Hi there,

I will soon have several jobs where I'll have to film and record "market research sessions" where 8 people discuss various products. The 8 people will be seated in a semi-circle, all looking roughly towards the interviewer (who will be sat next to the camera and will never be seen by the camera).

The "crew" will consist of just me. I'll be doing the lighting, sound and camera (but I wont be the interviewer!). I have an 8-track hard disk audio recorder (i.e. it can record 8 discreet tracks simultaneously)

My question is: what's the best mic setup to use in this situation? I've been weighing up two options:

Option 1) Give every person a wired lapel mic; record all 8 lapel mics to separate channels and mix in post.

Pros:

High signal-to-noise ratio because the mics can be positioned close to the subject's mouth
visually unobtrusive

Cons:

Takes a while to setup;
susceptible to russell and noises caused by clothing or jewellery;
might fall off;
susceptible to changes in recorded volume as the wearer turns their head whilst speaking (which will happen a fair amount as they engage in conversation with the people around them).



Option 2) Place directional mics (probably cardioid mics) on mic stands in front of the subjects. I would estimate that I should use 1 mic for every 2 subjects. Record each mic to a separate channel.

Pros:

I can setup the mics before the subjects arrive and when the subjects arrive, they just take their seats and we're ready to go;
insusceptible to clothing noise;
not very susceptible to changes in the direction of the subjects' heads;
half as many channels to mix down in post

Cons:

lower signal to noise ratio (i.e. more susceptible to noise like traffic noise);
visually quite obtrusive (which the client isn't keen on)



So - that's my thinking. Any thoughts?? To rule out a few other possibilities:


We can't have a boom operator
It's not acceptable to make the subjects hand round a mic - that will interrupt the flow of the session too much.
I almost certainly wont be able to hang mics from the ceiling


To be honest, I think I'll pack 9 lav mics AND 5 cardioids so I can decide whether to use lavs or cardioid mics when I arrive on location. If the location is nice and quiet then I'll use the cardioid setup; if it's a noisy location (and if I can't stop the noise) then I'll use lavaliers. The locations are scattered all round the UK so I can't do a reccie before the shoot days, unfortunately. However, I will call the owners of the locations to ask if there are any obvious sound issues.

Thanks,
Jack

Hi

If they are at a board table then cardioid mics on table stands would be best. One each and only good quality condensers such as AKG se300 or 480.

If they are seated then wired lavs should do it if you arn't too fussy about seeing cables. If cables are to be hidden then you potentially have a lot of work. Can't see you needing to hide the capsules though. Just watch out for noisey jingly jangly earrings or bangles ( which will jingle all the way through everything) and neck chains that could whack the mic's.

Radios would be good if you have the budget. Then people can move about a bit more.

The 8 track is a great idea if you are too busy to mix during. Maybe you could put the sum of all eight speakers on track one of the camera and the questioner on track two.

Don't worry about sound quality with lavs. As long as they are not being blasted with air from exhaling and the capsule is not touching any clothing which will rusle badly, you will have fine sound for these puposes.

I'd go for 8 wired sony ECM 77's. Omni pattern and facing down to help avoid potential breath blasting issues. They have a AA batery option which will help if your recorder has enough input gain but not 8 phantom power inputs. Sennheiser MKE 2's are good to. I just know I could source 8 sonys easier, particularly as I have 4 already.

As you say mic stands are too obtrusive so they are out.

Good luck

Have you considered one or two boundary layer mics placed on the conference table itself?

Hi guys,

Thanks loads for the great responses.

Sorry, I should have mentioned in my original post that there wont be a table in front of the subjects - the only furniture in the room will be the chairs the subjects are sitting on.

I agree - I should go with lapel mics and ask a the subjects (nicely) to remove any problem jewellery.

Many thanks,
Jack

I agree - I should go with lapel mics and ask a the subjects (nicely) to remove any problem jewellery.

While you mentioned you don't want a boom, you might consider a couple of mics on stands in addition to the lav mics. You can place a Y cable on a couple of the lav mics and free up a channel or two and use the mics on stands as additional sources.

I'm a huge fan of using both a lav mic and boom mic for situations like this, since I've had to use some of those tracks I never thought I would have to use.

Wayne

with all due respect... Y cables should "Never" be used on input side of any device. they may be acceptable to send a source to two different devices but should never be used to save mixer channels. electronically this is a big NO NO. besides the electronic reasons the 2 devices will effect each other phase wise and impedance wise as well.

Hello Wayne and all,

It's really good that you brought this up. I was just paid for a local consult (post mortem) on a shoot where an attempt to create an audio "safety net" by combining mics to one channnel so the "safety net" mic went to the other channel resulted in compromised audio.

You have to be very careful with combining mics for several reasons. First there may be electrical problems due to altered impedances with Y-cords. Second, you don't have the ability to independently change the level of just one of the mics in a split. Third, having two mics open can allow phase problems when person A's voice gets into person B's mic and vice versa, because you can't turn down just one mic.

Not trying to be nasty here, but you can shoot yourself in the foot by taking actions you think are making your audio safer. Usually, the reason these actions are taken is because you are unsure of the right way to do the job or you really don't have a good solution.

Jack, sure, bring all your mics. Your first problem is that you have agreed to be a one-man-band. If you want really good audio in this situation, you need to pay attention to it. You need a qualified person to do that. You simply can not ignore the audio and get the best results. Condition change constantly during a shoot like this and someone needs to be there to keep things sounding good.

I would put each person on his/her own mic. I would not put two people on one mic. You'll have enough trouble keeping one person on mic correctly. Get foam pop filters for each mic. Someone ALWAYS eats the mic or pops like CRAZY.

Eight mics to eight tracks is a good solution in your particular case. Having a real audio person with a console with EQ on each channel and a comp/limiter on the stereo output before your cameras is the best solution; especially since you have no idea what the voice characteristics of the people speaking will be. It is not unusual to have to apply some moderately radical EQ to bring the voices together. Much more effort in post, but safer.

A good 8 channnel automixer can help but even automixers can't replace a good person mixing properly.

I wouldn't bother with "safety net" room mics, especially if it robs you of the tracks you need to get isoed single mics for each person.

Thanks for letting us play.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Hi guys,

Thanks loads for the great responses.

Sorry, I should have mentioned in my original post that there wont be a table in front of the subjects - the only furniture in the room will be the chairs the subjects are sitting on.

Room has usable ceiling? - one would think of hanging two cardioid microphones from the ceiling (3:1 and maybe 'AB stereo').

Hi,

Thanks for all the replies.

Regarding the ceiling - no, I won't be able to hang mics unfortunately.

Ty - I completely agree with everything you say. Here's my current plan for the filming (it looks like there will only be 7 people to record: 6 subjects + one interviewer).

On the 8-track recorder:

* Channels 1-7 will be the wired lav mics.
* Channel 8 will be a cardioid on a mic stand (my "safety net")

On my DVX100a:

* Channel 1 will be a 416 mounted on the camera (I almost certainly wont need this recording but I've got the mic so I might as well use it!)
* Channel 2 will be a mix from the 8-track recorder.

I'll be filming a wide-angle of the subjects using my little Sony HC7e but I wont bother feeding any audio to this camera - it'll just record audio on its built-in mics which I'll use to assist with syncing in post and then ignore.

I'll plug my headphones directly into the 8-track mixer because the DVX's headphone amp hisses like crazy. This will mean that I wont be monitoring the 416 on the DVX but I doubt that will matter. During setup, I'll plug my headphones into the DVX for a minute to check there are no dodgy connections on the 416.

As an aside: I've used my 8-track recorder in conjunction with my DVX100 quite a few times and I'm sure they stay in sync.

Thanks,
Jack

One quick question:

I have 3 Countryman EMW wired lav mics so I need to hire 5 more lav mics. My local hire facility doesn't stock EMWs. Will it matter if I use different mics like COS11s? Will my EMWs match COS11s sufficiently well? (Remember that this isn't a broadcast gig - getting a solid recording for the best price is the name of the game on this project).

Thanks,
Jack

You have to be very careful with combining mics for several reasons. First there may be electrical problems due to altered impedances with Y-cords. Second, you don't have the ability to independently change the level of just one of the mics in a split. Third, having two mics open can allow phase problems when person A's voice gets into person B's mic and vice versa, because you can't turn down just one mic.

I agree with you. But just last week we had to do just this because we had 10 people on wireless and only 8 analog inputs on the Deva. We ended up placing the people with the fewest lines on the joined inputs, and it worked out OK for us. I also boomed, and we have that on it's own channel as well. But, I will admit that it's much easier to do when things are scripted and you know exactly what people are going to say, people aren't stepping on each other's lines and you can keep them separated physically by some distance. So, yes I know this isn't optimal (or recommended), but sometimes you simply have to do what you have to do to get things done.

Wayne

with the wireless mics , you have a "buffered" output even when it is sending mic level out, with wired mics it is definitely a slightly different story with wired mics especially if they are balanced. one thing to keep in mind is that with a Y cable you are tying 2 output devices together. that is like connecting the muffler from one car to the muffler of another. not to mention phantom power issues (if its present). perhaps get some "mic combiners" for your tool kit, whirlwind makes some affordable ones, as well as pro-co. the Y cable has killed many output op-amp in various pieces of gear , non as sensitive as mic preamps.

This reminds me of a horror story situation I was in. I was the sound mixer and boom operator, they were sitting on a u couch 6' long and 6' wide on all sides. It was a nightmare. The place was small so there wasn't much maneuvering around and it was a 2 camera situation. Ideally there should have been 2 boom ops but they were too cheap to spring for a second mic.

I would say, you can do this whole thing with 2 booms on c stands and a lav on the moderator. Preferably 2 boom ops.

8 wireless mics sounds insane. If you have room in your budget for that, you have room for a 2nd person. If you have to use them. Clip them on the outside. Done right you won't get any rustle. And if there's excessive jewelery, especially bracelets, just have them take it off.

If you don't want to do boom, I'd say aesthetically and strategically place microphones in the semi circle or plant them.

If you're doing camera how are you going to monitor and troubleshoot sound?

And out of curiosity, which hard disk recorder are you using?

8 wireless mics sounds insane. If you have room in your budget for that, you have room for a 2nd person.

Try 10 wireless (at one point we thought we were going to have 12 people wired in one scene), with a two person crew, and where you don't have time to wire the talent until they get on set. Totally crazy. But producers are trying to skimp any way they can on productions these days.

Wayne

How about 1 handheld mic passed around?

The perfect solution if you have only one mic. :)

Regards,

Ty Ford

this is a focus group, not a feature production. 8 lavs is NUTS ! you will simply not be able to level and match them, and you will have plenty of phase problems. K.I.S.S, right ! 2 cardoids, maybe 3 should do. maybe a pair of well placed omni's.

now while you are talking about S/N ratio, don't forget every open mic will add its own self noise, channel noise, and room tone additively. 8 Lavs could be very noisy... and I've been there done that with a moron lazy sound guy & 14 open lavs. I was doing lighting on the gig and told him he needed to gate them and he whined " thats a lot of wire and gear"... well maybe it is, but what the @34@#! are you getting paid for! of course guess who gets blamed when the sound loudly picks up the sound of signing lights ( dimmed, T6 bulbs on cyc lights ) - of course the lighting guy gets blamed for a sound problem. with 14 open mics they added together in a very bad way. if they had been gated, no problem.

so that said, a cardoid to cover 2-3 people will be good. you should also try a pair of PZM mics on the table which might work better. just remember, its a focus group, not a big dollar feature, so don't over do it and come back with bad sound because didn't have a dedicated mixer person.

two boomed mics on C stands is also another possibility too, but table mounted PZM's may well work best.

another thing to keep in mind is phasing problems between the lavs if they sit close together. the other question is, in post will you have the time, patience and $ to duck all 7 mics down while only opening up the person speaking ? could be a really painful job to duck all those channels.

No, it's not nuts. Especially if the client wants it a certain way.

The guys from Tylenol's agancy were in town this past summer shooting a focus group...film style. One camera, all medium and up close. I boomed it. Two days of shooting six to eight gals on L shaped couches.

Regards,

Ty

You just said it Ty. You BOOMED it.

Best scenario. 2 booms.

And yes, 8 lavs for a focus group is nutty. (Ty, don't play Devil's Advocate) Though the saying goes, the client is always right, we all know that's not always the case.

Having done these before. My bet is they're filming these sessions for internal use.

Steve, you're right on the money with your comments. There's no table though. They're just sitting in a circle.

Hi Anna,

8 wireless mics sounds insane. If you have room in your budget for that, you have room for a 2nd person.

We're using wired lav mics. They're only £2.50 per day each. I'm not in charge of the budget - I gave the client a selection of quotes and they wanted to go for the cheapest option. Hence it's my job to deliver the best quality at the low price.

If you're doing camera how are you going to monitor and troubleshoot sound?

It is possible to listen critically while operating the camera - I've done it before but I completely agree it's not ideal. Mics falling off or becoming twisted in clothing sounds quite conspicuous though and grabs your attention, even if you're concentrating on framing a shot. I have warned the client that if a lav mic falls off or becomes displaced then I'll have to jump in and quickly correct it. This project isn't going to be broadcast - it is for internal use.

And out of curiosity, which hard disk recorder are you using?

Korg D888.

...We're using wired lav mics. They're only £2.50 per day each. I'm not in charge of the budget - I gave the client a selection of quotes and they wanted to go for the cheapest option. Hence it's my job to deliver the best quality at the low price.

...

Of course they did. Don't ever quote a client for any setup options that won't do the job properly. If your professional judgment knows it will require 2 booms or whatever to do the job right, don't ever suggest options that are cheaper just because they're cheaper. :)

You just said it Ty. You BOOMED it.

Best scenario. 2 booms.

And yes, 8 lavs for a focus group is nutty. (Ty, don't play Devil's Advocate) Though the saying goes, the client is always right, we all know that's not always the case.

Having done these before. My bet is they're filming these sessions for internal use.

Steve, you're right on the money with your comments. There's no table though. They're just sitting in a circle.

Well that's a nightmare for video. You can't shoot that with only one camera. And it pretty much means you have to use lavs unless you have studio booms because regular booms and boom ops will be in the shot.

Yes, on my shoot maybe two booms and two cameras if we had them, but we didn't and, besides IIRC, the original poster siad he was a one-person operation, so a boom op is out.

And in the shoot I was on, the client didn't want a continuous stream so we could stop, set up and roll. The shooting scenario (panelists) suggests a "Meet The Press" style where continuous video is used. Again, you really need 2-3 cameras to do that and that makes multiple booms problematic because they need to be out of the shot and that gets more difficult with every camera you add.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Lavs are fine for this.When mixed properly in post all phasing issues can be sorted pretty well by volume graphing or fader moves. Just like any tv show. As long as levels are ok (24bit will help), then eq and compression can be added in post.

You can fuss to much. Trick is to get it right first time and then go with it.
Even if one mic packs in you will still bring them in on another most likely.

Only one mic will be up at any time due to the multi track so background noise wont (hiss) wont be too bad.

Sure a boom will sound beter but as the original post said, he is by him self.
This does not need boom mic quality though and as Ty said, they would get in the way of shots anyway. That would really annoy the client and everyone else. Sound is best not noticed. No one likes it when one person is too preciouse. Horses for courses. This aint Hollywood, or Pinewood for that matter.

Don't ever quote a client for any setup options that won't do the job properly.

Er, I didn't. At least half the posters on this thread agree that my plan of using wired lavs and a multi-track recorder will deliver the REQUIRED LEVEL OF QUALITY. This isn't broadcast. It's low-budget corporate for in-house use. And, frankly, I'm optimistic that this setup has the potential to deliver sound that would actually be good enough for broadcast.

I've worked with this client countless times and they have always been impressed with the quality of video I've produced for them.

It's important to point out that this job requires lots of travelling and lots of staying in hotels... in other words, having an extra person along for the shoot would push the cost WAY up.

And, as Ty has said, boom ops would definitely get in the shots and that's not acceptable to this client. Even if I had more money, I would still consider sticking with using separate lavs for each subject (except I'd hire a sound recordist to look after the sound while we're filming).

the other question is, in post will you have the time, patience and $ to duck all 7 mics down while only opening up the person speaking ? could be a really painful job to duck all those channels.

Well, that's a good question - it will take quite a while to mix (I'll be mixing it). But I costed up my time and compared that to hiring a boom op (+ large travel expenses + large hotel bills) and it works out cheaper for me to mix in post.

...8 lavs for a focus group is nutty.

I must admit that this comment has been playing on my mind all day and I'm keen to explore it a little more. Anna, why exactly do you think 8 wired lavs recording to an 8-track recorder for mixing in post is "nutty"? As far as I can remember, every talk show, quiz show or panel show I have ever seen on TV has used lav mics. The only time I've seen a boom on a panel show is when members of the audience speak... the panel always have lav mics. I've never seen a "real" focus group on TV but I expect that a panel show is the nearest thing in TV-land to a focus group... so, given that countless broadcasters are happy to use lavs on their panel shows, why shouldn't I use lavs on my little focus group?

Sure, on a major TV show there will be a crew of sound people, all watching for problems and ready to pounce. But, in my situation, it wont be a problem if I need to jump in and correct a mic every once in a while (I suspect my main problem will be quickly diagnosing which mic is causing the problem). I wont have any battery or RF issues to worry about because I'm using good old-fashioned copper to connect the mics to the recorder. And we'll have time at the start of the shoot to wire up all the people (which shouldn't take too long because we don't have to hide the mics). And I'm happy to spend the time mixing in post.

frankly , your camera has inputs for 2 mics and it is well enough.
just use sensitive omni condenser mic, each mounted on a small tripod (at knee level) in front of the guys.

Honestly I say nutty for the simple reason that it's an in-house project. And because you can get your sound just as clear and strong with 2 boom mics.

You mentioned using wired lavs which means you're running cables all over the place. It's a lot to deal with for something that can be so simple. And you're a one man show. If it's no big deal for you to run into frame to fix someone's lav, then why is it such a big deal to set up 2 c stands and boom in? It's a one camera operation, the chances of it coming into frame is unlikely.

I recall you mentioning how you don't mind doing so much in post but it's really not necessary. Think of this as your time being money. The time you spend in post you can be spending in production somewhere else.

And the having a sound person thing (not that I'm necessarily advocating it in this situation) being more expensive, I'm gonna call you out and say it's a matter of you trying to put more money in your pocket. If I offend you with that comment, so be it.

Anna makes some points here.

I'm confused by the setup description. The original post said semi-circle. Later someone said a complete circle.

It comes down to the expectations of the inhouse client, how far away the people will be sitting from each other and the acoustical qualities of the space.

If it's a "just so we can hear something" thing then throw up some mics and go for it.

If it needs to be tight and right, you have to do more.

Finally, if it is in-house, he's prolly not pocketing any money by not hiring a sound person.

Regards,

Ty Ford

If it's a "just so we can hear something" thing then throw up some mics and go for it.

If it needs to be tight and right, you have to do more.


Ty, are you implying that booming wouldn't do a clean job? And if so, would you please elaborate? Minus the 8 wired/wireless lav option.

I would wire the moderator though.

Hi again,

Thanks loads for all the replies - discussing up-coming projects is really useful.

In terms of me pocketing more money. You're entirely right, I am pocketing more money by not using a sound recordist. But put it this way: if we were to use a sound recordist then I wouldn't make ANY money; all my profit would have to be spent on the sound recordist! And, as you said, time is money. This isn't a big-money gig.

Ty: the group will indeed be in a semicircle.

Regarding me jumping into frame to correct the mics: it shouldn't matter because I should be able to jump into frame between questions. The client isn't sure exactly how they wanted this project edited but it's almost certain that the final deliverable will be a bunch of 2-minute clips of the subjects discussing... i.e. I'll be able to cut round me jumping into shot.

Thanks again for all the discussion - this is great.

frankly , your camera has inputs for 2 mics and it is well enough.
just use sensitive omni condenser mic, each mounted on a small tripod (at knee level) in front of the guys.

It would be great if we could make this work. However, I fear that 2 omnis would pick up too much background noise. It's best to assume that these locations will be far from acoustically ideal - there will probably be reverb, traffic noise, dogs barking down the street etc.

I am actually planning to put 1 or 2 MKH40 cardioid mics on stands and record these to separate tracks (it looks like we'll usually only have 5 subjects... so my 8-track recorder would recorder the subjects' 5 lavs; the interviewer's lav and the 2 MKH40s). If the location is suitably quiet then maybe - just maybe - I will be able to use just the signal from the MKH40s and ignore the lavs. But it's unlikely. Especially as the MKH40s will be about 5 meters away from the subjects because mic stands aren't allowed to be in shot.

How about 1 handheld mic passed around?

Client has vetoed this option because it will disrupt the flow of conversation too much (with I agree with).

Hello Anna,

I try never to imply anything in forums because of the high possibility of not being clearly understood.

This thread, like a creek through a cow pasture, has meandered quite a lot.

All I'm saying is that if great audio isn't required and it's just a low down dirty shoot with some folks in a semi-circle and someone behind a podium, fageddabout doing it "right" and put up two room mics; one to each track of the camera, point and shoot.

You could use two locked down booms, provided you could put 'em out of frame. Seven people is a lot to cover with one mic, but you will hear them, and if that's all that's needed, you're done. I wouldn't do it that way, but that's just me.

Jack has the gear to iso the mics. He'll get better sound after he edits out the unneeded parts. It'll sound much better than two mics and his in house client will never really understand the lengths to which he went to make it sound as good as it does. They'll just take it for granted.

Regards,

Ty Ford