and helping us understand the EX1 and any possible issues.

If you're up for it, here's a suggestion on capturing this data:

Please record while running the tests

1. Set the camera for manual operation on a tripod with the Aperture wide open, OIS on.

2. Adjust the room lighting and ND filters to get a fairly bright exposure, but not blowing out the highlights.

3. Hook up an external monitor and start by setting the focal length to 10mm. While keeping the camera stationary, carefully look for vignetting.
Note, based on what we've seen, It may show in the top left corner first.

4. Slowly zoom between 10mm through 25mm and look for the slightest problem.

5. If you see a problem, remember at what focal length the problem is viewed. Now shut off the OIS and determine if the problem still exists.

6. Now, turn back on OIS. Leave the camera's focal point set to where you think you may see the problem. Next pan the camera left to right at a moderate speed. Try this at several different focal point locations between 10mm and 25mm.

7. Ignore everything I've written and perform your own test. LOL




.

Would it work whit a green screen wall?

It might be hard to see with the green screen, but you could try.
Also, when panning, you should not not have to pan much.
Just enough to make the OIS system have to work.

Certainly with the camera I had the Iris didn't seem to play any part in the problem, other than to make it easy to see as the image became brighter. On mine the worst effect was between 10mm and 25mm.

I would be happy with my camera if it were the same as Andreas' 720p clip, I can't see any problems there at all.

Paul.

I hear you. It does not appear to have the normal vignetting issue. There has been some discussion about when the camera is jerked around.

I agree, I believe Andreas's camera is fine.
Chris, Barlow still thinks that the SDI captures are a tad softer than the internal. Do you concur?
He agrees it does not make sense, but he's seeing something.

Can you post two identical frames, one XDCAM, the other SDI?