You can use CF card and HDV tape at the same time!

This is Japanease site;

http://www.sony.jp/CorporateCruise/Press/200711/07-1114/

more here...

http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.film-tv-video.de%2Fnewsdetail%2BM5540bdba1aa.html%3F%26tx_ttnews%255Bday%255D%3D14%26tx_ttnews%255Bmonth%255 D%3D11%26tx_ttnews%255Byear%255D%3D2007&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8

Translated to english as the original is german.

I like the modular approach with removable lens - that complicates matters a little for us potential ex purchasers :)

The price position is strange.. rather close to the EX1. I think most will go straight for the EX1. CF card storage is cheaper but a tad too slow..

I like the modular approach with removable lens - that complicates matters a little for us potential ex purchasers :)
But that is likely to increase the size and weight. A manual fixed lens has merit for a camera with this form factor.

But hybrid tape and Compact Flash!! Excellent - cheap solid state for speed of ingest advantages, yet simultaneous tape recording for archive. Now how long before Sony put CF slots on their Vaios...........

Holy.....! Didn't see that one coming! Simultaneous recording to tape and CF! How cool is that?!

I think most will go straight for the EX1. CF card storage is cheaper but a tad too slow..
But way more than fast enough for recording, and it depends which variety of CF you're talking about. Extreme IV is rated at 40MBs (320Mbs) so well over 10x HDV bitrates. Use cheaper Extreme III and it's 160Mbs, so still over 6x HDV speeds, and here you get the choice of which to use.

It makes me even more surprised that the EX doesn't use CF itself.

Remember that Grass Valleys Infinity records to CF as well, and that copes quite happily with 10-bit JPEG2000 footage.

It seems to be 1/3" chips, still HDV codec (which I'm not a fan of . . . 25mbps CBR) and CF card transfer time is much slower than SxS.

It looks to be an excellent HDV camera if one really likes that direction though.

While the EX1 competes with the HVX200. This camera seems to compete with the JVC 250.

My own hunch is that in about a year (NAB 2009?) we'll see an "EX2" with interchangeable lens and possibly XDCAM MPEG2 50mbps 4:2:2.

Competition is good and it looks like Sony is aggressively pursuing all competitors.

CF card transfer time is much slower than SxS

CF is fine for Infinity, so it will be fine for this. You won't get anywhere close to the maximum tyransfer speeds of any of these cards such as SxS until bottlenecks like hard drive speed are increased.

Pretty amazing. Sony release a camera that records onto media that you can purchase from any electronics store, and they still get moaned at!

Yes, it is HDV. But this is an established codec, with software that supports it across the board. The last thing we need right now is a new codec! For higher bitrates there is the EX etc.

This camera is for people that already work with HDV, who still work with tape, and who might also like to work tapelessly without having to change their workflow.

My query is: why did Sony opt for the highly expensive SxS card system for the EX1 and not for the much cheaper CF card system? Is it possible that the SxS cards are more robust and more error-free? I thought CF card video recording was not possible but both Sony and Infinity are proving otherwise.

CF is fine for Infinity, so it will be fine for this. You won't get anywhere close to the maximum tyransfer speeds of any of these cards such as SxS until bottlenecks like hard drive speed are increased.

Pretty amazing. Sony release a camera that records onto media that you can purchase from any electronics store, and they still get moaned at!

Yes, it is HDV. But this is an established codec, with software that supports it across the board. The last thing we need right now is a new codec! For higher bitrates there is the EX etc.

This camera is for people that already work with HDV, who still work with tape, and who might also like to work tapelessly without having to change their workflow.

This is precisely my case... I've been looking for a shoulder mount camera that can fit into my current workflow. The fact that it can also record to CF is a real plus... In fact I've wondered why this format was not looked at by manufacturers before..I guessed it was data rates.. but looks like I was wrong... I'm really looking forward to this camera.

Regards
Gareth

My query is: why did Sony opt for the highly expensive SxS card system for the EX1 and not for the much cheaper CF card system? Is it possible that the SxS cards are more robust and more error-free? I thought CF card video recording was not possible but both Sony and Infinity are proving otherwise.
The answer to the first question, I suspect, is because the EX is the first member of what will turn out to be a much larger family.

As far as robustness goes, CF have a proven track record with professional still photography, the branded cards at any rate. The error issue causes confusion: much flash memory may have bad memory locations, but these DO NOT cause data errors. Controlling electronics "maps" them out. You can get zero defect memory - but this gives no fewer DATA errors. It avoids the mapping processing, and is hence slightly faster. Nowadays the underlying performance is so good that the use of zero defect memory is hardly necessary.

As far as CF video recording goes, it's not just Sony and Infinity, but Convergent Design and Red as well. Not just CF either, SD is being used increasingly at the consumer end with AVC-HD.

Well if you follow the logic of an old hand I listened to yesterday this CF card thing is a bad move on Sony's part. He made an excellent point. He can rattle of EVERY recording format that Sony have used, and the final one that really gets him going is the very nice F23, records to the SR1 in a way that no other Sony deck can read. Really nice if you just paid a kings ransom for a HDCAM SR deck.

Panny on the other hand have 3 tape acquisition formats and one tapeless recording medium. Even their soon to be released uber expensive HD camera still uses P2 cards. Now personally I think P2 cards are past their use by date but Sony seem to be having a go at everything that comes along, what next, recording to Rev disks?

Still I'd take SxS cards over CF cards any day in a device where they're going to be swapped out very regularly.

I'm not quite sure the Infinity is selling as well as Panasonic P2 cameras or Sony XDCAM. That doesn't speak to the technology but clearly people aren't "jumping" to a camera because it uses CF.

This post is in the XDCAM EX thread so I can only assume it's for comparison otherwise it would be in the HDV thread.

Sony's Juan Martinez has said the EX1 WILL be able to take cheaper 8GB cards (now going for about $200) once they certify the specific cards and offer the EX1 firmware upgrade. While such cards may not be in the typical electronics store there certainly will be cheaper cards than the Sony/Sandisk SxS cards.

The MAIN difference will be transfer speed and that is certainly critical for some of us. Even with the "bottleneck" of the hard drive SxS transfer speed will be very fast.

That's not "moaning" it's just not the same target market and purpose.

XDCAM is also uses an "established" codec. It's a codec that handles certain things better than HDV. Again NOT necessarily the same target market so I'm not sure of your point here. Nothing unusual about using established codecs. P2 mxf is also established and so will AVC Intra.

RED will also do just fine with its proprietary codec.

If NLEs support it that'll do just fine. It's all workflow and NLE support IMHO.

I work in tape now and I don't want to work in HDV. To me, handing a client an HDV tape is a recipe for disaster. Between Canon, JVC and Sony so many formats don't match. Now that's an example of no "established" uniform tape deck that can handle all three variations.

CF is fine for Infinity, so it will be fine for this. You won't get anywhere close to the maximum tyransfer speeds of any of these cards such as SxS until bottlenecks like hard drive speed are increased.

Pretty amazing. Sony release a camera that records onto media that you can purchase from any electronics store, and they still get moaned at!

Yes, it is HDV. But this is an established codec, with software that supports it across the board. The last thing we need right now is a new codec! For higher bitrates there is the EX etc.

This camera is for people that already work with HDV, who still work with tape, and who might also like to work tapelessly without having to change their workflow.

Translated from Japanese:

NTSC color, EIA standard method, 1080/60 i system

1 / 3 type 3 KURIABIDDO CMOS sensor <br /> total pixels: about 1.12 million pixel effective pixels: 16:9 video shot at about 104 million pixels

minimum subject illumination 1.5lx　（1/30） 1.5 lx (lux) (1 / 30 second shutter speed fixed, auto - iris, OTOGEIN)

ND filter [1],[2]1/4、[3]1/16、[4]1/64 [1] Clear, [2] 1 / 4, [3] 1 / 16, [4] 1 / 64

Lens:
KARUTSAISURENZU KARUTSAISU "Barrio ZONA * T" lens
　 Focal Length f=4.4-52.8mm （35mm、16:9 f=32.0-384mm、 4:3 f=39.5-474mm） F = 4.4-52.8mm (35mm conversion, 16:9 at f = 32.0 - 384mm, 4:3 at f = 39.5 - 474mm)
Zoom Optical 12X
Focus AUTO / MANUAL AUTO / MANUAL
Blurring hand correction Optical hand deflection correction
Filter diameter 72mm 72 mm
HDMI OUT
2 XLR Inputs

Recording:
The physical format FAT32
File formats HDV MPEG2-TS（.m2t） MPEG2 - TS (. M2t)
DVCAM/DV DVCAM / DV AVI Type1（.AVI）/Raw DV（.DV） AVI Type1 (. AVI) / Raw DV (. DV)

Recording media (optional) Type1×133　2GB CompactFlash Type1 x 133 2GB or more
i.LINK Transfer rate (average) i.LINK connection when 110Mbps @×133/4GB 110 Mbps @ x 133/4GB
The corresponding video format HDV1080：60i/24p/30p DVCAM/DV：480/60i HDV1080: 60i/24p/30p DVCAM / DV: 480/60i
Recording mode (DVCAM/DV Interval (DVCAM / DV only), a loop, cash (approximately 14 seconds)
i.LINK I.LINK 6-pin x 1
Battery NP-F570/770/970 NP-F570/770/970 (optional)

I Know it is a bit scattered, it's the best I could do. Blurring hand correction is OIS.
No HD-SDI out on the Z7 as far as I can tell. Not native progressive, uses the 1080/60i "wrapper".

I'm not quite sure the Infinity is selling as well as Panasonic P2 cameras or Sony XDCAM.

Give it a chance. It isn't even on general sale yet! They are still filling backorders until the beginning of next year.

XDCAM is also uses an "established" codec.

The codec yes, but some who are in the market for an HDV camera might be using software like Premiere which doesn't natively support the XDCAM MXF format.

The HDV syle M2T file format can be used in pretty much every single NLE out there. And, like I said, this camera is for existing HDV owners who do not want to leave the security of tape altogether. Sony are making a very smooth path to tapeless for such people. That is why they are still releasing HDV cameras. They realise that a lot of people like to use tape, and there is still a market for it.

This is a cover all bases thing. If you don't want the HDV format or use CF, buy an EX1. Its simple. The entire reason behind what Sony is doing is to create a camera that suits every market level. This camera obviously doesn't suit you. So buy one of the other cameras. :)

I'm not quite sure the Infinity is selling as well as Panasonic P2 cameras or Sony XDCAM. That doesn't speak to the technology but clearly people aren't "jumping" to a camera because it uses CF.
Infinity has only just been released, so it's very early days yet. And SxS and P2 may be better suited to the higher end market, but (in the EX thread) we're talking about mid range product.
Sony's Juan Martinez has said the EX1 WILL be able to take cheaper 8GB cards (now going for about $200) once they certify the specific cards and offer the EX1 firmware upgrade. While such cards may not be in the typical electronics store there certainly will be cheaper cards than the Sony/Sandisk SxS cards.

The MAIN difference will be transfer speed and that is certainly critical for some of us. Even with the "bottleneck" of the hard drive SxS transfer speed will be very fast.

If the EX will take the cheaper cards it is obviously very good news. Use expensive cards when needed, and cheaper when possible. If it will take ExpressCards of a similar spec to the CF cards we're talking about at the same price, it makes the EX even more attractive.

But why wasn't this made crystal clear from the beginning by Sony?

I am really excited by this model, and see it is a complete compliment to the HVR-A1U that I already own and the PMW-EX1 that I am waiting for.

I just hope they make the body-only available, as I'd like to pair it with a good 35mm adapter and some primes.

I like to shoot travelogue films, and see myself using this when I have the time and opportunity to carefully set-up shots. That unfortunately is only about 25% of the time, so the EX1 will be used when I need to shoot quickly, and for landscapes and other shots where a super-tight DoF isn't critical.

Finally I still see the HVR-A1U as an important tool in my workflow, despite not having a full-quality 24P mode. It makes a very discrete and lightweight camera that I can get into places that the bigger cams will not. It also sits very comfortably on a small hand-held steady-cam I like use, and can even be brought in to do pretty respectable 1080x1920 timelapse shots using it's still-shot mode.

Now I just have to get permission from my fiancee for another camera :(

Would these be considered the 4th generation HDV camcorders?

1st gen - jvc
2nd gen - sony fx1/z1
3rd gen - canon a1/g1/xlh1, sony v1u/fx7
4th gen - sony ex/z7

??

No HD-SDI out on the Z7 as far as I can tell. Not native progressive, uses the 1080/60i "wrapper".

When you record 24p to tape, pulldown is used.

When you 24p record to CF, pulldown seems not to be used.

My concern -- given how close the handheld price is to the EX1, why wouldn't I go with the far better EX1? Now, if the handheld were $3500, then it makes it much more reasonable.

And, $10K for ANY 1/3-inch Sensor camcorder? The DSR-250 was only about $7000 MSRP. This is a replacement for it, so it should be priced no higher!

Of course it's possible these prices are positioned for an exchange rate of 100-yen to the dollar.

My concern -- given how close the handheld price is to the EX1, why wouldn't I go with the far better EX1?
That had occurred to me as well. I think the answer must be that for some work the absolute quality is less important than the workflow, so the CF/tape simultaneous ability, and the ability to make a tape backup/archive at the time of shooting is more important for some than 1/2" chips, 35Mbs etc.

Be nice to have cake and eat it though.......

That had occurred to me as well. I think the answer must be that for some work the absolute quality is less important than the workflow, so the CF/tape simultaneous ability, and the ability to make a tape backup/archive at the time of shooting is more important for some than 1/2" chips, 35Mbs etc.

Be nice to have cake and eat it though.......

I agree - and presumably they are pitched at the JVC user's workflow and now provide an alternative mount for (relatively) inexpensive lens experimentation. I wouldn't mind having both the EX1 and the new 270 but since I can only choose one, may take the EX1. But the decision has become harder though. Why? Well I am as likely to shoot factual as non-factual content and seemingly all these new Sony cams bring a lot of welcome choice to the sector of the mini-indie production house. At least around these parts.

Hmm.

Justin.

I agree - and presumably they are pitched at the JVC user's workflow ...........
The JVC 250 with Firestore I'd agree can be a useful combination for the same reasons, but this CF recorder now seems to have the edge - likely to have lower power consumption (so no more noisy cooling fans?), and removable solid state media - makes me wonder what JVC will do next, and when?

When you record 24p to tape, pulldown is used.

When you 24p record to CF, pulldown seems not to be used.

My concern -- given how close the handheld price is to the EX1, why wouldn't I go with the far better EX1? Now, if the handheld were $3500, then it makes it much more reasonable.

And, $10K for ANY 1/3-inch Sensor camcorder? The DSR-250 was only about $7000 MSRP. This is a replacement for it, so it should be priced no higher!

Of course it's possible these prices are positioned for an exchange rate of 100-yen to the dollar.

If the same MAP discount formula is applied to this camera as they used on the EX1, 83% of List, it should street for about $5300 USD.

With Sony releasing all of this new stuff, I wonder how long before all of the others will be releasing new products? My "Spidey Sense" tells me 2008 will be a great year for video.

David,

I heard Juan Martinez say this about the cheaper cards at DVExpo East months ago (I had forgot his name though). Many others on this and other forums claimed they had spoken to Sony reps and said they WOULD NOT be supporting the cheaper cards. What I can say is I heard Juan Martinez say it in then and I heard him say it again now.

Why others are hearing and claiming other things, I don't know.

The absents of an overt marketing statement may have been because Sony had to confirm the firmware upgrade was the viable solution and that there needed to be some way within Sony to certify to the end user which cards would/won't work. My speculation here but I'm sure they had things to work about before explaining how such compatibility would be worked out, if at all possible.

He did make clear that it would require a firmware upgrade and that Sony would certify cards since some won't meet the specs. That was new information. Given JM's position at Sony I can safely assume both his verbal and Power Point presentation were approved by Sony.

Infinity has only just been released, so it's very early days yet. And SxS and P2 may be better suited to the higher end market, but (in the EX thread) we're talking about mid range product.

If the EX will take the cheaper cards it is obviously very good news. Use expensive cards when needed, and cheaper when possible. If it will take ExpressCards of a similar spec to the CF cards we're talking about at the same price, it makes the EX even more attractive.

But why wasn't this made crystal clear from the beginning by Sony?

There are people who won't get the EX1 because it neither records to tape nor records Standard Def. Others insist on interchangeable lenses.

Some would have liked all that in the EX1. For them though there's the F355 (disc, not tape though). I wouldn't be surprised if they'll be some sort of F355 replacement that'll use SxS too or an EX2 which will include some of the above features.

In the near future people can choose between the Z7 or EX1. For me, the EX1 is a CLEAR choice. The only thing I like more about the Z7 is the interchangeable lens but that's really not that important to me compared to the other features.

That had occurred to me as well. I think the answer must be that for some work the absolute quality is less important than the workflow, so the CF/tape simultaneous ability, and the ability to make a tape backup/archive at the time of shooting is more important for some than 1/2" chips, 35Mbs etc.

Be nice to have cake and eat it though.......

The way I see it is with the EX introduction and its better low light capabilities, the CMOS chips will probably show up in a 330/350 style camera.

It makes more sense from a financial point of view as Sony makes these chips for the 35mm still cameras as well.

I would be happy with a fixed lens (20x5.5) with a shoulder mount.

So one could have a big gun and an EX or two for events.

Plus, I would guess Panasonic has to be working on some new cameras with higher resolution chips as well.

So 2008 has some real potential to be the year to move to HD with some more choices.

The way I see it is with the EX introduction and its better low light capabilities, the CMOS chips will probably show up in a 330/350 style camera.

It makes more sense from a financial point of view as Sony makes these chips for the 35mm still cameras as well.

Reading the quote from the Sony engineer at the French XDCAM show, we may not see CMOS in the higher end Sony cameras, as he implied CCD for broadcast; CMOS for lower-end.

Does anyone know why so few CMOS implementations use global shutter?

Apparently there are more issues with CMOS as you go up in scale. Don't know what the technicals of this are though.

To be honest I don't really care if there's a miniature bloke sat inside the camera drawing pictures of what he sees as long as the results look good.

To be honest I don't really care if there's a miniature bloke sat inside the camera drawing pictures of what he sees as long as the results look good.

I have that camera. Feeding the guy is expensive...the little guy can really eat. i agree with Simon.

CCD's have problems with dead pixels and vertical smear, CMOS have problems with rolling shutter, blah, blah, blah. Tape has drop outs, film has scratches or a hair in the gate, CF can have a corrupted file. Good lord.

There will always be a tech issue that one needs to work around,

I'm sure the Exmor and Clearvid CMOS looks fine 99.999999% of the time.

Cheers.

Hey, he's supposed to be working inside my camera! How much did you pay him you fiend?! ;-)

To be honest I don't really care if there's a miniature bloke sat inside the camera drawing pictures of what he sees as long as the results look good.

LOL
Thanks, that made my day!
Agree with you 100%

When you record 24p to tape, pulldown is used.

When you 24p record to CF, pulldown seems not to be used.

Pulldown is used even direct to flash. The data on the CF card is exactly what you would get on a HDV tape.

Sorry to burst that bubble.

That had occurred to me as well. I think the answer must be that for some work the absolute quality is less important than the workflow, so the CF/tape simultaneous ability, and the ability to make a tape backup/archive at the time of shooting is more important for some than 1/2" chips, 35Mbs etc.

Be nice to have cake and eat it though.......

Its all about the workflow... and the "known quantity" of tape.

Almost everybody excited about this camera and the 270 talked gleefully about how they need tape, and the Sony reps relied with something along the lines of, "you are the type of person we made this camera for."

I heard a lot of talk about handing the client a tape at the end of the shoot too.

Nobody I talked to there even noticed the image issues I noted- and when I pointed them out none of these excited folk cared one whit. "Its good enough for me," was a common refrain.

Reading the quote from the Sony engineer at the French XDCAM show, we may not see CMOS in the higher end Sony cameras, as he implied CCD for broadcast; CMOS for lower-end.

Does anyone know why so few CMOS implementations use global shutter?

Well, having seen them side by side I can safely say that the EX1 is a better match for the F900R than the 355, and a better image overall- despite better glass on the 355.

The EX1 does have a rolling shutter... but this isn't at all like the rolling shutters you are used to.

In order to see the slightest skewing I had to whip the camera around so fast I hurt my wrist. I won't be doing that very often.

Not to mention that the whole image was a blur at those pan speeds.

BHPhoto has the cam on there web page. Price TBA


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/532558-REG/Sony_HVR_Z7U_HVRZ7U_1080i_HDV_CAMCORDER.html