Iam looking for a good lcd monitor for color correcting and field work. I been thinking about Jvc DTV20L1U 20. But iam not sure. Just so you now iam using jvc gyhd100 for shooting. I also wonder if its possible to plug the jvc DTV20L1U 20 directly to the graphic card and still have good color correcting ?

Is there any better monitors out there for the same monney or is this the best i can get.

Thanks

samsung 225mw has all inputs (components, hdmi, DVI, VGA).
it is a 22" ,a bit big but great for HD monitoring.

but is it good for color correcting hdv footage ?

once calibrated it should be ok

You also may want to take a look at the Sony LMD-2030W monitor as well.
It has everything that you would need as well.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/494605-REG/Sony_LMD2030W_LMD_2030W_LUMA_Series_20_.html

I'm debating between this monitor and a Sharp LCD LC-20D42U Aquos TV.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/481547-REG/Sharp_LC20D42U_LC_20D42U_20_Widescreen_LCD.html

Both have good blacks which is the most important for me.
I have hard that the Sony has excellent blacks for an LCD monitor.

I'm leaning LCD, because that's what most of my footage is going to end up being viewed on anyway.

I have hard that the Sony has excellent blacks for an LCD monitor.
I've never heard that... most people complain about the blacks being too high/bright compared to a CRT.

2- That particular Sony panel doesn't have at least 1920x1080 pixels. I wouldn't bother with it since you don't get full resolution *and* you will be seeing scaling artifacts that aren't there in your footage.

3- The ecinemasys panels might also be worth looking at if you can get a demo of them.

I've never heard that... most people complain about the blacks being too high/bright compared to a CRT.

2- That particular Sony panel doesn't have at least 1920x1080 pixels. I wouldn't bother with it since you don't get full resolution *and* you will be seeing scaling artifacts that aren't there in your footage.

3- The ecinemasys panels might also be worth looking at if you can get a demo of them.

Any idea on the pricing for the eCinema series (mainly the FX) displays?

I realize that CRT monitors will yield better blacks than LCD displays. I curently use an external CRT production monitor to preview and color correct my SD footage. But need a good affordable option to preview my HD footage along with my Black Magic Intensity Pro card (preferably HDMI).

My main concern with using an external monitor will be for color correcting only. Space is an issue in my work area so a 35-40 monitor for previewing (to go along with my 24' Dell monitor) is out of the question.
I prefer keeping the display size to 20' or so, but will most likely have to move to a 24' to get 1920 x 1080 resolution. I don't want to get another Dell monitor, as the blacks won't be good enough. So I'm looking for another solution that gives me good (they don't have to be great) blacks.

BTW, I mentioned the Sharp LC-20D42U, because of it's 1200:1 Contrast Ratio. So I figured that the color levels would have better seperation, especially in the blacks.

Would a Matrox MXO do the trick, or should my BM IntensityPro card (via HDMI) be sufficient?

I do event videography, so most, if not all of my footage will be viewed on conusmer LCD/Plasma displays. So most people won't be viewing proper blacks anyway. Hell, I'd be happy if their sets were properly calibrated, even for color.

1-don't concern yourself with the contrast ratio once you get over about 700:1. Any LCD's with higher contrast will be dialed back if you calibrate your monitor with a cal tool like spyder or eye-1.

2-avoid any LCD monitor that's built with a "tn" panel in it. "tn" panels don't reproduce the full rgb color gamut, even when calibrated. Look for a monitor that uses an SPVA panel. If you want to know which brand and model LCD has what kind of panel, look here:
http://www.flatpanels.dk/panels.php

3-many manufacturers don't specify how many colors are reproduced. if they say it reproduces millions of colors, you're probably OK.

The FX series displays are something like the ballpark of $4k??? You're better off contacting them and see if you can get a demo, or if they have dealers that can give you a demo (especially in comparison to other monitors you might be looking at).

2- Depending on what NLE + OS you are on (and other factors), the output of your video card may or may not be accurate.

Monitoring from HD-SDI would avoid these issues (but then you need a HD-SDI card; I'm not sure if the BM Intensity might work for you).

3- Some of the consumer TVs out there may do some pretty wacky stuff to your image. This is not what you want in a monitor. So I'd be wary of them.
Most broadcast monitors don't do that stuff (some of the earliest Lumas did some pretty wacky stuff... like LCD burn).

I realize that CRT monitors will yield better blacks than LCD displays.
In a bright office-type environment, I find that my computer LCD outperforms the CRT. In a dimmed environment (which is more correct if you set it up along the lines of SMPTE RP 162/166 [I can't remember the #]), then the CRT will have the edge. I wouldn't worry too much about the blacks though... most LCD monitors have color issues (e.g. s-shaped transfer function that can be calibrated away). If the primaries aren't extremely close to Rec. 709, then you'll have inaccurate color. If you calibrate that off (assuming the monitor's gamut exceeds 709), then your color will be fine... but not all monitors can do that right (e.g. the old Lumas didn't do that correctly).

4- I haven't sat down and really compared the monitors in question (e.g. running material through them and seeing if they introduce defects that aren't there, whether they are accurate, whether they look similar to a reference-grade CRT, etc.) so sorry if I can't make a particular recommendation.

I'm confused.

Is there a serious problem with your camera's ability to discern/ render colour?

If so, maybe get your camera checked.

I have no knowledge of the camera you have, but am not aware that there is any camera out there that has colour so bad it needs monitoring in the field. I could, however, be sadly mistaken.

As for "back at base' well, what do you want? You can have a full blown "Studio" beast costing thousands, or, depending on where, exactly, your footage is to be shown, a good, 'ol fashioned, common or garden "telly" that just shows it like it is.

Coming back to this "colour correcting", why, exactly, do you think this is necessary?

Correct it for what, exactly?

As I say, I'm confused. I see posts here all the time talking about "colour correction", but fail to see just what, really, needs correcting.

If you ain't working for the Beeb or some other big time network (who will do whatever anyway), what is the point?

Most punters wouldn't know "true colour" if it sat up, bit them on the bum and then scampered away again.

Please excuse me if my ignorance has led me wide of the mark here, but this business of "colour correction" seems to have taken on the proportions of lens "bokah" (fercryingoutloud) and a host of other video "total myths for average video producers" that is diverting people from actually doing "real" stuff, as opposed to just "**nking about it".


Just my 2 cents worth.


CS

Chris,
short answer...very short....nothing's perfect, no camera in the world will capture a perfect scene every time. Mistakes happen, tungsten WB instead of outdoor WB, etc., etc. Mistakes happen all the time and need to be fixed in post. Scenes have too much contrast or not enough contrast(lighting errors) and the gamma curve is stretched in post causing color shifts, etc etc etc. If you don't apply some CC in post, you're ignoring a very powerful tool. Learn to use the color curve tool, it's indespensable. Unfortunately, the curves tool causes color shifts.

And the list goes on and on and on...

i just need to add a question. Can i buy the jvc DT-V20L1DU instead of DT-V20L1D even if iam living in europe. It would save me alot of money if i could buy it from US.

I'm confused.

Is there a serious problem with your camera's ability to discern/ render colour?

If so, maybe get your camera checked.

Most on camera displays and viewfinders don't display correct color. In fact some of them display color that is very inaccurate. I've seen what was bright green on a camera LCD show as bright yellow on a studio CRT.

Cameras in the sub $20K USD price range should not be trusted for color or exposure. They are suited only for framing, and in some cases focus. Higher end cameras come with much better color imaging on board- but even they can't be trusted for accurate exposure and color- they just get you closer.

This isn't to say that they are useless, we've all needed to use them, and I've certainly been in the situation where the on camera LCD was the best monitor on set... but you need to be sensitive to the fact that they are imprecise.

As for "back at base' well, what do you want? You can have a full blown "Studio" beast costing thousands, or, depending on where, exactly, your footage is to be shown, a good, 'ol fashioned, common or garden "telly" that just shows it like it is.

You should have both.

The consumer television will give you a good indication of what your customers will see in the home. The problem is that your images will look very different on a Sony than they do on a Sharp or on a Samsung, etc etc.

This is because each manufacturer uses different electronic processing to your image in order to make it look "better." While your images may look great on your "telly" they may look like total shit on your neighbors, or on the office projector.

A production monitor can show you the actual images you captured accurately. This can be used as the basis for making your video conform to standards. Video that conforms to standards will display correctly on any TV or projector your customers happen to have.

If your work is to be broadcast there are laws that govern the technical specifications of your image. In the United States a broadcaster can lose their license if the video they broadcast doesn't conform to these standards.

As a result, broadcasters have ways of "fixing" your video- but they aren't worried about making your video look good, or even decent. Their only concern is keeping their license. I'm sure you remember seeing the resulting horrible commercials for local businesses.

For that matter you should also be using waveform and vectorscope monitors in the NLE to help diagnose image problems. You should be using them on set to prevent them in the first place.

You may be interested to know that a "Studio beast" of a monitor, like the Sony LMD LUMA series, include waveform and vectorscope functions.

Coming back to this "colour correcting", why, exactly, do you think this is necessary?

Correct it for what, exactly?

Well I have already talked about technical image problems.

How about I talk instead about artistry and craftsmanship. I could write reams and reams, but why don't you just watch this instead.

http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/action/?movie=coenbrothers

Then you may want to take a look at this

http://www.autodesk.com/us/lustre/tutorial-2007-01-23/

I most ask another question so i can order my monitor. Witch one of the sony Lmb luma 20 or JVC DT-V20L1DU 20 would you prefer to buy. the are at almost the same price tag. So i don't now what to chose.

Thanks

Alexander,
I wouldn't use a consumer monitor in the field for color... they can give you an inaccurate sense of the color and lead you towards the wrong exposure and lighting decisions. One Sony consumer CRT I've used for example will make the image look way brighter than it actually is.

For framing... figure out what sort of overscan the monitor is doing.

2- Many high-end HD cameras have black & white viewfinders... even for those cameras, the on-board monitoring tends to be poor.

Jonas,
1- Check what brokerage fees, customs, and taxes you have to pay for importing items.

The brokerage fees will depend on the shipping service. Unfortunately for my country, information on these fees is difficult to find! I do not know how things work for Sweden, but you should check these fees to make sure you won't end up paying more.

2-
I haven't worked with many of the newer panels in question so I can't give you very good advice about what to get... other than to avoid monitors that don't have at least 1920x1080+ pixels... they will never deliver full resolution and will have scaling artifacts. I believe the JVC DT-V20L1DU only uses 1680 x 945 (Video) when displaying video... I would avoid that model.

There is a review of the JVC DT-V24L1D monitor:
http://www.dv.com/reviews/reviews_item.php?articleId=196602806

Alexander,
I wouldn't use a consumer monitor in the field for color... they can give you an inaccurate sense of the color and lead you towards the wrong exposure and lighting decisions. One Sony consumer CRT I've used for example will make the image look way brighter than it actually is.

I am afraid you've entirely misunderstood me.

I agree with you to a great degree.

That may be why I started by saying that you should use both consumer and professional monitoring.

I then then continued to talk about the problems with consumer monitors.

Where I wasn't clear is that I do not advocate consumer monitors on set or in the field.

I've used them as a last resort- but they always cause about as many problems as they solve- doubly so if I have "producers" around who have no understanding of the image.

I do advoate having a consumer TV in the studio, but I wouldn't use it for primary monitoring, but rather as an adjunct "see what the end user gets" kind of monitor.

Its kind of the same thing at a broadcast facility where they get a consumer TV and tune their own broadcast in.

Professional monitors can lead you into making too precise an image- one that won't reproduce well for viewers in the home. You need to check that. There are many variations of this one simple pitfall.

For framing... figure out what sort of overscan the monitor is doing.

A hundred times no. That leads to "guesstimating" the edges of a frame which is not acceptable.

Consumer monitors are better than nothing- but they aren't very good at all.

When framing in the field most decent cameras will show the full frame, and I trust that. I use pro monitors otherwise.

2- Many high-end HD cameras have black & white viewfinders... even for those cameras, the on-board monitoring tends to be poor.
articleId=196602806[/url]

Well, you better tell that to the camera manufacturers, because I was using a color viewfinder on a fairly old F900 recently. And a Varicam. I used Color viewfinders with everything Panasonic was showing at GV Expo (HPX500, HPX2000 and HPX3000.) Sony showed their F900R at GV Expo, with a color finder.

So off hand I'd say you were mistaken.

To be fair, in the early days of HD color viewfinders were an expensive option.

As to the quality... it depends on what you are talking about.

With HD You can't always accurately judge focus, even on a full raster HD monitor. I pretty much always tape the distance and use the lens marks.

Color and framing are pretty damn good on high end viewfinders. You can't use them for fine control, but you can trust them to be accurate within their limits.

Of course you have better test the viewfinder and learn its limits so the operator can make a judgement.

Iam looking for a good lcd monitor for color correcting and field work. I been thinking about Jvc DTV20L1U 20. But iam not sure. Just so you now iam using jvc gyhd100 for shooting. I also wonder if its possible to plug the jvc DTV20L1U 20 directly to the graphic card and still have good color correcting ?

Is there any better monitors out there for the same monney or is this the best i can get.

Thanks

The monitor I am considering most seriously is the Sony LUMA series, LMD 2450WHD.

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/DisplayModel?m=10007&p=8&sp=20131&id=88797&navid=luma_sony_professional_lcd_monitors

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/docs/brochures/luma_familycatalog07.pdf

This is a full raster 1920x1200 monitor. It includes waveform and vectorscope functions, and a bevy of inputs, including an HD-SDI option board. Retail the monitor is $4100. (Both Abel and B&H have it at that price now.)

If you really don't need HD SDI you can save some coin and get the 2450W, which does not include the HD SDI option board. Should be about $800 less.

I do recommend a full raster monitor for HD shooting. At this stage I'd be looking to buy 1080p capable monitors

Monitors in this price range are 8 bit monitors with "16 Million colors"

10 bit monitors, like the Sony BVM L230, are quite a bit more expensive at this point. ($25000 USD) Of course if you are doing high end DI and grading then this is the right tool, though I wouldn't call it.

That leads to "guesstimating" the edges of a frame which is not acceptable.
What I was saying is that if you *had* to use a consumer monitor, you should learn what the overscan is so that you have a reasonable idea as to the framing. Then again, it probably isn't a good idea since other people on set (e.g. director, DP) may not be familiar with that monitor and make the wrong framing decisions.

Anyways I think we agree here.

2- Black and white viewfinders:
I am probably thinking more about the early days of HD, where there was HD cameras that shipped with black and white CRT viewfinders (since it gives you higher resolution compared to a color CRT, and small CRTs have lower resolution to begin with).

I been thinking alot about what monitor to go for under the last days. And i whant to but the sony lmb 24 monitor, but i dosent have the money to buy it in sweden. So i will go for something for a little less money.Any advice ?

Tanks

What I was saying is that if you *had* to use a consumer monitor, you should learn what the overscan is so that you have a reasonable idea as to the framing. Then again, it probably isn't a good idea since other people on set (e.g. director, DP) may not be familiar with that monitor and make the wrong framing decisions.

Anyways I think we agree here.

Yeah, we do.

I'll give you another way for a beginner to use a consumer monitor. I had the opposite problem, I was very unsure where the "home" TV screen edge was, i.e. what was safe. The camera had no safe marking/graticule so I had to do something. I also had brightness/exposure problems and focus issues.

So, I got a little black and white CRT from Radio Shack. It was a terrible little thing. It had about the smallest viewable region I'd ever seen though. My thinking was that if framing was OK in the viewfinder and on that TV, it would work just about anywhere. Turns out I was right.

As far as focus, it had better resolution than my viewfinder... enough so focus was always spot on with it.

Finally exposure. Having two monitors I intentionally set them both wrong. I set the viewfinder up to show me the highlights- since I had zebras. Then I set the TV p so it showed me the shadow areas better, but still gave me as good a picture as it could.

So, as bad as that TV was, a little understanding of my problems in camera operation and intelligent use of the monitors I had helped me learn.

To address your other point: That sort of thing only works in a one man band production. If I had other people around I just left that monitor at home and made them trust me and what I was seeing through the finder.

I've learned that it is folly to have people who don't understand the image around and give them the opportunity to "advise" on the image.

I been thinking alot about what monitor to go for under the last days. And i whant to but the sony lmb 24 monitor, but i dosent have the money to buy it in sweden. So i will go for something for a little less money.Any advice ?

Well, you could try a computer monitor.

A full raster image is so much more important than anything else for HD monitoring.

If your camera has HDMI output, get a computer monitor with HDMI or a converter cable. Test carefully, then you are off.

When testing check for differences in the frame edges between the display and your captured material. (Do these tests near your NLE.)

You could be monitoring with a $700 USD or lower investment.

It is important that you DO NOT use a consumer HDTV. They often cut off the edges of the image.

If you have SDI output, then invest in a converter box.

$445 USD gets you the Black Magic HD Link, which converts HD SDI into DVI-D and HDMI

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hdlink/

I think the AJA HDP converter offers you more if you have to monitor SD SDI. It also allows you to pass the SDI signal through, with two SDI outputs. It doesn't offer HDMI output though. I think its $695 USD- but check the prices.

http://www.aja.com/html/products_converters_HDP.html

With one of these and a good monitor you can be doing quality monitoring for under $1400 for SDI equipped cameras.

Lastly if you have analog component video output from the camera there are no cheap converters I would trust.

I tried a couple of computer monitors with component inputs with the HVX200 and was sorely disappointed in the monitoring result- save your coin.

The solution I was considering was an AJA ioHD to a computer monitor over HDMI. (keyword was, I am no longer considering cameras with analog component output as their primary HD monitoring)

If you use Macintosh systems for editing, you also get a nice 10bit 4:2:2 capture option for your HD. At $3495 ($2999 if you buy right now!)

Of course if you really want just monitoring, then at those prices you might as well get the LMD 2450, it will give you a better picture than a computer monitor.

I am in complete agreement with Bill on this. Although an LCD monitor is supposed to be the last resort in checking your picture, it is still completely necessary. A small 3.5" LCD or the viewfinder is not going to be sharp enough for you to know if your picture is exactly where it should be. It doesn't matter what the technician does to "fix" the camera. Here is a perfect example: When you look at that little 3.5" LCD on your camera, turn it upward or downward a hair. You will notice the picture changes. This is indicative that it's not reliable, because it's from a point of view perspective. A larger LCD HD Monitor will help you in eyeballing things.

Chris,
short answer...very short....nothing's perfect, no camera in the world will capture a perfect scene every time. Mistakes happen, tungsten WB instead of outdoor WB, etc., etc. Mistakes happen all the time and need to be fixed in post. Scenes have too much contrast or not enough contrast(lighting errors) and the gamma curve is stretched in post causing color shifts, etc etc etc. If you don't apply some CC in post, you're ignoring a very powerful tool. Learn to use the color curve tool, it's indespensable. Unfortunately, the curves tool causes color shifts.

And the list goes on and on and on...